Why should I trust rail travel?

[Shrop]

There are plenty of staff but such is the rate of pay now particuarly for drivers that there is no incentive to work extra anymore. You can add to that that management/staff agreements at operators such as XC have had this non-commitment to work Sundays agreed from both sides. It was obvious to me and anyone with any sense that it was always going to be a bargaining tool for unions and beggars belief that management thought it a good idea. Anyways it’s done now and we are where we are. How we get out of it is going to be a very difficult task indeed.

Hmm, your comment is reflective of modern society, and I remain convinced that modern thinking is the downfall of railways in the UK.

When I was at school, and later at university, myself and numerous people I knew would have driven trains thinking very little about the money. So long as we had enough to live on, we'd have done it out of an inner passion for the railways.

I tried to get such a job, but back then wearing glasses was seen as breaking a golden rule, and so my application was declined with this being given as the reason.

But these days working for the railways seems to be ruled by earnings first almost every time, right through the industry, with genuine passion for the industry being very much beaten into second place.

And that is a big factor in why UK railways have so many failings.

(I'm going off line now for a couple of days whilst at sea, but do feel free to respond and I'll catch up again soon).

 

[dk1]

Hmm, your comment is reflective of modern society, and I remain convinced that modern thinking is the downfall of railways in the UK.

When I was at school, and later at university, myself and numerous people I knew would have driven trains thinking very little about the money. So long as we had enough to live on, we'd have done it out of an inner passion for the railways.

I tried to get such a job, but back then wearing glasses was seen as breaking a golden rule, and so my application was declined with this being given as the reason.

But these days working for the railways seems to be ruled by earnings first almost every time, right through the industry, with genuine passion for the industry being very much beaten into second place.

And that is a big factor in why UK railways have so many failings.

(I'm going off line now for a couple of days whilst at sea, but do feel free to respond and I'll catch up again soon).

Unfortunately one way or the other that’s life and the reality of a career in train driving for most now. I have trained so many from the emergency services and others who only see that and have no interest in railways at all.

 

[eldomtom2]

Again this only works if you employ enough staff to cover all seven days and/or offer a sufficiently attractive rate of overtime to encourage volunteers to fill the gaps.

Ultimately solving this is in the hands of the DfT and the Treasury.

Frankly at this point it is probably a false economy to not have Sundays in the working week, considering the importance of reliable trains to a) attract passengers and b) retain political support for subsidies.

 

[Krokodil]

When I was at school, and later at university, myself and numerous people I knew would have driven trains thinking very little about the money.

BR was able to pay poverty wages because it was a monopoly (the amount of overtime which used to be worked to actually earn a respectable living was insane, and the extremes which went on in those days are now banned for good reason). Then someone decided that it would be a good idea to break the railway up into many little pieces, each competing against each other to attract skilled staff. So wages went up because it was cheaper to poach drivers than to train one's own.

The cat is out of the bag, it's not going back in now.

 

[LowLevel]

Hmm, your comment is reflective of modern society, and I remain convinced that modern thinking is the downfall of railways in the UK.

When I was at school, and later at university, myself and numerous people I knew would have driven trains thinking very little about the money. So long as we had enough to live on, we'd have done it out of an inner passion for the railways.

I tried to get such a job, but back then wearing glasses was seen as breaking a golden rule, and so my application was declined with this being given as the reason.

But these days working for the railways seems to be ruled by earnings first almost every time, right through the industry, with genuine passion for the industry being very much beaten into second place.

And that is a big factor in why UK railways have so many failings.

(I'm going off line now for a couple of days whilst at sea, but do feel free to respond and I'll catch up again soon).

I am going to go out on a limb here and say I am not financially motivated myself and love my job as a guard and will generally, within reason, go (well) beyond my T&Cs to keep trains moving and sort out problems.

The vast majority of the newer generation of train drivers who I work closely with who have perhaps mostly joined chasing the headline wage are actually perfectly obliging, committed and helpful employees who do their best and will also go above and beyond when they're there.

That doesn't however stretch to chasing endless rest days and coming in on your days off unless it is mutually beneficial.

