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What changes could be made to services on the Waterloo–Reading line?

sharpener

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Not step-free, whereas Vauxhall is.
IIRC after the long corridor at Vauxhall underground there are steps up to the street before you get into the SR station (where there is indeed lift access to the platforms). Not ideal but preferable to the even longer walk at Waterloo.

For that there is the alternative of cross-platform at Clapham Junction. Same number of changes.

Not sure what destination you are envisaging here. My original comment was a reference to the single Victoria line leg to KGX.
 
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Dstock7080

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IIRC after the long corridor at Vauxhall underground there are steps up to the street before you get into the SR station (where there is indeed lift access to the platforms).
No need to access the long subway, lift from bus station side forecourt into LU station ticket hall.
 

43096

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Not sure what destination you are envisaging here. My original comment was a reference to the single Victoria line leg to KGX.

My point is that the Vauxhall stop in the Reading service is unnecessary. There's already perfectly good options for getting to (say) King's Cross:
- train to Waterloo
- Bakerloo line to Oxford Circus for cross platform change
- Victoria line to King's Cross

The point was then made about step free access availability:
- train to Clapham Jct for cross platform change
- train to Vauxhall
- Victoria line to King's Cross

No difference in terms of number of changes, and only applies to anyone travelling from beyond Staines. From Staines inwards the Windsor services call at Vauxhall. So, I'll say it again: the Vauxhall stop on the Reading trains is not needed and serves only to lengthen the journey times yet again.
 
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cle

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Vauxhall is a major station. It is like a Waterloo East, may as well call there. Yes the Victoria line is there (you are in eg Euston or KXSP far quicker than going via Waterloo, and it has a HUGE benefit in not pushing people via Victoria itself)

It is also a destination of sorts - access to the South Bank, Millbank/Tate, tons of development (residential population is expanded massively) - plus nightlife, Oval... not least, a big bus station!

As for the stopping nature of the rest of it - 4tph to Reading and 4tph to Windsor would see adequate patterns, and frequency which could mitigate against slower trains. Both extras via Hounslow - Windsor could be a stopper.

4tph into Reading from the Staines direction could see some calls missed (certainly Longcross but maybe Winnersh Triangle, Martins Heron... could be fine with 2tph) - and if 2tph went via the loop, I'd go for Brentford only due to the development there.

I would flight the whole thing Japan style - local, rapid, limited express (semi & fast in our vernacular) - but the rounder via Wimbledon throws off being independent to a degree.

Also, could the main Shepperton service run via Richmond (maybe in lieu of the rounder) - to squeeze in another stopper which peels off as it gets caught up.

Twickenham's lines and platforms might have more potential to be used too.
 

JonathanH

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This isn't optimal, as roads get congested, Twyford car park fills up before the locals can make use of it, and high capacity SWR services aren't utilised to their full extent.
Those trains still 'do their bit' further east with the high capacity being well used at Twickenham and Richmond, and people using those stations for interchange.

Even if the Reading to Waterloo line didn't have lots of 'worthy' stations, the reality is that the line runs north-south through Virginia Water, and has a really slow reverse curve at Staines.

Years ago, one idea was remodelling Twickenham to have a dynamic loop that might have the effect of enabling faster services. I've sometimes wondered whether reinstating the third side of the triangle at Virginia Water would offer faster services for East Berkshire stations.
 

brad465

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The western end of the route could do with 4tph at least, ideally all the way to/from Waterloo, as stations like Bracknell and to a lesser extent Ascot having only 2tph off peak is doing these very busy stations a disservice. Bracknell in particular is busy both to London and Reading.
 

Mark J

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Is there no scope for line speeds to be increased to 80, or even 85mph in places?

There are several fairly long stretches of straight(ish) track.

Wokingham to Bracknell

Staines to Feltham/Twickenham.

Better use of the Barnes to Waterloo four track section as fast/slow lines. Plus increase the line speed of the 'fast' tracks.

The problem is with funneling ever more trains down this line is the amount of level crossings.

Recently I was stuck at the Barnes level crossing (on Vine Road) for well over five minutes waiting for the line to be clear and the barriers to raise. Shortly after, the barriers went down again. A ridiculous situation.

I also think these barriers go down far too early, as you can be waiting a fairly considerable time before a train passes.

