Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[ShadowKnight]

Besides the point doubly made of "there is no space on the WCML", how plausible/appropriate is such a thing to improve the prospects of such an international service? This is a rail forum after all

 

[Mikey C]

Is there even room at Stratford International for all the border and security formalities, considering how things have changed since HS1 first opened?

The building isn't very large, and gets decent numbers using the domestic HS1 services.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is there even room at Stratford International for all the border and security formalities, considering how things have changed since HS1 first opened?

Yes, for about 200 people per train, assuming the border control & customs requirements of 2002.

 

[bspahh]

Besides the point doubly made of "there is no space on the WCML", how plausible/appropriate is such a thing to improve the prospects of such an international service? This is a rail forum after all

Connecting HS1 and HS2 has come up as a topic for discussion before, such as in this thread

Should the HS2-HS1 tunnel under London be uncancelled?

I Think the best way to.make this work is to terminate HS2 trains at Euston. Fully segregated track work to reduce delays, i can just imagine the reliability issues you would have trying to intertwine HS2, javelin and eurostar services would be disastrous running through St Pancras. My honest...

www.railforums.co.uk

The consensus on that thread was that it is not plausible

 

[zwk500]

Connecting HS1 and HS2 has come up as a topic for discussion before, such as in this thread

Note that the suggestion was linking HS1 and the WCML, not HS2. This link is physically installed, via Camden road to the WCML Slows.

It's still a terrible idea to try and run through services, though.

 

[coppercapped]

The access fees and St Pancras capacity are the bigger issues. Schengen is a barrier for whoever runs trains, and Eurostar does not have exclusive use of the border facilities, they simply got there first.

Given that Gemini is proposing services to Germany, for which they will receive an initial discount in charges through the Chunnel, I don’t think they’re a Ryanair-style setup. Stratford international is connected to both financial centres of London, Canary Wharf and the Square Mile, by the DLR. If they offer fast border clearance for business passenger as Eurostar does then they could be offering a sustainable alternative for business travel to financial centres in Europe, that wouldn’t measure up badly against air travel times door-to-door. You could have a working lunch in London and still be in Brussels in time to give the Belgian team a roasting for their poor results.

As a side note I’m surprised that three serious players have come along basically all at once and I would like to know what changed to make that happen.

Various wars and disputes around the world having the potential to raise the price of oil to around $100 per barrel. That will hurt airlines a lot.

 

[marshlinker]

A double track viaduct towards Camden Town was built, but only one (reversible) track was ever laid. So in theory could add a reversing siding on the spare formation, which means wouldn't need to utilise St Pancras platforms. And if it is only a few services a day a single siding should be sufficient

You can use the Camden Spur for reversing now as I understand it. There's just currently no reason to. There's no rolling stock that can use it as a through route to NR.

 

[zwk500]

There's no rolling stock that can use it as a through route to NR.

Class 92 can (unless they've had TVM/KVB removed), and Class 395 could if issued clearance.

Both subject to the signalling being fully commissioned, which it might not be. But I might also be confusing it with other HS1 chords.

 

[Krokodil]

It's still a terrible idea to try and run through services, though.

Yeah, it's a complete non-starter while the UK remains outside of Schengen.

 

[Class73Electro]

Had a look on Google maps, and in Streetview there's a Class 69 on the viaduct!

 

[signed]

Various wars and disputes around the world having the potential to raise the price of oil to around $100 per barrel. That will hurt airlines a lot.

They'll just increase fuel surcharge (also known as YQ) as they did massively when the Iran conflict kicked off, people will still fly.

Airlines have much less overhead than any train service has. And it would take a lot for LCCs to be more expensive on average than Eurostar

 

[coppercapped]

They'll just increase fuel surcharge (also known as YQ) as they did massively when the Iran conflict kicked off, people will still fly.

Airlines have much less overhead than any train service has. And it would take a lot for LCCs to be more expensive on average than Eurostar

Takeoff and climb to altitude is the most energy intensive part of a flight. Long periods of cruising at altitude less so. Short haul flights - which are the ones most affected by potential rail competition - are relatively more affected by fuel price increases than long haul flights as the proportion of their operations made up by the energy intensive phases is much higher.

Of course people will still fly - especially those who live on islands. But the shift in economics may make an opening for a few more rail services from the South East of England to the near Continent.

 

[zwk500]

But the shift in economics may make an opening for a few more rail services from the South East of England to the near Continent.

Not unless border arrangements are significantly more streamlined for rail compared to air. And I don't see that happening in the current political climate.

