Experiences of service recovery (or lack of) on GTR Great Northern

[bramling]

Indeed! No cancellations, nothing appallingly late. That said, 1T48, 1T50, 1T52, 1T54 and 1T56 were all more than 5 minutes late by Ely, but given the past month...

1T48 and 1T50 finally break the record I mentioned above by being less than 10 late at Ely, first time since June 17th. But they were 9.5 and 8.5 late respectively, so only *just*!

--



Weekends were pretty good in the early 2010s in the last days of FCC - they started falling to pieces pretty much immediately when GTR took over in 2014. I started a thread on that back in May 2016.

Weekdays were more-or-less ok even after GTR took over - apart from the 2018 timetable fiasco - until after covid. Things have pretty much been consistently/incrementally downhill since then.

FCC was solid from start to finish on weekdays. The good work was done by WAGN under National Express, who sorted a lot of issues left by the less satisfactory Prism. ISTR FCC did have some issues at weekends, though I don’t remember it being a significant issue.

Things went downhill after GTR took over, and especially after May 18. It feels like the post-2018 setup has never been properly resources, both in terms of drivers and also the ability to control & manage it.

Worth emphasising again just how good things were under FCC. I’m not so sure about the Fen Line as I didn’t use it, however southbound GN services you could set your watch by. I didn’t need to check the service before leaving home, you just turned up at the station and the train showed up, normally on time. Northbound services sometimes lost a bit of time around Welwyn and Hitchin, but rarely more than a few minutes.

It sounds flippant, however the way to keep GN running is to keep trains running on time. Having everything start from King’s Cross helped this. This is why I was always sceptical about Thameslink, just introducing that bit of variation from the 4tph TL service ex London has completely messed everything up, not helped by there being nothing like enough turnround time on pretty much all the services, so not only are there issues going north but these then transmit to southbound as well. It was said on here that the single-line sections north of Littleport would be a killer, and that’s exactly what is happening now.

Some extra turnround time would help (if the infrastructure can accommodate it, which isn’t a given), but the real issue is Thameslink. I can’t see that ever being resolvable, as there’s always going to be late running picked up elsewhere.

 

[Horizon22]

I think part of the problem is we get the service alterations *as well*. In this specific case, the preceding two services had been cancelled so presumably they felt somewhat pressured to try to run this one, even with such a delay.

Yes amending the 3rd train would mean some people wouldn't have a service in well beyond an hour. This is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario.

 

[Horizon22]

FCC was solid from start to finish on weekdays. The good work was done by WAGN under National Express, who sorted a lot of issues left by the less satisfactory Prism. ISTR FCC did have some issues at weekends, though I don’t remember it being a significant issue.

Things went downhill after GTR took over, and especially after May 18. It feels like the post-2018 setup has never been properly resources, both in terms of drivers and also the ability to control & manage it.

It will be partly how intensively they are trying to run the service now and the vast interconnected nature of it, not helping the aforementioned 'snowball' effect. Although FCC wasn't given the derogatory name "First Crapital Connect" for no reason...

 

[bramling]

It will be partly how intensively they are trying to run the service now and the vast interconnected nature of it, not helping the aforementioned 'snowball' effect. Although FCC wasn't given the derogatory name "First Crapital Connect" for no reason...

I always got the feeling that FCC upset people with things like the evening peak restrictions (which, to be honest, I was broadly supportive of). Weekdays at least, no one could reasonable fault FCC’s operations on the GN side. Their performance was better than excellent, and they did useful stuff like running longer trains and getting as much running in the peaks as possible. It may also be the case that FCC came in for more criticism on the Midland side.

Rather than doing the whole Thameslink thing, a few more 12-car platforms at King’s Cross would have been a much better solution. I realise this would have been extremely challenging. 4tph TL to the GN is too much, it’s never going to work.

 

[Horizon22]

I always got the feeling that FCC upset people with things like the evening peak restrictions (which, to be honest, I was broadly supportive of). Weekdays at least, no one could reasonable fault FCC’s operations on the GN side. Their performance was better than excellent, and they did useful stuff like running longer trains and getting as much running in the peaks as possible. It may also be the case that FCC came in for more criticism on the Midland side.

Rather than doing the whole Thameslink thing, a few more 12-car platforms at King’s Cross would have been a much better solution. I realise this would have been extremely challenging. 4tph TL to the GN is too much, it’s never going to work.

