TfL issues 69,000 penalty fares as fare evasion crackdown intensifies

[Hadders]

Which these will not solve because they're not designed to be less pushable

They are less pushable.

 

[Egg Centric]

They are less pushable.

Revenue protection through barriers is not really worth a single death, certainly not by the safety standards the railway insists on applying to everything else, so I hope they are actually pushable in extremis.

 

[Cdd89]

They don't need to be pushable, as my understanding is that all gatelines must be monitored by staff, and be left open when unmonitored and open automatically in the event of a fire alarm activation.

Admittedly remotely monitored gatelines are a bit dodgy, but my understanding is there still needs to be staff on site?

 

[Egg Centric]

They don't need to be pushable, as my understanding is that all gatelines must be monitored by staff, and be left open when unmonitored and open automatically in the event of a fire alarm activation.

It's possible to conceive of situations where that isn't good enough (e.g. flashmob). And we know the railway is extremely risk averse, so odd it'd consider that sufficiently acceptable.

 

[saismee]

Which these will not solve because they're not designed to be less pushable

They very much are.

It's possible to conceive of situations where that isn't good enough (e.g. flashmob). And we know the railway is extremely risk averse, so odd it'd consider that sufficiently acceptable.

They don't need to be pushable, as my understanding is that all gatelines must be monitored by staff, and be left open when unmonitored and open automatically in the event of a fire alarm activation.

Admittedly remotely monitored gatelines are a bit dodgy, but my understanding is there still needs to be staff on site?

There's still an emergency open button and AIUI these new gates can detect overcrowding on their own. We utilise radios in my station to determine when gates must be opened to prevent crowding as there may not be dangerous overcrowding at the gates, but on the platforms and stairs it may be dangerous. If anything I think remotely-monitored gatelines could be more safe than staff in-person as the EMO can be activated without having to physically get to it.

 

[Benjwri]

They very much are.



There's still an emergency open button and AIUI these new gates can detect overcrowding on their own. We utilise radios in my station to determine when gates must be opened to prevent crowding as there may not be dangerous overcrowding at the gates, but on the platforms and stairs it may be dangerous. If anything I think remotely-monitored gatelines could be more safe than staff in-person as the EMO can be activated without having to physically get to it.

If I had a pound for every time I've found a gateline unmanned, even off TfL, I'd be awfully rich. There are so many situations where the staff might not be there, say you were called to an emergency and forgot to open the gateline.

 

[BazingaTribe]

They very much are.



There's still an emergency open button and AIUI these new gates can detect overcrowding on their own. We utilise radios in my station to determine when gates must be opened to prevent crowding as there may not be dangerous overcrowding at the gates, but on the platforms and stairs it may be dangerous. If anything I think remotely-monitored gatelines could be more safe than staff in-person as the EMO can be activated without having to physically get to it.

Do they also 'fail to safery' when there's a power cut or alarm or something like that? The general practice is that doors on electronic latches are supposed to unlatch themselves in an emergency to allow people to get out without needing to push an exit button or swipe a card. (Not quibbling with the reasoning here, just asking a related question.)

 

[Benjwri]

Do they also 'fail to safery' when there's a power cut or alarm or something like that? The general practice is that doors on electronic latches are supposed to unlatch themselves in an emergency to allow people to get out without needing to push an exit button or swipe a card. (Not quibbling with the reasoning here, just asking a related question.)

Yes in the event of a power cut or activation of the fire control panel gatelines will automatically enter emergency open mode on the Underground.

 

[saismee]

Do they also 'fail to safery' when there's a power cut or alarm or something like that? The general practice is that doors on electronic latches are supposed to unlatch themselves in an emergency to allow people to get out without needing to push an exit button or swipe a card. (Not quibbling with the reasoning here, just asking a related question.)

Yes in the event of a power cut or activation of the fire control panel gatelines will automatically enter emergency open mode on the Underground.

Indeed. Each gate has its own beefy battery which opens the paddles in the event of a power cut. There is a warning if the battery runs low, and Cubic are very quick to replace them when this happens. They take safety seriously and any safety-related issue is highest priority. One time the safety cable, which hold the front cover and E-ticket scanner on, snapped clean in half and the Cubic tech fixed it without asking it be logged first as it was an immediate safety hazard to unsuspecting staff who opened the cover.

Though I have smashed my fingers in by dropping the top panel on them as the lid stay plunger didn't engage properly. The Cubic tech sent to fix it said we just have to wiggle it more and refused to fix it until I had a go at him for it. Probably should've asked for his name and reported him as it isn't the first time he has left jobs with something important not being fixed (or leaving it more broken). So... YMMV as it goes.

 

[Railguy1]

Harrow on the hill is a hotspot. They may as well just hire a member of staff to be placed there permanently to spot fare dodging and issue fines.

 

[BazingaTribe]

Yes in the event of a power cut or activation of the fire control panel gatelines will automatically enter emergency open mode on the Underground.