 

[marshlinker]

Class 92 can (unless they've had TVM/KVB removed), and Class 395 could if issued clearance.

Both subject to the signalling being fully commissioned, which it might not be. But I might also be confusing it with other HS1 chords.

I don't believe that Class 92s ever had KVB installed as it was never envisaged that they would go to St Pancras. The Eurotunnel sleeper was dead by then.
Class 395s can only currently work on the HS1 (TGV) overhead which has a different height and tension to the classic BR system. They don't have a changeover selector as fitted to class 92s and the Eurostar trains. They are always hauled by Diesel Locos when they go off the dc/hs ac networks.

 

[Snow1964]

£

Yeah, it's a complete non-starter while the UK remains outside of Schengen.

Watch this space, rumours abound that the European EIS delays have changed balance of advantages and disadvantages of staying out of Schengen.
The biggest reason for not joining, to have total control of our borders from those entering from Europe has failed, and being outside makes it harder to return people or let them freely move back.

 

[Sorcerer]

The access fees and St Pancras capacity are the bigger issues. Schengen is a barrier for whoever runs trains, and Eurostar does not have exclusive use of the border facilities, they simply got there first.

Schengen is a barrier because it means Ashford and Ebbsfleet require border control facilities. Given that the DfT and Eurostar don't seem willing to fund these, it would fall on Gemini to pay it forward, which means they will either lose revenue because the passenger numbers won't make up for the expense of operating them, or they will have to abandon the Kent station plans as a whole. Virgin and Trenitalia certainly won't fund it either.

Given that Gemini is proposing services to Germany, for which they will receive an initial discount in charges through the Chunnel, I don’t think they’re a Ryanair-style setup. Stratford international is connected to both financial centres of London, Canary Wharf and the Square Mile, by the DLR. If they offer fast border clearance for business passenger as Eurostar does then they could be offering a sustainable alternative for business travel to financial centres in Europe, that wouldn’t measure up badly against air travel times door-to-door. You could have a working lunch in London and still be in Brussels in time to give the Belgian team a roasting for their poor results.

I don't see it happening that way to be honest. It could be the equivalent of the business-only flight that used to run between London-City and New York-JFK via Shannon. Otherwise it would probably have to present itself with a low-cost setup otherwise the leisure passengers will already have a choice for going into Central London where their hotels are likely to be, with only the most budget-conscious ones opting to disembark at the East End.

As a side note I’m surprised that three serious players have come along basically all at once and I would like to know what changed to make that happen.

Getlink wants to make more use of tunnel capacity, the London to Paris/Brussels market is lucrative, and with a push to try and decarbonise there is opportunity for international rail contracts to present themselves as a greener alternative. If I were a billionaire owner of a multinational conglomerate or transport company, or even just a wealthy investor, I too would be taking interest in the market. I'd personally focus more on London to Paris, Brussels and Cologne/Frankfurt and potential Swiss destinations.

I still think that convincing southeastern to run up the WCML to somewhere like Milton Keynes would result in both a seamless and calmer international connection at Stratford, also a cross London commuter route and open up new people to the Kent seaside avoiding a nasty change in London.

I don't think it sounds horrible but I wouldn't bank on that being discussed before HS2.

 

[signed]

But the shift in economics may make an opening for a few more rail services from the South East of England to the near Continent.

Outside of the announced Frankfurt and Geneva services, we are very unlikely to see any other direct to UK route unless the UK folds and relax their requirements and negotiates lax border arrangements, up to and including joining Schengen (i.e. never)

And that is regardless of the health of the airlines

 

[Citybreak1]

Anybody not looking forward to the double decker trains I reckon the Siemens ones look best however the Virgin ones look good too.

 

[Bald Rick]

Various wars and disputes around the world having the potential to raise the price of oil to around $100 per barrel. That will hurt airlines a lot.

It won’t.

The average price of oil this century, in real terms, has been $91. They‘ve managed fine throughout that.

source: https://inflationdata.com/articles/inflation-adjusted-prices/historical-oil-prices-chart/

(too much to quote).

 

[danshrimp]

I see Eurostar are going public with disagreements with London St Pancras Highspeed over St Pancras capacity: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2026/07/12/eurostar-locked-in-passenger-row-with-st-pancras/

Eurostar is locked in a row with London St Pancras International over fears that surging passenger numbers will push the station to breaking point.

Gwendoline Cazenave, Eurostar’s chief executive, said she was at loggerheads with station bosses over how best to cope with a significant increase in trains using the Channel tunnel over the next few years.

