Potential uses for GA Aventra 720s

[dk1]

Those spare should be used as refurb floats for the fleet. The 720s have terrible seats and a terrible layout and it all needs redoing.

Are you seriously suggesting those expensive almost brand new trains become Christmas trees?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Are you seriously suggesting those expensive almost brand new trains become Christmas trees?

No, I think it's being suggested that there can be a group sent for refurbishment without any reduction in service due to the spares (compared to e.g. Northern 769s, where two ex-TfW examples were brought in to cover).

 

[rmHawk765]

Are you seriously suggesting those expensive almost brand new trains become Christmas trees?

The 3+2 layout really doesn't work too well for Hertford East and Bishop's Stortford though, it's unfortunately true and as usual it was a load of DfT nonsense. Ultimately the better option would be to just increase service levels but the WAML is basically stuck at its current services levels until it is 4-tracked.

 

[dk1]

The 3+2 layout really doesn't work too well for Hertford East and Bishop's Stortford though, it's unfortunately true and as usual it was a load of DfT nonsense. Ultimately the better option would be to just increase service levels but the WAML is basically stuck at its current services levels until it is 4-tracked.

Everything is at the behest of the DfT now so I can see no service enhancements on the west on the horizon and the only tinkering with the fleet internally would be if any are selected for the cash cow that is Stansted Airport.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jul 2026 ==

No, I think it's being suggested that there can be a group sent for refurbishment without any reduction in service due to the spares (compared to e.g. Northern 769s, where two ex-TfW examples were brought in to cover).

Thanks for explaining as was rather into how I read into that.

 

[saismee]

No, I think it's being suggested that there can be a group sent for refurbishment without any reduction in service due to the spares (compared to e.g. Northern 769s, where two ex-TfW examples were brought in to cover).

I suppose it's actually a good thing that there's spares and we shouldn't be trying to get rid of them. There's very little downside beyond cost, and the current service and reliability is already justifying that cost. I can't think of a time a 720 has had a fault bar DOO cameras.

 

[rmHawk765]

I suppose it's actually a good thing that there's spares and we shouldn't be trying to get rid of them. There's very little downside beyond cost, and the current service and reliability is already justifying that cost. I can't think of a time a 720 has had a fault bar DOO cameras.

I mean, it certainly doesn't hurt GA's reliability which is praised a lot now.

 

[Mikey C]

I mean, it certainly doesn't hurt GA's reliability which is praised a lot now.

It's not hard to run a reliable service, when you've been given a complete fleet renewal with new trains, and have lots of spare 720s also.

It's all the other operators having to cope with hand me downs or aging stock, where it's tough.

 

[Failed Unit]

To me there are 2x possibilities.

1. Northern to get rid of the 319 varieties if possible.
2. C2C which could release 357s for great northern and in turn 700s for anyone. I know we will get why should great northern get old trains but the are much better from the customer point of view then the 700s.

It sounds like 2x 720 =3x 387 so that wouldn’t work unless the were reseated to a standard that the could run them to Kings Lynn.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I would like to see some of the shoulder peak services into Liverpool Street in the morning, and out in the evening, bolstered to 10 cars, as commuting is more flexible than ever before. In fact ideally I would like to see the whole service between Cambridge and Liverpool Street as 10 cars, all day bar the extremities, 7 days a week. No more paths, no more drivers, but a lot more capacity.


Morning service Cambridge to Liverpool Street

The current service from Cambridge to Liverpool Street in the mornings seems to consistently be:

0448, 0518, 0545, 0615 - all 5 car
0618, 0645, 0648, 0715, 0718, 0745 - all 10 car
0748, 0809, 0818, 0848, 0918 - all 5 car
0959, 1018 - both 10 car (having formed from earlier return 10 car workings)

The 0748 (2H13) being a 5 car is particularly problematic, as not only does it start back at Ely, it also stops all stations to Broxbourne, is full and standing from Bishops Stortford, and very cosy to Tottenham Hale. Timetabled arrival at Liverpool Street is 0916, so it's still a popular peak train for commuters or those with 10am meetings. The grumbling of those boarding at places like Roydon is palpable!