If it's boiling hot and I've just done my stretch of 7 or more shifts without a day off, up to 10 hours a day, I don't necessarily want to come in and do more no matter how short of staff they are.

 

[NCT]

Heavens forbid employees are paid market wages and have some market power!

 

[yorksrob]

Expecting people to routinely work on their days off seems a bit of a non-starter to me.

 

[Shrop]

BR was able to pay poverty wages because it was a monopoly (the amount of overtime which used to be worked to actually earn a respectable living was insane, and the extremes which went on in those days are now banned for good reason). Then someone decided that it would be a good idea to break the railway up into many little pieces, each competing against each other to attract skilled staff. So wages went up because it was cheaper to poach drivers than to train one's own.

The cat is out of the bag, it's not going back in now.

This just underlines my point about being motivated by money first, and enthusiasm for the railways a poor second.

Nobody would expect (nor should be expected) to work for "poverty wages". However, with financial reward being so paramount (perhaps among senior managers even more than staff on the trains), the focus on passenger welfare becomes too blurred.

Which in turn explains why Sunday rail travel (even more than weekday travel) is such a lottery these days, and why so many people just don't want to take the chance of using it.

It's not just about wages. Suggesting "poverty wages" is another wrong focus, of course staff should expect a fair reward, but neither should everything be about wages.

Some staff still have a genuine passion for railways, and some senior managers too, but the industry has been infiltrated by so many who care little or nothing for passenger welfare, so long as their own pocket is lined.

Yes that particular cat is out of the bag. Do we want it put back? If not, then our railways will probably always be inferior to many rail systems abroad.

 

[johncrossley]

It seems to be a belief that service quality doesn't matter. The trains are crowded regardless despite poor service, so it doesn't matter how bad the service is. Therefore there is no point trying to improve the service. Strikes don't matter. Passengers come back after the strike regardless.

 

[Snow1964]

When you're just trying to get home from work and LNWR rip out the Trent Valley stops because a train is delayed, leaving a 2 hour gap in services, it get's boring very quickly...

I commuted for over 25 years, and would get disruption occasionally, perhaps few times a year, but nowadays the cancellation rate in some areas is diabolical, nearer once a week.

eg GWR latest (lack of) performance
Bristol suburban 9.11% cancelled
London-Cotswolds 10.38% cancelled
South Wales - South Coast 11.3% cancelled

If making 5 return journeys per week and statistically one gets cancelled then not going to recommend commuting by train. Want a reliable alternative

https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-website/files/publications/performance-report/gwr-performance-report-period-2703.pdf

 

[speedy1]

Delay repay, particulary the Grayling changes, has helped normalise delays and cancellations IMHO. Never Trust the Tories LOL

Annual Public Performance Measure (PPM) has continued its pre COVID decline.

 

[The exile]

Delay repay, particulary the Grayling changes, has helped normalise delays and cancellations IMHO. Never Trust the Tories LOL

Annual Public Performance Measure (PPM) has continued its pre COVID decline.

As does the overriding importance given to targets and stats on paper. A cumulative delay of 1000 passenger minutes looks worse on paper than one of 600 minutes. In reality, the first might be accrued by 1 packed train being 1 minute late, none of whom are going to be as inconvenienced as Mr and Mrs Smith and their 2 children sat waiting in the rain for 2 1/2 hours because a connection wasn’t held.

 

[speedy1]

As does the overriding importance given to targets and stats on paper. A cumulative delay of 1000 passenger minutes looks worse on paper than one of 600 minutes. In reality, the first might be accrued by 1 packed train being 1 minute late, none of whom are going to be as inconvenienced as Mr and Mrs Smith and their 2 children sat waiting in the rain for 2 1/2 hours because a connection wasn’t held.

What statistics would you recommend that accurately summarise the performance of the rail network? Do you prefer opinion polls/customer surveys?

 

[Russel]

I commuted for over 25 years, and would get disruption occasionally, perhaps few times a year, but nowadays the cancellation rate in some areas is diabolical, nearer once a week.

eg GWR latest (lack of) performance
Bristol suburban 9.11% cancelled
London-Cotswolds 10.38% cancelled
South Wales - South Coast 11.3% cancelled

If making 5 return journeys per week and statistically one gets cancelled then not going to recommend commuting by train. Want a reliable alternative

https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-website/files/publications/performance-report/gwr-performance-report-period-2703.pdf

It can get tiresome, I only commute 3 days a week and some are worse than others, last week was a bad one, I got 75℅ of what I'd spent on tickets over the week back in delay repay.