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Unless more space is freed up for millions more passengers a year, the influx will lead to a meltdown at St Pancras, where people already have to queue to complete EU border formalities, she told The Telegraph.

St Pancras is the UK terminus for Eurostar, carrying passengers to Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam.

The Grade I-listed station is set for significant growth with the rollout of double-decker trains, known as Eurostar Celestia and new operators such as Virgin bringing millions more passengers over the next decade.

However, London St Pancras Highspeed, which runs the station, is declining to fund upgrades proposed by Eurostar and put forward its own plans instead, which it says will slash waiting times.

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Ms Cazenave said both sides were locked in disagreement.

“The big question we have with our St Pancras Highspeed friends is about our plans for a bigger footprint in the station,” she said.

“The major challenge for a cross-border train is the border itself and the customer experience of the border, and we need space for this. People who have travelled with us will know that in such a small space, you exit the UK, then you enter Schengen.

“This is about the bigger view for British customers and British growth. We need a longer-term vision beyond 2040 and the end of the concession of St Pancras Highspeed,” she added.

Since a major refurbishment two decades ago, London St Pancras – which was saved from demolition in the 1960s by John Betjeman, the poet and long-time Telegraph contributor – has become one of Britain’s most well-known stations.

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However, travellers to and from the Continent face poorly laid-out departure and arrival halls.

Eurostar passengers arriving from the EU must exit the station by descending via escalators to the floor below, which also houses departing passengers.

Having both sets of passengers on the lower level means space is cramped, with travellers often forced to stand in Eurostar’s departure lounge while they wait for their trains.

Under Eurostar’s plan, people arriving at St Pancras from the Continent would exit through the front of the station instead of going to the lower level.

The change would vastly expand the space available on the lower floor for British and French border control facilities and travellers waiting to board their train, Ms Cazenave said.

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“We are working on additional space, but don’t exactly have the same views. We want to use the upstairs area, where there’s a big space, a huge area of square metres, for arrivals,” she said.

“The first time I ever went to St Pancras, I said there’s no space problem here. You would come straight out onto the road of St Pancras and not need to go down into the station. Then you can use the whole place downstairs for borders.

Instead, London St Pancras Highspeed has proposed a series of incremental improvements that it says would increase passengers going through security from 2,500 an hour to 5,000 without the need for disruptive infrastructure work.

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The £100m plan would include turning queues sideways and extending them into the arrivals area, doubling the space for security checks so that passengers can board in 30 minutes. The Eurostar proposal would add a further £50m to the bill.

Ms Cazenave warned that the station’s stance will lead to chaotic scenes once the double-deckers – carrying more than 1,000 passengers – enter service in 2031. By this time, Sir Richard Branson’s Virgin and Italy’s Trenitalia may be operating a dozen trains apiece.

Ms Cazenave said the risk of a logjam could also frustrate Eurostar’s plans to launch services to Frankfurt and Geneva and that the row was doubly frustrating because Eurostar was spending £1.7bn on the new trains.

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She said: “We keep saying that it’s a golden era for international railways and the fact that there are new operators coming means that we’re right.

“We have put money on the table for new train sets because we believe in the market and that it’s going to grow.

“We are planning to go to Frankfurt and Geneva and we are working to answer the regulator’s expectations about sharing our depot with Virgin. But we need a project and a financing framework beyond 2040.”

London St Pancras Highspeed said it had been in discussions with Eurostar, the border authorities, the Department for Transport and Historic England for the past two years about plans to double passenger capacity at St Pancras, and would commence the detailed design phase in the autumn.

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“Demand for more sustainable international travel is increasing and we remain focused on getting the station ready to meet it,” a London St Pancras Highspeed spokesman said.

Ms Cazenave, who will have been chief executive for four years in September, said she was also hopeful that Andy Burnham, the presumptive prime minister, would try to tap into the potential of the Channel tunnel.

“We need to think big,” she said. “I’m not talking about money. I’m talking about rules, planning, space, business models, joining issues up rather than looking at them in isolation.

“There are several key topics on which we need a policy framework. Those are depot capacity, station incapacity, border fluidity and ways of working, the tax regime, regulation.

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“All of these need a political vision which is consistent and connected to push this growth in sustainable travel. That is what I am expecting from them.”

Given sufficient backing, Eurostar has the potential to make deep inroads into travel markets dominated by airlines rather than rail journeys of up to six hours, Ms Cazenave said, citing the success of the London-Amsterdam route.

Services which launched in 2018 were transformed last year following a major investment in new border facilities and lounges at Amsterdam’s Centraal station.