Also, I agree with a no to a regular Putney stops on Reading to Waterloo services.

Putney can easily be reached by a simple change at Richmond, onto a Windsor & Eton service heading towards Waterloo.
 

JonathanH

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Twickenham's lines and platforms might have more potential to be used too.
Yes, Twickenham has cried out for remodelling for a long time given the space that still exists at that location even after the station buildings were changed.
Also, could the main Shepperton service run via Richmond (maybe in lieu of the rounder) - to squeeze in another stopper which peels off as it gets caught up.
I'm not sure that works given the need to provide 4tph at Teddington and Kingston.
Is there no scope for line speeds to be increased to 80, or even 85mph in places?
In railway terms it is a backwater with stops every five to seven minutes. In those terms getting above 70mph saves a few seconds here and there.
 

WAO

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Pre NSE, you could do Reading - Waterloo in 59 minutes, so competitive with Paddington if you wanted to be near Waterloo/Strand. A lovely journey in those splendid Mark 1 electric 4CIG's. They were very reliable. I would be late 4 times a year on them; via Paddington I was late twice a week!

Down trains often had to queue at Twickenham because of the 3 road layout. It needs the fourth (up slow) road reinstating to make any timetable work.

Connections are important here as the intermediate markets are greater than the end-to-end market. Ascot, Staines (for Heathrow), Richmond and Clapham Jn (for SW/Central Divisions - "not via London" tickets valid) are probably the key interchanges, to allow access to most stations with only one change. Two of the stops are at speed restricted points so would have less impact.

Most services seem to be 8-car so there is plenty of capacity within existing paths.

WAO
 
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Pre NSE, you could do Reading - Waterloo in 59 minutes, so competitive with Paddington if you wanted to be near Waterloo/Strand. A lovely journey in those splendid Mark 1 electric 4CIG's. They were very reliable. I would be late 4 times a year on them; via Paddington I was late twice a week!

Down trains often had to queue at Twickenham because of the 3 road layout. It needs the fourth (up slow) road reinstating to make any timetable work.

Connections are important here as the intermediate markets are greater than the end-to-end market. Ascot, Staines (for Heathrow), Richmond and Clapham Jn (for SW/Central Divisions - "not via London" tickets valid) are probably the key interchanges, to allow access to most stations with only one change. Two of the stops are at speed restricted points so would have less impact.

Most services seem to be 8-car so there is plenty of capacity within existing paths.

WAO
It's Feltham for Heathrow. Multiple bus options just outside the station. No such facilities at Staines
 

JonathanH

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It's Feltham for Heathrow. Multiple bus options just outside the station. No such facilities at Staines
Yes, it is Feltham now, although route 442 still runs from Staines to Heathrow Terminal 5, albeit involving a walk to the nearest bus stop. The opening of the north east exit at Feltham has made bus transfer a little smoother.
 

Mark J

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Pre NSE, you could do Reading - Waterloo in 59 minutes, so competitive with Paddington if you wanted to be near Waterloo/Strand.
What stations were not stopped at to achieve a 59 minute service between Reading and Waterloo?

Nowadays, it takes exactly an hour to go from Earley to Richmond.
 

cle

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I think some services were non-stop Staines-Ascot and Staines-Richmond. I could imagine some could go fast Reading-Wokingham.
 

The Pelican

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The Waterloo-Reading line always seems like it could do with some limited three-or four tracking. Could one of the terminating platforms at Richmond be converted to a through platform, and transferred to SWR?
 

JonathanH

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The Waterloo-Reading line always seems like it could do with some limited three-or four tracking. Could one of the terminating platforms at Richmond be converted to a through platform, and transferred to SWR?
As noted above, Twickenham rather than Richmond has the space for any track layout changes. The width of the western approach to Richmond would be near impossible to change.
 

WAO

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What stations were not stopped at to achieve a 59 minute service between Reading and Waterloo?

Nowadays, it takes exactly an hour to go from Earley to Richmond.
All stations to Ascot, then Staines and Waterloo.

Now we also have Winnersh Triangle and Martin's Heron. Feltham was omitted as it is in the 70mph stretch from Staines to Feltham Jn

Fasts and stoppers were interleaved at Ascot with Camberley trains to give 4 trains/hour, two fast (from Ascot) two stopping, all stations to Staines then Feltham, Richmond Clapham Jn and Waterloo. Gradually intermediate stops were added, probably as this is a very successful, well used route. It deserves 4 track Twickers! Longcross was often served by the train slowing with the guard watching to see whether a window was opening (slammers!), if nothing seen then the bells and the train accelerated! You could also cross platforms at Ascot by going across/through the train standing on the up main, rather than the subway.