Edit to add: Right on cue, my train home today is cancelled resulting an an hour bus ride, that makes it about a 50℅ success rate over the last couple of weeks, I'm not sure how anyone can defend this...

 

[johncrossley]

What statistics would you recommend that accurately summarise the performance of the rail network? Do you prefer opinion polls/customer surveys?

The Swiss report the percentage of missed connections.

 

[RT4038]

The Swiss report the percentage of missed connections.

However, that would not take into account the number of passengers missing their connections, or the effect of those missed connections.

 

[johncrossley]

However, that would not take into account the number of passengers missing their connections, or the effect of those missed connections.

I think they actually take into account the number passengers who miss connections.

 

[eldomtom2]

As does the overriding importance given to targets and stats on paper. A cumulative delay of 1000 passenger minutes looks worse on paper than one of 600 minutes. In reality, the first might be accrued by 1 packed train being 1 minute late, none of whom are going to be as inconvenienced as Mr and Mrs Smith and their 2 children sat waiting in the rain for 2 1/2 hours because a connection wasn’t held.

What statistics would you recommend that accurately summarise the performance of the rail network? Do you prefer opinion polls/customer surveys?

Number of passengers delayed more than X minutes might be useful.

 

[LlanishenBull]

If someone is only contracted to work Monday to Saturday, as many drivers, guards and signallers are, why do you expect them to work on their day off?
As has been said many times on this forum, the unions are quite happy to negotiate bringing Sundays into the working week, and recognise the extra cost that will entail the employer and therefore the passenger, but it is the employers who don't seem to be willing to join that negotiation.

Am I correct in saying tfw have agreed updated contracts with their staff that includes Sunday working?

 

[speedy1]

The Swiss report the percentage of missed connections.

Does this mean rail connections, i.e. ignoring all trips on direct services?

 

[The exile]

Does this mean rail connections, i.e. ignoring all trips on direct services?

It’s not necessarily the only metric. As you say, it alone wouldn’t pick up journeys involving no changes., which are also important, though less likely to leave someone stranded in the middle of nowhere.

 

[speedy1]

I see, some people are just interested in being negative about the current established metrics and wish only to make non-serious alternative suggestions. Not a useful sub discussion at all

 

[Krokodil]

However, that would not take into account the number of passengers missing their connections, or the effect of those missed connections.

It cannot be beyond the wit of man to come up with a system that estimates origin-destination passenger delays. Anyone on advance tickets we already know the journey they are making (to the extent that auto delay repay is increasingly common). For any other ticket associated with a reservation or counted place we know what journey they probably tried. Barrier entries for smart tickets will give a good idea of what time the customer started their journey and therefore produce a predicted itinerary. For the rest (which will mostly involve fairly simple journeys) you can use passenger count data to allocate passengers proportionately across services.

So you've got a load of planned itineraries, you compare each against the actual timings on the day.

It would only be an estimate, but at least it provides a better picture of how passengers are disrupted across their whole journeys. So long as the method is consistent over time it can be used to measure trends.

Am I correct in saying tfw have agreed updated contracts with their staff that includes Sunday working?

They did. By recruiting & training heavily and offering substantial pay rises to guards and drivers to bring Sundays inside the working week.

 

[al78]

It seems to be a belief that service quality doesn't matter. The trains are crowded regardless despite poor service, so it doesn't matter how bad the service is. Therefore there is no point trying to improve the service. Strikes don't matter. Passengers come back after the strike regardless.

In other words, the consequences of poorness are externalised. There lies your problem.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2026 ==

This just about sums it up:

"Travelling by train ought to be a low-cost, low-stress and low-carbon way of getting around. The railways ought to have a simple ticketing system, a timetable set a year ahead, along with the designated platforms. Railway technology is pretty simple, the assets are obvious and well-defined, and digitalisation ought to be massively reducing the costs, bringing labour costs down to a much more automated service.