I did personally think that the connection via Canal Tunnels was extra connectivity that didn't seem particularly in demand but much like the Elizabeth line and the previous terminus at Paddington, you can't undo it now as the capacity at Kings Cross has been taken up by the long-distance operator. You can't argue that some appreciate the connectivity it now provides and can't be rewound. As you say it would be extremely challenging to do something now (or even previously)

Running more through services is better for capacity but does add some inherent reliability risk, especially with multiple branches - some of which now have their only service provided by TL and GN and are caught up in something the other side of the river - and increasing the tph in the core which eats up recovery time

 

[Royston Vasey]

It will be partly how intensively they are trying to run the service now and the vast interconnected nature of it, not helping the aforementioned 'snowball' effect. Although FCC wasn't given the derogatory name "First Crapital Connect" for no reason...

My memory was of the GN side being very well run and reliable under FCC, and that their bad reputation stemmed almost entirely from the Western side, i.e. Thameslink! It was ever thus!

 

[MikeWM]

My memory was of the GN side being very well run and reliable under FCC, and that their bad reputation stemmed almost entirely from the Western side, i.e. Thameslink! It was ever thus!

Agreed. The GN side - the 'outers' at least - was reliable at weekends too, I travelled on most Saturdays and Sundays in the period 2008-2014 between Cambridge and London and very rarely had any reliability issues. Trains were often a bit busy and would have benefited from lengthening (the 2315 KGX-KLN on a Saturday was stuck as 4 carriages for far too long and was increasingly packed to the rafters) but they ran reliably and punctually, and on the rare occasion something went wrong they went to special efforts to always run the last train - I was never stranded despite often going for the last service of the night. (Doing the same with GN nowadays I'd be stranded/in a taxi multiple times every year).

 

[bramling]

I did personally think that the connection via Canal Tunnels was extra connectivity that didn't seem particularly in demand but much like the Elizabeth line and the previous terminus at Paddington, you can't undo it now as the capacity at Kings Cross has been taken up by the long-distance operator. You can't argue that some appreciate the connectivity it now provides and can't be rewound. As you say it would be extremely challenging to do something now (or even previously)

Running more through services is better for capacity but does add some inherent reliability risk, especially with multiple branches - some of which now have their only service provided by TL and GN and are caught up in something the other side of the river - and increasing the tph in the core which eats up recovery time

I guess in an ideal world it would be the inners that would have gone through TL, however these already ran to Moorgate.

As far as the four TL services go, both routes have their issues. Peterborough-Horsham is a problem as it’s the only service for people between Hitchin and Peterborough. However Cambridge-Brighton is more disruptive. So what I’d have been looking to do is reduce the TL service by 50%, and replace with 2tph to King’s Cross. Either split between Peterborough and Cambridge, or else it would have to be Peterborough-Brighton, simply to reduce issues on the Cambridge line. Horsham should return to being a London Bridge only service, or if it must run through the core then terminate somewhere like Kentish Town.

As for the long-distance trains using the platforms at King’s Cross, they can do one as far as I’m concerned. Reliable services into London from the Home Counties is far more important. Some of the open access can do one as well, especially when they are operating 5-car trains.

 

[milooo]

The 17:12 to Peterborough has been cancelled out of Kings X. No clue why and whilst it's inbound stock did come in it went out as the 17:27 stopper to Letchworth.

 

[saismee]

The 17:12 to Peterborough has been cancelled out of Kings X. No clue why and whilst it's inbound stock did come in it went out as the 17:27 stopper to Letchworth.

Was supposed to be formed by 3L48 which was cancelled. It's not clear why.

 

[Mattplans]

replace with 2tph to King’s Cross

What would you displace from King's Cross then? (Running on the assumption that KX is at capacity) And if services can be squeezed in, I doubt there's enough room for sufficient pathing/engineering/recovery allowances. And what of all the drivers that have knowledge of this route?

if it must run through the core then terminate somewhere like Kentish Town.

Too small (12 coaches) for Kentish Town I think. No space w Rainhams terminating there either way. (probably)

I think we're at the point where attempting to make 'improvements' is just playing musical chairs with the train services. And unfortunately at the end, when the music stops playing, (and everyone is now in a different chair) we're still left with the base problem of the traditional terminals being at capacity. As mentioned upthread, long-distance services have taken the valuable paths at KX. If we're going to send TL trains to KX, it will be very difficult to do so without being at the expense of those long distance services. Is that fair? Exact same issue on the South. We've now got Maidstone East running into Charing X and that's come at the expense of some metro paths redirected to the less popular Cannon Street or just a reduction in services overall.