The 0809 (1H91) runs almost as a relief for the 0748, arriving at 0931, omitting Shelford, Gt Chesterford, Harlow Mill, Harlow Town and Roydon but adding Waltham Cross.


Evening service Liverpool Street to Cambridge

1554, 1624, 1653 - all 5 car
1708, 1723, 1738, 1753, 1808 - all 10 car; the 1708 and 1808 split at Cambridge and go forward to Ely.
1823, 1837, 1853, 1908 and the rest of the night - all 5 car

I've often taken the 1624 and the 1653 stopper (2H46) which, being 5 car are always uncomfortably full by Tottenham. And 1823 and 1837 are still peak commuter times!

I'm not aware of any double stacking on the platforms at Liverpool Street that would preclude an all-day 10 car service? The ASDO handles the short platforms up the line. Is platform space at Ely P3 an issue? The evening Elys are 10 car but split at Cambridge anyway.

Have I missed any stations that cannot be served by a 10 car in one direction or other? Even northbound at Shelford, 10 cars stop with the front four off the platform and do not foul the crossing.

GA have done a brilliant job in introducing new trains and running them utterly reliably, and the passenger numbers have grown accordingly. Cambridge South will surely drive further growth. I am sure I am probably missing something? Daytime maintenance cycles, deployment to Stansted, platform space, what would be the barrier?

Deploying spare units that are sitting around with no new paths needed would seem like an easy win and a PR opportunity for our PR-hungry Minister.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

what would be the barrier?

My experience is more with the Southend line, but I think it's just always been that way, trains get shortened when the morning peak ends, and re-extended for the evening peak, and several getting re-shortened after it ends.

 

[Magdalia]

Have I missed any stations that cannot be served by a 10 car in one direction or other?

Waterbeach?

In fact ideally I would like to see the whole service between Cambridge and Liverpool Street as 10 cars, all day bar the extremities, 7 days a week. No more paths, no more drivers, but a lot more capacity.

I'd agree. I'm very careful to choose the 10 car trains, and I'm delighted that the 0959 is now 10 cars!

I'm not sure, but I suspect that the main constraint is carriage siding space, especially at Cambridge.

 

[Farigiraf]

Waterbeach?

Will the new station fit 10 cars?
If so, then any 10-car GA Ely extras could just skip Waterbeach until the station's relocated. There are only about 2,000 annual journeys from Waterbeach to WAML stations anyway.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Yes, true, the current Waterbeach would be an issue (as well as potentially Ely P3). I'd solve this with everything south of Cambridge being 10-car, dividing or joining if necessary at Cambridge for the handful of Ely services.

The 0650 ex-Ely (1H87) does start as a 5-car and gains coaches at Cambridge in the morning, and the 1708 and 1808 (1H82 and 1H86) ex-LST both drop a unit at Cambridge, so it can be done. All other Ely services now are 5 car throughout.

1H87 originates in P3, and although there's a Norwich to Liverpool in the station between 0643-0648, it's four car and uses P1 rather than P3 so the whole length of P3 is theoretically available if 1H87 was 10-car.

At Ely 1H82 and 1H86 terminate in P1 which is easily long enough for 10 cars, before returning in service to Liverpool St.

I'd agree. I'm very careful to choose the 10 car trains, and I'm delighted that the 0959 is now 10 cars!

The first train on which a Network Railcard is valid, I expect that was a busy one!

 

[saismee]

I'd suggest to anyone who wants their service strengthened to 10-car that they should fill out a "we're all ears" survey for a few of their journeys and complain about crowding. I would assume that a good few of these would highlight problematic services. A lot of services were lengthened in the last timetable change, so I don't see why it couldn't continue.

 

[dk1]

Will the new station fit 10 cars?
If so, then any 10-car GA Ely extras could just skip Waterbeach until the station's relocated. There are only about 2,000 annual journeys from Waterbeach to WAML stations anyway.

From what I remember all work was done and ASDO set up to call at Waterbeach with 10-car stop boards erected then this was all abandoned when the Lynn services got binned.

