Experiences of service recovery (or lack of) on GTR Great Northern

[MikeWM]

More signalling issues between Cambridge and Ely.

There were issues of some sort this morning too, though with minimal delays - I was on the 0946 Ely->KGX and we were held before the bridge over the Ouse by Pope's Corner before proceeding very slowly over the bridge. There was at least one guy in orange at lineside. Maybe linked to the issues this evening, or maybe not.

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Clearly if FCC was still running things today, they'd have had all the same issues due to the massive upheaval of the timetable and so many more trains running with tight timings.

They'd have the same congestion issues, but maybe they'd be better at working out how to recover from disruption, or maintenance of the trains (1T48 tonight was 4 carriages rather than 12, again...), or being diligent about doing everything to make sure last services run, or not locking people out of their delay repay system due to the system itself not being able to believe how bad the service has been recently. (I see the Kings Lynn MP is currently sparring with GN on Twitter over the last of those). Certainly it is hard to see anyone doing worse than GN are doing right now, even if you were deliberately trying...

 

[bramling]

There were issues of some sort this morning too, though with minimal delays - I was on the 0946 Ely->KGX and we were held before the bridge over the Ouse by Pope's Corner before proceeding very slowly over the bridge. There was at least one guy in orange at lineside. Maybe linked to the issues this evening, or maybe not.

--



They'd have the same congestion issues, but maybe they'd be better at working out how to recover from disruption, or maintenance of the trains (1T48 tonight was 4 carriages rather than 12, again...), or being diligent about doing everything to make sure last services run, or not locking people out of their delay repay system due to the system itself not being able to believe how bad the service has been recently. (I see the Kings Lynn MP is currently sparring with GN on Twitter over the last of those). Certainly it is hard to see anyone doing worse than GN are doing right now, even if you were deliberately trying...

I definitely get the feeling both FCC and the London Lines element of NX would have made a better attempt of running things than GTR. They just don’t seem to have enough focus on delivery, for whatever reason.

 

[MikeWM]

Here's the last three weeks of evening peak services to Ely. I've picked three weeks rather than four because I don't think it fair to include the insane heatwave week at the end of June as that understandably knocked out pretty much everything. But wow, this is poor. I've included the % ran column as well to show just how many cancellations there have been.


(table showing incredibly poor performance of evening peak GN services from London to Ely).

I keep saying things can't get worse. And yet they keep getting worse!

 

[tatitiliti]

When I travel on the GN from the Fens, I nearly always use Thameslink. I rarely travel on trains going to and from Kings Cross, because I rarely want to go to Kings Cross. In particular I can reach most of Surrey, Sussex and Kent using Thameslink with one change at Blackfriars, London Bridge or East Croydon.

But I just don’t understand it - you still have to make a change anyway and could do it faster by taking a flyer into King’s Cross and crossing the road to St Pancras.

 

[Magdalia]

But I just don’t understand it - you still have to make a change anyway and could do it faster by taking a flyer into King’s Cross and crossing the road to St Pancras.

Getting a train to Kings Cross adds an extra change and a significant walk, all just to save a few minutes. It is much easier to sit on the same train through the core and change just once at Blackfriars, London Bridge or East Croydon.

 

[Magdalia]

One of the problems with Thameslink on the ECML is that it runs too far out. The GN equivalents of Bedford are about Arlesey and Letchworth in terms of distance.

This is not correct. Bedford is 50 miles from London, the ECML stations of nearest similar distance are St Neots and Shepreth.

I do think that Peterborough, at 76 miles, is too far out for Thameslink, but not Cambridge, which is 58 miles and only a bit further than Bedford or Brighton.

 

[scramjet]

Hello everyone, this is my first post at RailForums. I must say, this thread is very illuminating.

I've been horribly frustrated over the past ~half year as my regular CMB-KGX (and return) trains are regularly delayed or worse, cancelled. My usual train, the 1T15 up has absolutely abysmal performance. The 1T57 down from KGX is also frequently late or cancelled. The past Tuesday in particular was interesting as the 1T15 was stopped just before Waterbeach and managed to block something like three trains after it, even delaying the 1T17 by 15 mins.

It's been mentioned here that incoming trains are turned around instead of having spare capacity at either terminal, and what I've recently noticed is that if a train is more than 30 mins late, TSGN simply cancel that late service and make the train run the next one.

I do wonder if there's anything at all that can be done.

 

[Magdalen Road]

There were issues of some sort this morning too, though with minimal delays - I was on the 0946 Ely->KGX and we were held before the bridge over the Ouse by Pope's Corner before proceeding very slowly over the bridge. There was at least one guy in orange at lineside. Maybe linked to the issues this evening, or maybe not.