That’s the theory, and that is what some other countries manage. Switzerland comes to mind. So why are UK railways so bad and yet so expensive? Why are trains often late, cancelled at short notice, reduced in the number of carriages? Why is information so poor? Why do minor technical problems with the trains so often cause chaos? A train door not opening, a hooter not working, toilets out of use, no catering or hot water, no seat reservations, trains in the wrong order and too often a simple lack of information?

The problems are not easily explained away by the two standard and mostly unconvincing scapegoats: the unions and privatisation. They reflect a railway that has lost its basic sense of purpose. There is a culture of decline, and a widespread view that improving the railways is a hopeless task, a bit like reforming the NHS. It is what it is and will ever more be like this."

 

[johncrossley]

Does this mean rail connections, i.e. ignoring all trips on direct services?

They also report the percentage of trains arriving less than 3 minutes late. There's nothing special about passengers who happen to be on a direct train.

 

[yorksrob]

In other words, the consequences of poorness are externalised. There lies your problem.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2026 ==

This just about sums it up:

"Travelling by train ought to be a low-cost, low-stress and low-carbon way of getting around. The railways ought to have a simple ticketing system, a timetable set a year ahead, along with the designated platforms. Railway technology is pretty simple, the assets are obvious and well-defined, and digitalisation ought to be massively reducing the costs, bringing labour costs down to a much more automated service.

That’s the theory, and that is what some other countries manage. Switzerland comes to mind. So why are UK railways so bad and yet so expensive? Why are trains often late, cancelled at short notice, reduced in the number of carriages? Why is information so poor? Why do minor technical problems with the trains so often cause chaos? A train door not opening, a hooter not working, toilets out of use, no catering or hot water, no seat reservations, trains in the wrong order and too often a simple lack of information?

I think that there's a fundamental problem that a lot of the main decisions are made by wealthy people, often based in London who have access to motor transport and who see public transport outside of the capital as an optional extra, rather than a vital service.

 

[Sonic1234]

It seems to be a belief that service quality doesn't matter. The trains are crowded regardless despite poor service, so it doesn't matter how bad the service is. Therefore there is no point trying to improve the service. Strikes don't matter. Passengers come back after the strike regardless.

This thinking on the railways has really intensified in recent times. Anyone who has dealt with Customer Relations will know this.

With rail being the only viable option in a lot of cases, and a growing population, who cares if you personally abandon the railway - someone else will take your seat. If you do give up on the train, it's a win for the Treasury too as you'll likely switch to highly-taxed driving.

This thinking is also killing customer service in a lot of other areas. I had cause to complain to McDonalds once and they couldn't care less, go to a McDs especially on a weekend or in a school holiday and you'll see why - they can't cope with the demand, just like XC. If anything, they need more people to give up on them.

 

[yorksrob]

This thinking on the railways has really intensified in recent times. Anyone who has dealt with Customer Relations will know this.

With rail being the only viable option in a lot of cases, and a growing population, who cares if you personally abandon the railway - someone else will take your seat. If you do give up on the train, it's a win for the Treasury too as you'll likely switch to highly-taxed driving.

This thinking is also killing customer service in a lot of other areas. I had cause to complain to McDonalds once and they couldn't care less, go to a McDs especially on a weekend or in a school holiday and you'll see why - they can't cope with the demand, just like XC. If anything, they need more people to give up on them.

I was very much affected by the never-ending rail strikes in the North a few years ago. I wouldn't place the blame solely at the railway industry staff/management.

Government was happy to sit around for years and do nothing. It takes two to tango.

 

[MattRat]

It's important to remember that there are good TOCs. Do some research, and if they are in your area, try to use them instead. It's not perfect, but it's a silver lining

 

[Russel]

It's important to remember that there are good TOCs. Do some research, and if they are in your area, try to use them instead. It's not perfect, but it's a silver lining

I fully agree, I can't praise Greater Anglia enough for how they managed to get a reasonable service up and running by lunchtime on Saturday following the fire at Stratford overnight, the staff couldn't have been more helpful either.

Yet Avanti on the other hand, well, actually I think I've been vocal enough about them over the last few days on here, so we'll leave it there I think.