Hampshire & Solent Mayor. Transport priorities?

[fandroid]

The shadow Hampshire & Solent authority is currently now being set up. Mayoral elections not too far away.

What do forum members think should be priorities for transport improvements in the area?

To me the obvious one has always been the coastal route between Southampton and Portsmouth. It's intensely built up all the way between the two cities, and dependent on a slowish winding rail route that hugs the coast plus a not very useful combination of routes that meet at Eastleigh. The old A27 road is well overloaded, as is the M27 at times.

IoW residents would scream "better ferry services" at this point. Anyone who follows IoW news will know how unreliable both main ferry operators can be at critical moments.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Another Hayling Island road link

 

[brad465]

Well the obvious will be reinstating the Hythe rail link, particularly for the housing going in round there, but this has of course already been discussed at length here.

How easily could a tram network be built through Southampton to serve the University, northern and eastern suburbs?

 

[fandroid]

Well the obvious will be reinstating the Hythe rail link, particularly for the housing going in round there, but this has of course already been discussed at length here.

Just sorting out the Hythe Ferry on a sustainable basis would be a big step forward!

 

[devon_belle]

How easily could a tram network be built through Southampton to serve the University, northern and eastern suburbs?

Lots of wide avenues. I could think of worse places for a tram.

 

[MartinC]

Well the obvious will be reinstating the Hythe rail link, particularly for the housing going in round there, but this has of course already been discussed at length here.

How easily could a tram network be built through Southampton to serve the University, northern and eastern suburbs?

Why not the "western" suburbs, bearing in mind the inclusion of the Waterside as part of Southampton?

 

[geoffk]

Any chance of reviving the Fareham, Gosport and Portsmouth tramway via tunnel under the harbour? Cancelled by Transport Secretary Alistair Darling 20 years ago, I seem to remember.

 

[fgwrich]

Having a half hourly stopper from Southampton to Portsmouth would be a boost that’s for sure. SWR were talking about it a few years ago and subsequently dropped it, annoyingly because of the somewhat crazy plan to divert the second Weymouth to Waterloo service to Portsmouth & Southsea instead.

 

[swt_passenger]

Having a half hourly stopper from Southampton to Portsmouth would be a boost that’s for sure. SWR were talking about it a few years ago and subsequently dropped it, annoyingly because of the somewhat crazy plan to divert the second Weymouth to Waterloo service to Portsmouth & Southsea instead.

Is it even possible to fit in a second all station stopper with the current 2 Southern services moved to half an hour apart, and the hourly GWR service?

There was once an option in an RUS to have both SWT and SN doing various skip stopping patterns, a sort of 2 from 3 stations pattern, so they’d all have similar running times. But there’d be no single train stopping everywhere, although you’d still be able to travel between neighbouring stations, but using particular services. Difficult to explain in a few words, but hopefully that’s enough…

 

[devon_belle]

Is it even possible to fit in a second all station stopper with the current 2 Southern services moved to half an hour apart, and the hourly GWR service?

I think not without signalling improvements. Happy to be corrected though.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think not without signalling improvements. Happy to be corrected though.

That’s what I thought too, IIRC the signalling headway down to Fareham is about 6 mins, and although colour lights it’s only a two-aspect route, so that’ll probably define why the stopper leaves about 8 mins after the previous SN service; I understand they don’t plan services on the exact headways anyway, but perhaps someone could confirm?

I have only checked a handful of timings, but the SN services usually take 24 mins to Fareham, with one stop at Swanwick, the GWR is 25 mins, non-stop, and the SWR takes 34 minutes.

Once at Fareham there’s also the Waterloo via Eastleigh in the mix. On the Netley line I haven’t looked at freight or ECS moves, and I believe from previous discussions there’s a WTT path for diversions away from the main Woking to Southampton route.

 

[Kite159]

In theory the 2nd stopper between Fareham & Southampton could use the bay platform at Fareham rather than continuing into the congested Portsmouth area., but it will probably require some resignalling to allow extra trains to run.

 

[JonathanH]

In theory the 2nd stopper between Fareham & Southampton could use the bay platform at Fareham rather than continuing into the congested Portsmouth area., but it will probably require some resignalling to allow extra trains to run.

I would be sceptical that a Southampton to Fareham service could pass a business case, as it would be heavily dependent on Southampton demand.

 

[Nammer]

Sort out the rail service at Cosham to/from Portsmouth. You have the 1Txx go down to Portsmouth Hbr at xx00, followed by the 2Exx to Portsmouth S/s at xx14. Many times if the 1Txx is more than 14 minutes late on the down it will skip Cosham! And in the other direction it's 1Txx from Portsmouth Hbr at xx55 and 2Exx from Portsmouth S/s at xx46. 2 trains both directions within 14 minutes! And before anyone says about the GWR, during the main daytime on Mon-Fri there are now 3 hours that they don't call at Cosham, goodness only knows why! I have contacted GWR who ignorantly have not responded as to why those daytime trains no longer call there. I have now contacted my MP, so I hope they will respond to her.

 

[swt_passenger]

Sort out the rail service at Cosham to/from Portsmouth. You have the 1Txx go down to Portsmouth Hbr at xx00, followed by the 2Exx to Portsmouth S/s at xx14. Many times if the 1Txx is more than 14 minutes late on the down it will skip Cosham! And in the other direction it's 1Txx from Portsmouth Hbr at xx55 and 2Exx from Portsmouth S/s at xx46. 2 trains both directions within 14 minutes! And before anyone says about the GWR, during the main daytime on Mon-Fri there are now 3 hours that they don't call at Cosham, goodness only knows why! I have contacted GWR who ignorantly have not responded as to why those daytime trains no longer call there. I have now contacted my MP, so I hope they will respond to her.