--



They'd have the same congestion issues, but maybe they'd be better at working out how to recover from disruption, or maintenance of the trains (1T48 tonight was 4 carriages rather than 12, again...), or being diligent about doing everything to make sure last services run, or not locking people out of their delay repay system due to the system itself not being able to believe how bad the service has been recently. (I see the Kings Lynn MP is currently sparring with GN on Twitter over the last of those). Certainly it is hard to see anyone doing worse than GN are doing right now, even if you were deliberately trying...

We were on the same train, the display at Cambridge North said delayed by track maintenance issues.

 

[MikeWM]

We were on the same train, the display at Cambridge North said delayed by track maintenance issues.

Didn't notice that, thanks. Not that we've had a whole slew of weekend closures recently when they could have sorted out something like that...

 

[Steve Harris]

Getting a train to Kings Cross adds an extra change and a significant walk, all just to save a few minutes. It is much easier to sit on the same train through the core and change just once at Blackfriars, London Bridge or East Croydon.

I'd hardly call Kings Cross to St Pancras a significant walk, unless you have a leg in plaster and are using crutches !

It is literally crossing a road + the internal walk within each station (which you would have similar at your starting and destination stations anyway).

 

[Steve Harris]

Hello everyone, this is my first post at RailForums. I must say, this thread is very illuminating.

I've been horribly frustrated over the past ~half year as my regular CMB-KGX (and return) trains are regularly delayed or worse, cancelled. My usual train, the 1T15 up has absolutely abysmal performance. The 1T57 down from KGX is also frequently late or cancelled. The past Tuesday in particular was interesting as the 1T15 was stopped just before Waterbeach and managed to block something like three trains after it, even delaying the 1T17 by 15 mins.

It's been mentioned here that incoming trains are turned around instead of having spare capacity at either terminal, and what I've recently noticed is that if a train is more than 30 mins late, TSGN simply cancel that late service and make the train run the next one.

I do wonder if there's anything at all that can be done.

Either upgrade the capicity of the infrastructure or reduce the number of trains using the current infrastructure so the timetable works reliably.

I think the current issue is that the theoretical (what the planners plan) doesn't equal the practical (what actually happens on a daily/weekly basis). ie. what happens in real life doesn't match up with the theoretical (thereby the theoretical needs to change so it is inline with what can practically be done or in other words : change the timetable so the services become more reliable/resilient to disruption).

And welcome to the forum

 

[Magdalia]

I'd hardly call Kings Cross to St Pancras a significant walk, unless you have a leg in plaster and are using crutches !

Then consider yourself fortunate.

Some of us are old. Some of us are unhealthy, and that isn't always visible. Some of us are travelling with children. Some of us have luggage, especially those going to and from Gatwick Airport.

 

[Failed Unit]

Then consider yourself fortunate.

Some of us are old. Some of us are unhealthy, and that isn't always visible. Some of us are travelling with children. Some of us have luggage, especially those going to and from Gatwick Airport.

I would also rather change at Cambridge, starting point of the service so get any seat you want. Although kings Cross to St pancras is easy that is too sets of barriers and a lift lottery at st Pancras.

Which is why from WGC I tend to change at Finsbury Park, staying on the same platfom is much easier then crossing the road and finding the lift isn’t working.

 

[sharpener]

I'd hardly call Kings Cross to St Pancras a significant walk, unless you have a leg in plaster and are using crutches !

It is literally crossing a road + the internal walk within each station (which you would have similar at your starting and destination stations anyway).

Then consider yourself fortunate.

Some of us are old. Some of us are unhealthy, and that isn't always visible. Some of us are travelling with children. Some of us have luggage, especially those going to and from Gatwick Airport.

I'm with @Magdalia on this one. The KGX - STP bit on the surface requires dodging traffic - can't believe there is no proper ped xing with lights. Below ground the signage is deliberately misleading to spread the load/prevent crowding (see numerous other threads). If I have a weekend bag or case I want to be sure the lifts are going to work. Best avoided IME.

 

[Hadders]

The KGX - STP bit on the surface requires dodging traffic - can't believe there is no proper ped xing with lights.

There is! By the entrance to the Northern ticket hall tube entrance.

But I agree on the general point with why many people find the direct Thameslink trains preferable rather than changing between Kings Cross and St Pancras.

 

[Steve Harris]

I'm with @Magdalia on this one. The KGX - STP bit on the surface requires dodging traffic - can't believe there is no proper ped xing with lights. Below ground the signage is deliberately misleading to spread the load/prevent crowding (see numerous other threads). If I have a weekend bag or case I want to be sure the lifts are going to work. Best avoided IME.