Such times!

WAO
 

The Pelican

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As noted above, Twickenham rather than Richmond has the space for any track layout changes. The width of the western approach to Richmond would be near impossible to change.
I wonder if the Richmond Platform 2/ Platform 3 island could be moved eastward, and dug away at the Western end to allow a crossover to a slow London platform where 3 is? I agree this would ideally be combined with 4 platforms at Twickenham, a full use of the 3 at St Margret's, and as much triple or quadruple tracking in between as possible.
 

JonathanH

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I wonder if the Richmond Platform 2/ Platform 3 island could be moved eastward, and dug away at the Western end to allow a crossover to a slow London platform where 3 is? I agree this would ideally be combined with 4 platforms at Twickenham, a full use of the 3 at St Margret's, and as much triple or quadruple tracking in between as possible.
Given where the station entrance is, and concourse area, I just can't see how that sort of upheaval would work at Richmond or be countenanced. In the up direction the two track is only from St Margarets to Barnes in any case, and trains would suffer too long a delay in a short loop.

The level crossings at North Sheen, Mortlake and Barnes would be a continuing constraint on running more services.
 

cle

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Imagine a Staines-Waterloo fast run today! Unimaginable capacity wise, but yes also this route is so heavily used for intermediate journeys. And of course Richmond is a major interchange, as is CJ.

Richmond p3 isn't that well used, but potentially it could turn some peak local services... running right in front of a fast catching it up... but they would have to be relatively short-formed. And would create a crossing conflict when terminating. Good for flighting after a fast when leaving though - could it get to Barnes in time before the Windsor semi... ?!
 

brad465

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If 4tph allowed 2tph to be semi-fast, the top contenders for stations being skipped would be Earley, Winnersh Triangle, Winnersh, Martins Heron, Sunningdale and Longcross. Nowadays anymore than that would be missing some very-well used stations. Are there also any time savings to be had from improved 701 acceleration?
 

JonathanH

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Imagine a Staines-Waterloo fast run today! Unimaginable capacity wise, but yes also this route is so heavily used for intermediate journeys. And of course Richmond is a major interchange, as is CJ.
It really depends on what goes first on the train planning graph. Prior to the 2004 changes, the 1807 from Waterloo to Reading was fast from Clapham Junction to Feltham, and the 0713 from Reading was Ascot - Staines - Richmond - Clapham Junction - Waterloo. However, the change in December 2004 was to introduce a more comprehensive and even stopping service and that was the end of any semblence of fast services.

Key problem was ensuring the 1807 got through Barnes in front of the 1802 Kingston loop service. If it didn't then that was a 15 minute late arrival in Reading.

If 4tph allowed 2tph to be semi-fast, the top contenders for stations being skipped would be Earley, Winnersh Triangle, Winnersh, Martins Heron, Sunningdale and Longcross. Nowadays anymore than that would be missing some very-well used stations. Are there also any time savings to be had from improved 701 acceleration?
Virginia Water used to be omitted from faster services as well. Trouble with missing out too many stations is that the two services would catch each other up. Back at the turn of the century, the two off-peak trains to Reading each half hour went through Staines six minutes apart.
Richmond p3 isn't that well used, but potentially it could turn some peak local services... running right in front of a fast catching it up... but they would have to be relatively short-formed. And would create a crossing conflict when terminating.
No connection between the SWR lines and the terminating platforms nowadays, and I don't see one being put back.
 
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London Trains

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I definitely agree with 4tph Waterloo to Reading, but I'm not too sure if it would be worth the extra 2tph skipping any stations (apart from Longcross) - a fast service would definitely be beneficial, but there is even more justification to increase the frequency of semi-fast services to Richmond, Twickenham, Feltham and Staines (just look at their passenger figures), and between Staines and Wokingham I'd say all of the stations apart from Longcross do justify 4tph. Maybe the stops between Wokingham and Reading could be skipped by the additional 2tph, but a 4tph service at these stations might encourage more people to use the railway for local journeys in the area?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

There are 6 trains an hour from Feltham to Waterloo.

