Northern services post TPU & new rolling stock

[quantinghome]

Interesting detail from Northern's FAQ page on their new rolling stock programme:

Will we need to make any changes to infrastructure, for example to engineering TrainCare Centres?​

Yes, there will be some changes. These will include stabling, charging infrastructure and other changes associated with the new technology the trains bring. We will have more detail on these once the manufacturer(s) of the trains is agreed There is likely to be investment across our main Train Care Centres as well as at our servicing and stabling locations.
The TransPennine Route Upgrade is investing around £100million in a new rail depot in Shipley. Shipley depot will house our fleet of electric trains for the TransPennine Route upgrade.

This suggests that some of the Airedale services will be integrated with the local Transpennine services. Either that or trains will run out of service from Shipley depot to Leeds, which sounds wasteful.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Either that or trains will run out of service from Shipley depot to Leeds, which sounds wasteful.

It's not exactly a long distance, ~12 miles is a relatively short ECS compared to several others across Northern's network (e.g. a pair of 769s are diagrammed to run from Allerton to Manchester Victoria, which is over 35 miles)

 

[3RDGEN]

The Leeds - Huddersfield stopping service is already run by Northern and once TRU is completed from Huddersfield to York both of those services should go over to EMU's from Northern. The current Phase 1 new build tender includes 12 EMU's for these local services although Northern could swap fleets around with 331's from the West side released to the East side so there's only the 331 and 333 fleets on the East side for example.

 

[bluenoxid]

Also note that house could mean a few things. It is possible that many of trains are stabled in other places as they don’t need to visit their home depot every night.

 

[Farigiraf]

This suggests that some of the Airedale services will be integrated with the local Transpennine services. Either that or trains will run out of service from Shipley depot to Leeds, which sounds wasteful.

Although a lot of the proposals regarding Bradford Crossrail so far have been fairly unworkable, if the above is true then it may be worth considering. Skipton/Ikley to Huddersfield/Dewsbury via Bradford services would be quite good for regional connectivity and would relieve some pressure on Leeds station and the routes into it, but as the situation is currently, it wouldn't really be worth the cost of a commuter rail tunnel under Bradford. However, if most of the Weaver Network EMU fleet will be stored at Shipley anyway then I could see it being moved up the priority list.

 

[Halish Railway]

The current Phase 1 new build tender includes 12 EMU's for these local services although Northern could swap fleets around with 331's from the West side released to the East side so there's only the 331 and 333 fleets on the East side for example.

I would imagine that the local stopping services on the TRU route would require the level boarding that the new trains would provide to reliably fit in between faster services.

 

[quantinghome]

Although a lot of the proposals regarding Bradford Crossrail so far have been fairly unworkable, if the above is true then it may be worth considering. Skipton/Ikley to Huddersfield/Dewsbury via Bradford services would be quite good for regional connectivity and would relieve some pressure on Leeds station and the routes into it, but as the situation is currently, it wouldn't really be worth the cost of a commuter rail tunnel under Bradford. However, if most of the Weaver Network EMU fleet will be stored at Shipley anyway then I could see it being moved up the priority list.

I doubt it. A conveniently located depot doesn't add much to the case for Bradford Crossrail (which is extremely weak). Besides, even if there was a direct service using a Bradford Crossrail route, it would still give no quicker journey between Skipton/Ilkley and Huddersfield/Dewsbury than going via Leeds. The only routes which would see a time saving would be Skipton/Ilkley to Halifax, the Calder Valley and Pudsey/Bramley.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Interesting detail from Northern's FAQ page on their new rolling stock programme:

View attachment 207634

This suggests that some of the Airedale services will be integrated with the local Transpennine services. Either that or trains will run out of service from Shipley depot to Leeds, which sounds wasteful.

It's just a poorly-worded statement. Shipley depot is necessary primarily because Neville Hill will be cut off for long periods, but as the TP electrification will mean a larger electric fleet, it's more economical to build a new permanent depot for additional electric sets. There's unlikely to be any through running from Airedale to Huddersfield. Shipley certainly will not house the electric or bi-mode units used on TPE fasts, which is what I expect most people think of when they read about "New trains for the Trans-Pennine Route Upgrade".
Trains already run out of service from Neville Hill to Leeds, and while that's a shorter distance than Shipley to Leeds it is over a very congested bit of railway.

As others have said, units won't need to return to their home depot every night. Some will stable at the new Hillhouse sidings near Huddersfield for example.

 

[quantinghome]

It's just a poorly-worded statement. Shipley depot is necessary primarily because Neville Hill will be cut off for long periods, but as the TP electrification will mean a larger electric fleet, it's more economical to build a new permanent depot for additional electric sets. There's unlikely to be any through running from Airedale to Huddersfield. Shipley certainly will not house the electric or bi-mode units used on TPE fasts, which is what I expect most people think of when they read about "New trains for the Trans-Pennine Route Upgrade".
Trains already run out of service from Neville Hill to Leeds, and while that's a shorter distance than Shipley to Leeds it is over a very congested bit of railway.

As others have said, units won't need to return to their home depot every night. Some will stable at the new Hillhouse sidings near Huddersfield for example.

Yes, it's a good point - the units will only be heading out in the early morning and returning in the evening. There has been some historical murmuring about more through services at Leeds from the Airedale line through to York/Selby, but there's nothing really to suggest that from the FAQ.

Northern are certainly maxxing out the available space at Shipley which as a geotechnical engineer I strongly approve of!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yes, it's a good point - the units will only be heading out in the early morning and returning in the evening. There has been some historical murmuring about more through services at Leeds from the Airedale line through to York/Selby, but there's nothing really to suggest that from the FAQ.

Northern are certainly maxxing out the available space at Shipley which as a geotechnical engineer I strongly approve of!

With the drop in freight movements via the Settle & Carlisle, there should be plenty of paths available for ECS movements from Shipley depot. As for the possibility of through running towards York, the Doncasters (or Huddersfields once the wires are up) would be a much more suitable candidate. Services from the "triangle" tend to use the Wellington bays at Leeds which are relatively self-contained, and threading them across the throat to run to York would be an extra operational constraint that doesn't need to be introduced. Unless there's a huge amount of untapped demand for Ilkley to York journeys, it simply isn't worth the trouble.