Well I'm afraid your post shows very little knowledge of the area (and somewhat diminishes your argument) as there is a pedestrian crossing between the two. - Providing you come out of the side of King's Cross (the entrance/exit near the Harry Potter shop).

 

[Steve Harris]

Then consider yourself fortunate.

Some of us are old. Some of us are unhealthy, and that isn't always visible. Some of us are travelling with children. Some of us have luggage, especially those going to and from Gatwick Airport.

I'm certainly not fortunate, I have old man knee's. I'm sure the time will come that I will have to book assistance though, Which according to the Passenger Assistance website you can indeed book assistance with transfer between King's Cross and St Pancras and with luggage.

 

[bramling]

I'm with @Magdalia on this one. The KGX - STP bit on the surface requires dodging traffic - can't believe there is no proper ped xing with lights. Below ground the signage is deliberately misleading to spread the load/prevent crowding (see numerous other threads). If I have a weekend bag or case I want to be sure the lifts are going to work. Best avoided IME.

As others have said, there absolutely is a crossing. KX suburban platforms to Thameslink is pretty easy, as is from the suburban platforms to the Northern Line.

 

[sharpener]

Well I'm afraid your post shows very little knowledge of the area (and somewhat diminishes your argument) as there is a pedestrian crossing between the two. - Providing you come out of the side of King's Cross (the entrance/exit near the Harry Potter shop).

Well I live and learn. I have no idea where the Harry Potter shop is. But judging from the google map that exit is a long way from P8 for example (overbridge excepted perhaps).

 

[Steve Harris]

Well I live and learn. But that exit is a long way from P8 for example (overbridge excepted perhaps).

It's not a long way if you know the shortcut ! (There's an alleyway between platforms 8 & 9 just north of the overbridge and then you can exit P9 and the station exit is immediately on your right).

 

[saismee]

Well I'm afraid your post shows very little knowledge of the area (and somewhat diminishes your argument) as there is a pedestrian crossing between the two. - Providing you come out of the side of King's Cross (the entrance/exit near the Harry Potter shop).

Diminishes their argument? I think it strengthens their argument as not everyone would know about the pedestrian crossing, or that exit, or any shortcuts. These are very big stations which a lot of people can find daunting, so they'd rather not change.

 

[Steve Harris]

Diminishes their argument? I think it strengthens their argument as not everyone would know about the pedestrian crossing, or that exit, or any shortcuts. These are very big stations which a lot of people can find daunting, so they'd rather not change.

If I'm going somewhere which I might find daunting I normally take a few seconds out of my day and have a quick look/search on Google maps and hey presto things aren't as daunting as your brain might think.

Other's might just call it being pro active or planning ahead, something that younger generations appear not to do as much as older people, perhaps because they have been spoilt by their parents and been handed everything on a plate ?

As I said in my earlier post, passenger assistance (according to their website) can be booked between the two, so I can't really see why people should have such a hang up, as help is available if need be.

 

[jon0844]

I'm with @Magdalia on this one. The KGX - STP bit on the surface requires dodging traffic - can't believe there is no proper ped xing with lights. Below ground the signage is deliberately misleading to spread the load/prevent crowding (see numerous other threads). If I have a weekend bag or case I want to be sure the lifts are going to work. Best avoided IME.

I think along the road between King's Cross and St Pancras there are some six crossings, possibly seven, although one doesn't have lights (Eurostar side entrance). All the others are controlled by signals. Plus there are two subways, one near Euston Road and the other by the German Gymnasium. If you go up a little bit towards Coal Drops Yard, there's one more subway (with all the fancy colour-changing walls).

It really isn't difficult or dangerous to go from one station to another.

 

[bramling]

I think along the road between King's Cross and St Pancras there are some six crossings, possibly seven, although one doesn't have lights (Eurostar side entrance). All the others are controlled by signals. Plus there are two subways, one near Euston Road and the other by the German Gymnasium. If you go up a little bit towards Coal Drops Yard, there's one more subway (with all the fancy colour-changing walls).

It really isn't difficult or dangerous to go from one station to another.

Whilst I agree with this, the whole situation of having a road between the two stations *is* a complete pain in the arse. Even at 0500 in the morning Pancras Road is full of utter morons in cars mainly dropping people off. IMO the whole area should be pedestrianised.

 

[Failed Unit]

It is a case of what is your preference on 2 things. The train is better on the fast services as the 700s are awful trains in terms of comfort. However if you were doing the change today there are no lifts at St Pancras making it difficult if you have limited mobility.