 

[Essex Express]

Cover Stansted Express with class 720 that are converted to suit the Airport more luggage spaces and revised seating. There are 9 all day diagrams on Stansted Express so converting 20 units 18 in services two for exams. All other West anglia services are class 720 This would mean the whole of West Anglia is class 720 meaning drivers only have one type of traction to learn.
All c2c services are all class 720 again only one traction type to learn. East Ham depot is a one traction type depot.
GEML All Norwich to Liverpool Street plus the Ipswich to Liverpool Street semi fast are class 745 if there are still spare class 745 then can cover Clacton-on-Sea to Liverpool Street diagram this will free up 3 class 755 units currently covering one Norwich to Liverpool Street diagram. They can be used on 2 on the Colchester to Walton and one on the Manningtree to Harwich branch.
Class 357 the batch of 28 Angal Trains have a refresh to be used on Clacton to London diagrams. The 46 poterbrook units to be used as peak hour only units covering Liverpool Street to Southend Vic and towards Chelmsford, Witham and Colchester. Be maintained at Ilford Depot with Clacton depot doing some exams on the class 357. With the remaining class 720 covering all off peak Southend Victoria to Liverpool Street and all Braintree to Liverpool Street.

 

[dk1]

Cover Stansted Express with class 720 that are converted to suit the Airport more luggage spaces and revised seating. There are 9 all day diagrams on Stansted Express so converting 20 units 18 in services two for exams. All other West anglia services are class 720 This would mean the whole of West Anglia is class 720 meaning drivers only have one type of traction to learn.
All c2c services are all class 720 again only one traction type to learn. East Ham depot is a one traction type depot.
GEML All Norwich to Liverpool Street plus the Ipswich to Liverpool Street semi fast are class 745 if there are still spare class 745 then can cover Clacton-on-Sea to Liverpool Street diagram this will free up 3 class 755 units currently covering one Norwich to Liverpool Street diagram. They can be used on 2 on the Colchester to Walton and one on the Manningtree to Harwich branch.
Class 357 the batch of 28 Angal Trains have a refresh to be used on Clacton to London diagrams. The 46 poterbrook units to be used as peak hour only units covering Liverpool Street to Southend Vic and towards Chelmsford, Witham and Colchester. Be maintained at Ilford Depot with Clacton depot doing some exams on the class 357. With the remaining class 720 covering all off peak Southend Victoria to Liverpool Street and all Braintree to Liverpool Street.

I agree with most of this as makes total sense. Only thing that doesn’t is the expensive cost of training drivers unnecessarily on additional traction such as 357s on the GEML.

 

[Magdalia]

Cover Stansted Express with class 720 that are converted to suit the Airport more luggage spaces and revised seating.

This isn't going to happen, and here's why:

the cash cow that is Stansted Airport.

Liverpool Street-Stansted Airport is the biggest station pair on the network for journeys where one station is outside London, and the fourth biggest overall, behind only 3 Elizabeth Line station pairs. The Stansted Express generates about a quarter of all Greater Anglia revenue.

The class 745 is a train designed for the Stansted Express: Greater Anglia is not going to move them to a route where they generate much less revenue, especially if it also involves an expensive reconfiguration of class 720s that are still almost new.

 

[dk1]

This isn't going to happen, and here's why:


Liverpool Street-Stansted Airport is the biggest station pair on the network for journeys where one station is outside London, and the fourth biggest overall, behind only 3 Elizabeth Line station pairs. The Stansted Express generates about a quarter of all Greater Anglia revenue.

The class 745 is a train designed for the Stansted Express: Greater Anglia is not going to move them to a route where they generate much less revenue, especially if it also involves an expensive reconfiguration of class 720s that are still almost new.

Oh yes I totally agree. The reason the DfT happily agreed to return to a full 4tph 7 days a week pre-pandemic frequency. Just makes so much sense operationally to keep the Stadlers on the East side.

 

[saismee]

This isn't going to happen, and here's why:


Liverpool Street-Stansted Airport is the biggest station pair on the network for journeys where one station is outside London, and the fourth biggest overall, behind only 3 Elizabeth Line station pairs. The Stansted Express generates about a quarter of all Greater Anglia revenue.

The class 745 is a train designed for the Stansted Express: Greater Anglia is not going to move them to a route where they generate much less revenue, especially if it also involves an expensive reconfiguration of class 720s that are still almost new.