I do sympathise with GN travellers as I'm not sure I'd be able to hack it. My personal problem is that during disruption, not knowing whether King's Cross or St Pancras will offer the faster service home and not everyhting stops at Finsbury Park. Obviously, in the inbound direction, no problem: drop me off at KX or STP and you'll still be able to make your way to work, but in the outbound I can see how it might be very difficult. Although, still better than the SE metro situation where you've got 3 different terminals scattered around the city with no idea what offers the fastest home!

 

[saismee]

I think we're at the point where attempting to make 'improvements' is just playing musical chairs with the train services. And unfortunately at the end, when the music stops playing, (and everyone is now in a different chair) we're still left with the base problem of the traditional terminals being at capacity.

The Thameslink Programme has effectively given us +Xtph on various routes and the core, followed by a similarly high amount of cancellations, destroying its effectiveness.

The reason XR works for a similar service is because it doesn't share quite so much track with other services, except between Stratford and Shenfield, and Paddington and Reading. Even still, east of Stratford still uses separate lines which are almost dedicated to XR bar some exceptions, with the mains being added redundancy. If something goes wrong then there's alternative terminals. Liverpool Street and Paddington being the major two which continue to allow XR to run as a regional service. Thameslink doesn't have these redundancies and have no choice but to can the service if the core fails, or even if something fails on one of the branches.

 

[gaillark]

My memory was of the GN side being very well run and reliable under FCC, and that their bad reputation stemmed almost entirely from the Western side, i.e. Thameslink! It was ever thus!

It started before FCC!
In fact it started when BR Network SouthEast introduced Thameslink back in 1998.
Before Thameslink commenced the Midland side operations were very reliable. As soon as Thameslink commenced the service reliability declined significantly with delays being imported from the Southern.

It is also very unfortunate of the loss of the Moorgate branch at Farringdon as that was a very useful turnback.
The takeover by Eurostar of the main train shed at St Pancras back in 2004 also hasn't helped as the replacement Midland Main Line platforms 1-4 in the new St Pancras high level are too few and too short in length.
The same has recently been allowed to happen at Kings Cross.

At that time it was planned that late running Thameslink trains would be diverted after East Croydon to Sanderstead where they would be turned but this plan was dropped.

 

[Bikeman78]

Weekends were pretty good in the early 2010s in the last days of FCC - they started falling to pieces pretty much immediately when GTR took over in 2014. I started a thread on that back in May 2016.

Weekdays were more-or-less ok even after GTR took over - apart from the 2018 timetable fiasco - until after covid. Things have pretty much been consistently/incrementally downhill since then.

My personal interest in the GN diminished in April 2017 when the class 317s finished and ceased completely when the class 313s finished in 2019. The vast majority of my trips were on weekdays so that explains why my experience was mostly ok. Even in 2019, the 313 operation seemed pretty good once the dust had settled from May 2018.

 

[bramling]

It started before FCC!
In fact it started when BR Network SouthEast introduced Thameslink back in 1998.
Before Thameslink commenced the Midland side operations were very reliable. As soon as Thameslink commenced the service reliability declined significantly with delays being imported from the Southern.

It is also very unfortunate of the loss of the Moorgate branch at Farringdon as that was a very useful turnback.
The takeover by Eurostar of the main train shed at St Pancras back in 2004 also hasn't helped as the replacement Midland Main Line platforms 1-4 in the new St Pancras high level are too few and too short in length.
The same has recently been allowed to happen at Kings Cross.

At that time it was planned that late running Thameslink trains would be diverted after East Croydon to Sanderstead where they would be turned but this plan was dropped.

That was my experience with Thameslink in the 1990s. At the time the basic service was 4tph Sutton loop to Luton and 4tph Brighton to Bedford. So in theory never more than 15 minutes for a train. Reality was very different. Just like what we now see on GN.

 

[tatitiliti]

I really wish they would consider scrapping the Thameslink services via Finsbury Park… One of the worst ideas ever to hit UK rail operations.

 

[Hadders]

I really wish they would consider scrapping the Thameslink services via Finsbury Park… One of the worst ideas ever to hit UK rail operations.