Which is quicker. Who knows.

Which is safer in terms of reliability in service disruption? Probably the King’s Cross service as the Thameslink is the first to go at the slightest bit of disruption because of other options.

 

[Bikeman78]

Then consider yourself fortunate.

Some of us are old. Some of us are unhealthy, and that isn't always visible. Some of us are travelling with children. Some of us have luggage, especially those going to and from Gatwick Airport.

I'm fortunate enough to be reasonably healthy but all my recent trips to Earlswood or Littlehaven have been an ordeal. The most recent journey was completed by bus from Crawley and a moderate walk to dad's house at the end. Good luck to anyone with health problems. I'd far rather have a reliable half hourly service from a London terminus which was the case until 2018. The worst bit is that GTR is completely incapable of telling me what it plans to do. Website, station departure screens, and on train screens often tell different stories. I'm often stumped. Goodness knows what people with little railway knowledge make of it.

 

[Failed Unit]

I'm fortunate enough to be reasonably healthy but all my recent trips to Earlswood or Littlehaven have been an ordeal. The most recent journey was completed by bus from Crawley and a moderate walk to dad's house at the end. Good luck to anyone with health problems. I'd far rather have a reliable half hourly service from a London terminus which was the case until 2018. The worst bit is that GTR is completely incapable of telling me what it plans to do. Website, station departure screens, and on train train screens often tell different stories. I'm often stumped. Goodness knows what people with little railway knowledge make of it.

I must admit that is a big frustration of mine as well, at Blackfriars you get on the first train to Finsbury Park. Get off to connect to Welwyn Garden City, on to find out that the train you have just got off is stopping additionally at Welwyn Garden City. Granted control could have decided to do the additional stop after Finsbury Park, but it is annoying. Likewise going Southbound additional stops are often made very last minute.

As others have stated depending on where you are you have no idea what is the best way to get home. Sometimes they stop the London - Cambridge services additionally, sometimes a Thameslink. If you are at Kings Cross, where do you go? Finsbury Park can be better as you have the metro service as well. There is no consistent plan, which as I user I would love to have. I really feel for Fen-Line passengers. For me the hourly shuttle between Cambridge and Kings Lynn should be the absolute minimum.

 

[tatitiliti]

I notice from Monday 3rd August - Friday 7th August, and again from Monday 17th August - Friday 21st August:

Most services from Kings Cross to Kings Lynn are scheduled to arrive at Kings Lynn two minutes later (XX:22).

Most services from Kings Lynn to London Kings Cross are scheduled to depart King’s Lynn two minutes earlier (XX:43).

The two minutes appear to be added between Littleport and Downham Market in both directions.

Does anyone know if this is some sort of punctuality trial introduced as part of STP? If so, if they think that increasing journey times and reducing already far too low recovery times at King’s Lynn will make any meaningful difference to PPMs, they must be out of their minds.

Or perhaps it’s some engineering work-linked speed restriction on that stretch for two random non-consecutive weeks?

 

[Magdalia]

I notice from Monday 3rd August - Friday 7th August, and again from Monday 17th August - Friday 21st August:

Most services from Kings Cross to Kings Lynn are scheduled to arrive at Kings Lynn two minutes later (XX:22).

Most services from Kings Lynn to London Kings Cross are scheduled to depart King’s Lynn two minutes earlier (XX:43).

Thanks for finding these, though my reading of RTT has off peak arrivals at xx39 and departures at xx41, with 62 minute turnrounds.

The peaks have longer turnrounds too.

It is bizarre that the changes don't also apply in w/c Monday 10 August.

Or perhaps it’s some engineering work-linked speed restriction on that stretch for two random non-consecutive weeks?

I think it is only a matter of time before speed restrictions will be needed between Littleport and Downham because of the lack of rain. Here it last rained on 22 June, and that was only a brief shower.

 

[sharpener]

It's not a long way if you know the shortcut ! (There's an alleyway between platforms 8 & 9 just north of the overbridge and then you can exit P9 and the station exit is immediately on your right).

I remember using it long ago (when I was at school in fact) but mistakenly thought it had gone in the big redevelopment.

Diminishes their argument? I think it strengthens their argument as not everyone would know about the pedestrian crossing, or that exit, or any shortcuts. These are very big stations which a lot of people can find daunting, so they'd rather not change.

Yes, thank you for your support! I would rather not change, however both the physical stations and the pattern of trains using them have changed a lot over the past sixty years and more. So (as above) I cannot always remember what the current position is especially for the less common moves. Also like others my mobility is not what it was and I think I have just about mastered the lift access to the Circle Line thanks to help on here.