Running triple-traction and 745/1s on the GE side is costing a lot in penalties due to the reduced seating and lack of first class. I'm sure more people would be tempted into first class if they were actually guaranteed it, as there's a lot of disappointment when it never shows up day after day. And of course as dk1 mentioned, the operational cost savings would be noticeable.

 

[dk1]

Running triple-traction and 745/1s on the GE side is costing a lot in penalties due to the reduced seating and lack of first class. I'm sure more people would be tempted into first class if they were actually guaranteed it, as there's a lot of disappointment when it never shows up day after day. And of course as dk1 mentioned, the operational cost savings would be noticeable.

The plan is that 1st class will be retrofitted to all 745/1s but no cafe bar. I don’t have the timescale however.

 

[saismee]

The plan is that 1st class will be retrofitted to all 745/1s but no cafe bar. I don’t have the timescale however.

What about 745s on London to Ipswich services?

 

[dk1]

What about 745s on London to Ipswich services?

I don’t understand what you mean. 745/1s will have 1st class regardless of route used upon.

 

[saismee]

I don’t understand what you mean. 745/1s will have 1st class regardless of route used upon.

Sorry, I mean the potential for 745s to cover the stopper LST <> IPS services, replacing some 720s.

 

[dk1]

Sorry, I mean the potential for 745s to cover the stopper LST <> IPS services, replacing some 720s.

Yes mate, anything GEML is perfect.

 

[Shwam3]

At Ely 1H82 and 1H86 terminate in P1 which is easily long enough for 10 cars

Platform 1 is the only platform at Ely prohibited to 10 car 720s, although the platform face is plenty long enough the signals aren't far enough apart.

Waterbeach is prohibited to 10 car 720s calling until the resignalling is completed because of level crossing issues.

 

[brad465]

If 20 units are spare , send them to EMR to replace the 360's ( make then 2+2 seating throughout).

The irony of this being the 720s would be replacing 360s for the second time in their life.

Would the 2x5-car work at St.Pancras with 24.2m vehicles?

It must be borderline as 810s are 24m vehicles. A 10-car 720 would be 2m longer than a 10-car 810, which could well be the difference between will fit/won't fit.

 

[bramling]

Cover Stansted Express with class 720 that are converted to suit the Airport more luggage spaces and revised seating. There are 9 all day diagrams on Stansted Express so converting 20 units 18 in services two for exams. All other West anglia services are class 720 This would mean the whole of West Anglia is class 720 meaning drivers only have one type of traction to learn.
All c2c services are all class 720 again only one traction type to learn. East Ham depot is a one traction type depot.
GEML All Norwich to Liverpool Street plus the Ipswich to Liverpool Street semi fast are class 745 if there are still spare class 745 then can cover Clacton-on-Sea to Liverpool Street diagram this will free up 3 class 755 units currently covering one Norwich to Liverpool Street diagram. They can be used on 2 on the Colchester to Walton and one on the Manningtree to Harwich branch.
Class 357 the batch of 28 Angal Trains have a refresh to be used on Clacton to London diagrams. The 46 poterbrook units to be used as peak hour only units covering Liverpool Street to Southend Vic and towards Chelmsford, Witham and Colchester. Be maintained at Ilford Depot with Clacton depot doing some exams on the class 357. With the remaining class 720 covering all off peak Southend Victoria to Liverpool Street and all Braintree to Liverpool Street.

Is 5/720 appropriate for many LTS services? We would again run into the issue of 5 cars being too short and 10 being too much. 160 metres does seem to be a sweet spot for many services in the London / SE area now.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

It must be borderline as 810s are 24m vehicles. A 10-car 720 would be 2m longer than a 10-car 810, which could well be the difference between will fit/won't fit.

The sectional appendix lists the EMR Platforms St Pancras at 260 metres long.
Therefore a 10 car 720 at 244m would easily fit, with space to split if so wanted.

The 810s have space enough to split in the platform and depart as separate trains, it's not just about the length as a 10 car.

 

[saismee]

Is 5/720 appropriate for many LTS services? We would again run into the issue of 5 cars being too short and 10 being too much. 160 metres does seem to be a sweet spot for many services in the London / SE area now.

Seems to be a sweet spot across most of the country! Why on earth were 5x24m chosen? I think we dodged a bullet with the 720/1s not being 10-car