The problem is the cat’s out of the bag now, when it works Thameslink is brilliant and it has enabled a big increase in capacity. For example from Stevenage there are four fast trains an hour to London, albeit it a few minutes slower than before, and all 12-car. It wasn’t that long ago that we had 4-cars running around in the off peak. You couldn’t have this level of service if everything went into Kings Cross.

The elephant in the room is reliability, and what happens when there’s disruption. We were told on here that when there was disruption the GN side it would be ‘simple’ to sort and recover. Clearly that was incorrect and it does seem to me that there needs to be a more robust plan out in place when things go wrong - especially for stations between Arlesey and Huntingdon and between Cambridge and Kings Lynn.

As for FCC days, I seem to remember reliability being very goof on the GN side. Things I do remember about FCC:

- Complicated evening peak restrictions
- Wedged 4-car trains at weekends (especially the semi fasts)
- Over zealous revenue protection staff

 

[bramling]

The problem is the cat’s out of the bag now, when it works Thameslink is brilliant and it has enabled a big increase in capacity. For example from Stevenage there are four fast trains an hour to London, albeit it a few minutes slower than before, and all 12-car. It wasn’t that long ago that we had 4-cars running around in the off peak. You couldn’t have this level of service if everything went into Kings Cross.

The elephant in the room is reliability, and what happens when there’s disruption. We were told on here that when there was disruption the GN side it would be ‘simple’ to sort and recover. Clearly that was incorrect and it does seem to me that there needs to be a more robust plan out in place when things go wrong - especially for stations between Arlesey and Huntingdon and between Cambridge and Kings Lynn.

As for FCC days, I seem to remember reliability being very goof on the GN side. Things I do remember about FCC:

- Complicated evening peak restrictions
- Wedged 4-car trains at weekends (especially the semi fasts)
- Over zealous revenue protection staff

I would very happily go back to an off-peak half-hourly service of 8-car trains with everything running to King’s Cross, with through Thameslink services running as peak extras - which is actually more suited to the whole thing.

 

[tatitiliti]

I would very happily go back to an off-peak half-hourly service of 8-car trains with everything running to King’s Cross, with through Thameslink services running as peak extras - which is actually more suited to the whole thing.

Agree.

I just cannot fathom the benefit of Thameslink services via Finsbury Park when King’s Cross is a 2 minute walk from St Pancras - on paper there are capacity increases for ECML stations south of Hitchin but with the operational reality of many services severely delayed or cancelled, I bet this is modest at best for most stations.

 

[tatitiliti]

Another great evening on the Fen line by the way. Nothing leaving King’s Lynn for several hours and northbound not faring much better.

 

[jon0844]

Another great evening on the Fen line by the way. Nothing leaving King’s Lynn for several hours and northbound not faring much better.

More signalling issues between Cambridge and Ely.

 

[Magdalia]

I just cannot fathom the benefit of Thameslink services via Finsbury Park when King’s Cross is a 2 minute walk from St Pancras

When I travel on the GN from the Fens, I nearly always use Thameslink. I rarely travel on trains going to and from Kings Cross, because I rarely want to go to Kings Cross. In particular I can reach most of Surrey, Sussex and Kent using Thameslink with one change at Blackfriars, London Bridge or East Croydon.

 

[Intercity_225]

More signalling issues between Cambridge and Ely.

I know that new things have teething issues but this is ridiculous. There's been signalling issues in the Ely area pretty much every week since the re-do over Christmas. It's getting to the point where I'm questioning whether it is just teething issues or actual long-term problems?

 

[bramling]

Another great evening on the Fen line by the way. Nothing leaving King’s Lynn for several hours and northbound not faring much better.

I see GTR have a new thing they now seem to do since Cambridge South opened - terminate a late-running up Fen Line service at Stevenage, then run it empty to Cambridge South to pick up its down working. The premise of chucking people off a service at a station it wasn’t even planned to stop is pretty poor.

This used to happen at Welwyn Garden City sometimes with the old setup. Pretty unimpressed to arrive at Welwyn on a busy 8/387 and then find the platform packed with people off a terminated Fen Line service.