Reducing that to 5 would be no hardship, and is certainly not halving the service provision.
There are only 4tph of usable services between Feltham and Waterloo (the other two are stoppers via the Hounslow Loop and are overtaken), and its usage justifies more services, not less.
 
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Mgameing123

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I definitely agree with 4tph Waterloo to Reading, but I'm not too sure if it would be worth the extra 2tph skipping any stations (apart from Longcross) - a fast service would definitely be beneficial, but there is even more justification to increase the frequency of semi-fast services to Richmond, Twickenham, Feltham and Staines (just look at their passenger figures), and between Staines and Wokingham I'd say all of the stations apart from Longcross do justify 4tph. Maybe the stops between Wokingham and Reading could be skipped by the additional 2tph, but a 4tph service at these stations might encourage more people to use the railway for local journeys in the area?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


There are only 4tph of usable services between Feltham and Waterloo (the other two are stoppers via the Hounslow Loop and are overtaken), and its usage justifies more services, not less.
What’s the point of a fast service from Reading when you have the GWR?
 

JonathanH

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What’s the point of a fast service from Reading when you have the GWR?
You are right that there is no call for a non-stop service from Reading to Waterloo. However, journey times from Wokingham and Bracknell towards London are such that people drive to Twyford and Maidenhead, or Fleet and Farnborough, rather than using their local station. This may not necessarily be a bad thing if it means a better service exists for passengers further east but may be seen as bad from the point of view of overloading car parks and causing local traffic issues. By all means have services return east from Wokingham if that is what makes them viable but Reading is a natural traffic objective.

(In practice, the chance of any enhancement of the Waterloo to Reading line is close to nil, but it is an interesting discussion to consider the practical barriers which lead to that view.)
 

cle

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What’s the point of a fast service from Reading when you have the GWR?
it's for Wokingham, Bracknell, Ascot, Egham and Staines, mainly. But Reading is an excellent place to have at the other end, with tons of inbound demand and connections.
 

davews

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If you skip stations like Martins Heron that means that those stations get no advantage from the fast services. When 4tp services were previously used it was very unpopular with Martins Heron users, the station is remarkably busy at peak times.

I would support a fast service that was all stops Reading to Staines less Longcross then fast to Waterloo.
 
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Maybe the stops between Wokingham and Reading could be skipped by the additional 2tph, but a 4tph service at these stations might encourage more people to use the railway for local journeys in the area?
Two trains per hour skipping Earley etc would be ok, if changes to the Reading-Guildford line timetable could be contrived that would allow one such train per hour to call at Earley etc.
This would enhance a lot of local connections. And alleviate situations like the one that occurred the other day. A level crossing failure between Bracknell and Wokingham led to trains from Waterloo being turned round at Bracknell. GWR trains didn't do additional stops at Winnersh, Winnersh Triangle and Earley, and these station had no trains stopping for 6 hours.
(Unusually, there was no ticket acceptance on Reading Buses, which is presumably an economy measure.)
No doubt GWR trains stopping at Earley etc is as unlikely as 4 trains per hour between Reading and Waterloo!
 

davews

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I was affected by Monday's chaos as I had a hospital appointment at Royal Berks. They eventually introduced RRB between Bracknell and Reading but since the train I wanted to Bracknell was cancelled anyway that was little use. From Martins Heron I walked to Bracknell bus station (no suitably timed buses) then caught the 4A to Reading - which being a senior was free whereas the RBB would have needed a train ticket! Surprisingly the 4A was not full. 4A back as well, though the service started again while I was on the bus.
 

squingo44

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Realistically, what the line needs is a new underground line to be built between Feltham and Barnes so that the core of the line can be run exclusively as an express service. And that's a long way off happening. Maybe we can get a Chelsea-Hackney tube line after Crossrail 2.
 

JonathanH

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Maybe we can get a Chelsea-Hackney tube line after Crossrail 2.
Aren't those the same thing?

Realistically, what the line needs is a new underground line to be built between Feltham and Barnes so that the core of the line can be run exclusively as an express service.
I don't think it needs to go underground until Richmond. I wonder if a cut and cover line could be built fairly quickly if the line closed for a period, then the surface land sold off to be used for housing to pay for the work. The line of route would represent quite valuable real estate.
 

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