Since then, Eurostar has expanded its timetable to five trains a day, allowing it to double passenger numbers and capture more than 35pc of the overall London-Amsterdam travel market.

This makes it the biggest player before airlines, including KLM, the Dutch flag carrier.

“Amsterdam has been an amazing success,” she said. “People want to travel comfortably, city centre to city centre, and sustainably. And we can see that time on the train rather than in the airport is really useful for getting work done.”

She said that, thanks to the location of French officials at St Pancras, Eurostar had not suffered the same disruption as airports from the introduction of the new EU entry and exit scheme, which requires the collection of fingerprints and facial scans from non-EU citizens.

“We are very close to the border police and when they see that it’s a peak and it’s going to be complicated, they are flexible,” she said.

On other routes, including London to Paris and Brussels, Eurostar has an 85pc market share, having won over the vast majority of passengers who are not taking onward flights.

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Cazenave said she was not frightened by the prospect of taking on Virgin, which plans to launch Channel tunnel services in 2030, ending what by then will have been a 36-year Eurostar monopoly.

“When you’re a CEO that is not possible,” she said, adding that Eurostar’s ability to continue to offer “an understated, elegant experience” will also depend on a satisfactory outcome to the wrangling over St Pancras.

“This is really what we are working on,” she said. “What we want to do with Eurostar Celestia is to keep this seamless, smooth and caring experience.”

In short, Eurostar want LSPH to commit to moving arrivals upstairs (costing an extra £50m) to create extra capacity for departures; instead LSPH are sticking with a scaled back plan that just rearranges the downstairs area (total £100m).

 

[30907]

And will Eurostar fund it -even in part?

 

[Sorcerer]

In short, Eurostar want LSPH to commit to moving arrivals upstairs (costing an extra £50m) to create extra capacity for departures; instead LSPH are sticking with a scaled back plan that just rearranges the downstairs area (total £100m).

I've often seen criticisms about Euston being that arrivals tend to pass through the concourse area where departures will be waiting and result in major overcrowding, with some suggestions on the forums being to have a separate exit area available. Segregating the flow of traffic at a terminus station, especially one in Central London with little room to expand, isn't necessarily a bad idea. The question is, what would it entail and would it work compared to the alternatives?

 

[NCT]

One advantage of a railway station is that it’s not a frigging airport.

 

[speedy1]

One advantage of a railway station is that it’s not a frigging airport.

It's inevitable as it grows it will resemble an airport. It's the operational cost of handling more passengers and dealing with modern issues. You'd have to want less rail growth at StP (or argue for perhaps more termini, at even more cost...not the worst thing in theory)

 

[signed]

One advantage of a railway station is that it’s not a frigging airport.

It’s a byproduct of needing wildly inefficient border (and security) controls with 1000+ passengers in 1 train.

I fear the time when they’ll (i.e. now) absolutely need to expand border control capacity at Gare du Nord

 

[Austriantrain]

And will Eurostar fund it -even in part?

They and their competitors will, through user charges. Airports aren’t funded differently. It might be that the station operator doesn’t believe they can, but it is a bit self-defeating. If they don’t expand the station enough, not enough passengers will be able to travel.

In any case, that could all be modelled to see what the operator‘s reaction is. Vienna Airport, who had fought for it through two decades, ditched the third runway recently when they realised airlines would not bear the additional charges and they could not refinance if.

 

[Krokodil]

Airports aren’t funded differently.

Some get subsidised.

Look at the situation in NL where Schipol's immigration officials are funded by the Dutch government, but Eurostar has to pay for the ones at its terminals.

 

[Mikey C]

One advantage of a railway station is that it’s not a frigging airport.

As Eurostar stations require border controls and luggage security scanning, they are more like airports than normal railway stations.

 

[TheWierdOne]

As Eurostar stations require border controls and luggage security scanning, they are more like airports than normal railway stations.

Although, for all the faults of the current set up, it does incur far less waiting around than a normal international airport. Every time I’ve used Eurostar I’ve been whizzed through security and border control and onto the train in around an hour, save for the first couple of times I travelled when I rocked up far earlier than necessary and had to wait for the queue to open. They also have the bonus of being far more relaxed about taking food and drink through security, as I found out when I walked through border control holding a meal deal.

Contrast that with my trips by air and I’ve usually spent the same amount of time just sitting around or waiting in a queue.

 

[Krokodil]

As Eurostar stations require border controls and luggage security scanning, they are more like airports than normal railway stations.

It's more like a ferryport, far fewer restrictions and less faff than an airport.