 

[jon0844]

Agreed. The GN side - the 'outers' at least - was reliable at weekends too, I travelled on most Saturdays and Sundays in the period 2008-2014 between Cambridge and London and very rarely had any reliability issues. Trains were often a bit busy and would have benefited from lengthening (the 2315 KGX-KLN on a Saturday was stuck as 4 carriages for far too long and was increasingly packed to the rafters) but they ran reliably and punctually, and on the rare occasion something went wrong they went to special efforts to always run the last train - I was never stranded despite often going for the last service of the night. (Doing the same with GN nowadays I'd be stranded/in a taxi multiple times every year).

Before we had the trains going through the core, it was a lot more simple in terms of timetabling - and many people south of Stevenage had trains alternating between Cambridge and Peterborough, so if things went wrong you could at least get the 'other' train part of the way. Now stations like Hatfield and WGC only get Peterborough trains on a Sunday night/Monday morning - and when things go wrong, they don't even automatically stop anything else to get people to Stevenage (or vice versa) so a lot of people are left stranded with huge gaps in service.

Clearly if FCC was still running things today, they'd have had all the same issues due to the massive upheaval of the timetable and so many more trains running with tight timings.

 

[Hadders]

I would very happily go back to an off-peak half-hourly service of 8-car trains with everything running to King’s Cross, with through Thameslink services running as peak extras - which is actually more suited to the whole thing.

I’m not sure that’s realistic now given the huge uplift in leisure traffic, especially at weekends. 4x12 cars an hour isn’t going to fit into 2x8.

Also, don’t underestimate the number of people who use Thameslink to reach places like London Bridge, Gatwick Airport and Brighton.

What needs to happen is a more robust disruption plan, I don’t know how realistic that is or what it would cost

 

[jon0844]

I know that new things have teething issues but this is ridiculous. There's been signalling issues in the Ely area pretty much every week since the re-do over Christmas. It's getting to the point where I'm questioning whether it is just teething issues or actual long-term problems?

There are some additional 1Gxx trains to shuttle between Kings Lynn and Ely and the 1Txx running Cambridge to King's Cross with what I assume are buses in between CBG and ELY.

 

[saismee]

More signalling issues between Cambridge and Ely.

There have also been continued track circuit failures at Dullingham with some signals never clearing and some being slow to clear (usually before outright failing) for the past week or two now. The Bury St Edmunds line is continually getting worse and worse, and nothing will get better until they replace the ageing equipment. EWR isn't a silver bullet but it can't come soon enough.

 

[WeGoAgain]

When I travel on the GN from the Fens, I nearly always use Thameslink. I rarely travel on trains going to and from Kings Cross, because I rarely want to go to Kings Cross. In particular I can reach most of Surrey, Sussex and Kent using Thameslink with one change at Blackfriars, London Bridge or East Croydon.

I'd be interested to know what you did before CBG - BTN direct was a thing (assuming you did the same journeys you do now, back then).

Personally, walking from KGX across to STP isn't that much of an issue. It's pretty much all step free access (if the lifts are working at STP), and can all be done underground if the weather isn't playing nicely.

 

[bramling]

I’m not sure that’s realistic now given the huge uplift in leisure traffic, especially at weekends. 4x12 cars an hour isn’t going to fit into 2x8.

Also, don’t underestimate the number of people who use Thameslink to reach places like London Bridge, Gatwick Airport and Brighton.

What needs to happen is a more robust disruption plan, I don’t know how realistic that is or what it would cost

The problem with having some kind of robust disruption plan, is no one has yet managed to devise one, which seems to indicate it may not be possible to achieve.

Firstly there needs to be a total simplification of the crewing arrangements, but again how exactly do you do that? I suggested having a set pattern of crew reliefs at Finsbury Park, which itself is hardly ideal, but it’s better than what we have now.

The other way to do it is you have services crewed from Cambridge, Peterborough, Horsham and Brighton, and every driver does one outward trip, takes a PNB, returns back to origin, and books off. This is hideously inefficient, and would require a load more drivers, but it would actually work. If it was crewed like this then they could probably get away with the short train turnrounds at each end, as every service would start with a driver freshly booked on. How early morning and late evening services would be handled would be another issue to work through.

Aside from that, massively lengthen the turnround time at each end, which would probably require additional platforms at each location, and again more drivers.

Aside from this, I can’t see what can actually be done to make things work. Even if you massively increased the amount of control resources, I can’t see control being able to keep fully on top of the current crewing arrangements.

One of the problems with Thameslink on the ECML is that it runs too far out. The GN equivalents of Bedford are about Arlesey and Letchworth in terms of distance.