Indeed. Each gate has its own beefy battery which opens the paddles in the event of a power cut. There is a warning if the battery runs low, and Cubic are very quick to replace them when this happens. They take safety seriously and any safety-related issue is highest priority. One time the safety cable, which hold the front cover and E-ticket scanner on, snapped clean in half and the Cubic tech fixed it without asking it be logged first as it was an immediate safety hazard to unsuspecting staff who opened the cover.

Though I have smashed my fingers in by dropping the top panel on them as the lid stay plunger didn't engage properly. The Cubic tech sent to fix it said we just have to wiggle it more and refused to fix it until I had a go at him for it. Probably should've asked for his name and reported him as it isn't the first time he has left jobs with something important not being fixed (or leaving it more broken). So... YMMV as it goes.

Thank you both. As someone who remembers Kings Cross back in the 1980s (wasn't there, but we used the Victoria line a lot from Walthamstow into central London at the time) it's good to know. I'm claustrophobic, mobility challenged and autistic and often struggling a bit when using the train and so knowing where the exits are is useful even on a good day -- and would be life-saving on a bad day. What helped me was being a fire warden at work and learning how to handle emergencies, but still, you can never be too careful and I think the railways do their best on that score at least.

 

[saismee]

Thank you both. As someone who remembers Kings Cross back in the 1980s (wasn't there, but we used the Victoria line a lot from Walthamstow into central London at the time) it's good to know. I'm claustrophobic, mobility challenged and autistic and often struggling a bit when using the train and so knowing where the exits are is useful even on a good day -- and would be life-saving on a bad day. What helped me was being a fire warden at work and learning how to handle emergencies, but still, you can never be too careful and I think the railways do their best on that score at least.

There's also often other gates that can be opened or open automatically in the event of a fire. I think there's one at Colchester on the up side by the CoffeeLink, which is just a door with a magnetic lock that opens when power is lost (or a fire alarm goes off). If there's any reason to praise the railways, it's that everything always fails safe.

 

[Egg Centric]

There's also often other gates that can be opened or open automatically in the event of a fire. I think there's one at Colchester on the up side by the CoffeeLink, which is just a door with a magnetic lock that opens when power is lost (or a fire alarm goes off). If there's any reason to praise the railways, it's that everything always fails safe.

The only way to ensure a gate fails safe under all circumstances is that it can be opened under all circumstances without staff intervention.

It would be perfectly defensible to take a view that the circumstances where it goes wrong are so unlikely it's fine. But that seems odd when almost everything else on the railway is safe way beyond the point of cost effectiveness

 

[saismee]

The only way to ensure a gate fails safe under all circumstances is that it can be opened under all circumstances without staff intervention.

They can, the emergency plunger is publicly accessible.

 

[Mattplans]

Is it really though? Itt's definitely not clear to the average customer that it exists or where it is. I don't think all stations have this plunger (in an area accessible by the gateline anyway?). Most SE metro stations that have barriers have this type

CUBIC E1

and they are not accompanied by this plunger. I'll have to look closer next time but I am pretty sure many of these stations near me don't have it. And I'd like to think of myself as an eagle eyed person.

To legitimately claim :

the emergency plunger is publicly accessible

It has to be firmly in the public eye, in my opinion. A customer stuck here shouldn't spend more than 10 seconds looking for this so called emergency plunger.
And do large/longer gatelines have duplicate plungers spread out along the gateline? Or is it still from the one console box?

 

[Benjwri]

They can, the emergency plunger is publicly accessible.

So if someone is stuck in a crush against a gateline how do they press the plunger? The people by the plunger may not realise it is that serious of a situation.

 

[saismee]

It has to be firmly in the public eye, in my opinion. A customer stuck here shouldn't spend more than 10 seconds looking for this so called emergency plunger.
And do large/longer gatelines have duplicate plungers spread out along the gateline? Or is it still from the one console box?

So if someone is stuck in a crush against a gateline how do they press the plunger? The people by the plunger may not realise it is that serious of a situation.

If someone is falling on an escalator, how do they press the emergency stop? There is a plunger and it is publicly accessible, I never said it was in arms reach from every gate. I'm unsure about multiple plungers, though I know at some gatelines they have a separate plunger for separate sections of the gateline (along with a separate SCU too).

I don't think all stations have this plunger (in an area accessible by the gateline anyway?)

They must have one, the gateline staff have to test it every day.

 

[Mawkie]

We've got a bit lost in the weeds of gateline technicality.

We often drift into "whatifery" on this forum. Since King's Cross, there are numerous very involved processes, plans have been implemented (and tested), preventative anti-crowding measures taken, and on and on ad infinitum. This makes it virtually impossible for the mythical crowd-pushing of someone against barriers to the level of a crushing death.

For obvious reasons on a public forum, I'm not going to describe LU procedures, emergency evacuation processes, or safety plans - you'll have to take my word for it that virtually every eventuality is catered for.

 

[Benjwri]

This makes it virtually impossible for the mythical crowd-pushing of someone against barriers to the level of a crushing death.

In the current situation yes, but given it was in response to suggestions of changing some of these measures in my opinion it's a valid point.