The two SWR trains used to be about half an hour apart from Cosham to Portsmouth, but the Southampton stopper was moved round the clock face to allow the 2 SN Brighton services to run exactly 30 mins apart. To go back to the spaced out SWR the SN timetable wouldn’t work all the way to Brighton. I think all you can hope for is GW reinstatement.

 

[brad465]

Why not the "western" suburbs, bearing in mind the inclusion of the Waterside as part of Southampton?

A link up to Nursling could be viable, possibly terminating at the large distribution hub business park by the M27. There might be something in a tram link to Hammonds Green, but otherwise the west is best served by the railway.

 

[HamBuoy]

I would be sceptical that a Southampton to Fareham service could pass a business case, as it would be heavily dependent on Southampton demand.

I tend to agree but I do wonder if a Hythe to Fareham service would be beneficial for mobility across Southampton. It would also increase the frequency of services on the Netley line.

Another priority should be finding a sustainable way to restart the Hythe ferry. Previously this has been a "shrug-of-war" between Southampton and New Forest councils. If both sides now fall under the Combined Authority then should be more political will to find a solution.

 

[swt_passenger]

I tend to agree but I do wonder if a Hythe to Fareham service would be beneficial for mobility across Southampton. It would also increase the frequency of services on the Netley line.

But it’s not at all easy to increase frequency on the Netley line, as we’ve been discussing. Long signal headways, another all stations is not practical. Hythe is not electrified, so are you suggesting a DMU is used? Too slow for a stopper. All previous proposals for rail to Hythe have been for a stand alone service only as far as Southampton P5.

Another priority should be finding a sustainable way to restart the Hythe ferry. Previously this has been a "shrug-of-war" between Southampton and New Forest councils. If both sides now fall under the Combined Authority then should be more political will to find a solution.

I think they‘d stick with subsidising the buses, once they realise the cost of the ferry.

 

[MartinC]

But it’s not at all easy to increase frequency on the Netley line, as we’ve been discussing. Long signal headways, another all stations is not practical. Hythe is not electrified, so are you suggesting a DMU is used? Too slow for a stopper. All previous proposals for rail to Hythe have been for a stand alone service only as far as Southampton P5.

I think they‘d stick with subsidising the buses, once they realise the cost of the ferry.

I tend to agree but I do wonder if a Hythe to Fareham service would be beneficial for mobility across Southampton. It would also increase the frequency of services on the Netley line.

Another priority should be finding a sustainable way to restart the Hythe ferry. Previously this has been a "shrug-of-war" between Southampton and New Forest councils. If both sides now fall under the Combined Authority then should be more political will to find a solution.

Two of the significant contributions to the "loss" of the Hythe Ferry had nothing to do with either council. When the then ferry owners needed a replacement boat Hampshire County Council granted a contribution to the cost. No lien was placed on the grant and, when the ferry was subsequently sold, the new owners were told that the boat was not included in the sale, resulting in expenditure on a replacement.
When bus passes were introduced Hampshire County Council agreed to extend them to ferry use. This concession was withdrawn a couple of years later after HCC discovered that every journey had been charged at the single rate whereas almost all were return journeys, the return fare being only approx 10% above the single fare. There can be no doubt that the withdrawal of the bus pass concession heralded a significant drop in usage.
Both these events occurred before the last owners of the ferry had charge. One of the other causes arose from the withdrawal of the free concession (to all) on the Town Quay bus

 

[Palmerston]

Any chance of reviving the Fareham, Gosport and Portsmouth tramway via tunnel under the harbour? Cancelled by Transport Secretary Alistair Darling 20 years ago, I seem to remember.

If you're doing this, go all in and build a second tram tunnel under the Solent.

 

[AlastairFraser]

If you're doing this, go all in and build a second tram tunnel under the Solent.

As much as this is a rail forum, resurrecting the tram scheme Fareham-Gosport-Portsmouth-Waterlooville makes sense *as well as* a road toll dual carriageway tunnel from the M27 in the Whiteley area to the Racecourse roundabout on the Isle of Wight.
Rail isn't viable on its own (and the hovercraft/Lymington to Yarmouth ferry would survive with rail integration), but a road tunnel would be if you could attract enough private investment.

Another Hayling Island road link

Why not a further VLR trial using new Combined Authority funding?
Most of the alignment is intact, a single track would sufficient, and the island has issues with deprivation (which helps with securing funding for regeneration).
A route involving the old railway and a loop through West Town and the promenade would be around 7.5 miles, with potential for an extension north of Havant station to Leigh Park (also an area of high deprivation) if funding allows and you wanted to help build a business case.

 

[fandroid]

The Isle of Wight road system could never cope with the traffic impact of a dual carriageway tunnel. It struggles now in the summer with just the vehicles carried by the ferries. Currently there's only one short length of dualled road there and ironically that follows the old rail route through Newport.

 

[Palmerston]

The Isle of Wight road system could never cope with the traffic impact of a dual carriageway tunnel. It struggles now in the summer with just the vehicles carried by the ferries. Currently there's only one short length of dualled road there and ironically that follows the old rail route through Newport.

I think the residents would for exactly this reason object to a road tunnel. A rail/tram tunnel would be able to bring in extra people and transport them around, but without gumming up the roads, so I think it would result in a lot less objections. I don't think it will ever happen, but if it was in place would work well.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The Isle of Wight road system could never cope with the traffic impact of a dual carriageway tunnel. It struggles now in the summer with just the vehicles carried by the ferries. Currently there's only one short length of dualled road there and ironically that follows the old rail route through Newport.

Wouldn't a highish toll (but still less than Wightlink/Red Funnel) deter too much induced demand?