GTR Summer Holiday Cancellations

[Chriso]

Great (cost cutting) British Railways coming soon . Sigh another Gov ****show

 

[Mattplans]

The FOI req referred to in post 181 has now been responded to: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/data_leading_to_thameslink_reduc#incoming-3482543

An interesting thing to note (that may be worthy of it's own thread) is that Southern will be running an overnight Gatwick Express service, I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere yet. Like Stansted Express overnight trial as well.
And the school holiday timetable appears to be a permanent thing. So that means this October, Next Feb, and Next March and probably for the foreseeable future.

• GTR recently introduced a school holiday 'demand led' timetable for some selected Southern routes building on a similar version of a Friday 'weekday light' timetable.
• This started in October 2025, continued in February 2026, and is planned for Easter 2026 and May 2026.
• We propose to extend this principle to further routes throughout our brands where appropriate throughout the year starting in Summer 2026.
• We continue to develop our holiday period 'demand-led' approach to timetable planning, creating bespoke timetables aligning our provision through assessing our high frequency routes which are duplicated by other GTR or other operators' services either in full or part.
• This proposal prioritises routes that generate high off-peak leisure demand whilst reducing some peak and some late morning/midday/early afternoon off-peak routes where
• historic demand levels allow or are duplicated.

• We considered operating a 'Saturday' level service [for the school holiday weekday timetable] however the provision is too low against demand to cope and additional early morning key worker trains would be required.
• Looking forward, we are also working on bespoke Friday timetables due to [redacted]. This is likely to start from May 2027 but further considerations need in this area such as school and college services.

generally the service returns in the peak but there are some exemptions:

1C80 1654 London Kings Cross to Cambridge - will not operate throughout.

 

[bramling]

The FOI req referred to in post 181 has now been responded to: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/data_leading_to_thameslink_reduc#incoming-3482543

An interesting thing to note (that may be worthy of it's own thread) is that Southern will be running an overnight Gatwick Express service, I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere yet. Like Stansted Express overnight trial as well.View attachment 207646
And the school holiday timetable appears to be a permanent thing. So that means this October, Next Feb, and Next March and probably for the foreseeable future.



generally the service returns in the peak but there are some exemptions:

1C80 1654 London Kings Cross to Cambridge - will not operate throughout.
View attachment 207647

A lot of redactions, so much for transparency especially given GTR is now a public institution.

Especially with the bit about Fridays, I would be absolutely livid if I’d purchased an annual season ticket and then found a whole load of services have now been amended or deleted, which of course all sits on top of the shambolic performance day after day.

Another example of the Covid response legacy.

 

[TrenHotel]

If GTR is such a money pit, why does it continue to exist as a single entity? Why isn't it broken up?

 

[OneOfThe48]

An interesting thing to note (that may be worthy of it's own thread) is that Southern will be running an overnight Gatwick Express service, I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere yet. Like Stansted Express overnight trial as well.

Gatwick Express is running some extra overnight Gatwick Express services over the summer, no extra Southern trains on that route though

They are mentioned on their website page on these changes

To make it easier for holiday makers to travel to and from the airport, on Saturdays and Mondays between Saturday 18 July and Monday 7 September, there will be additional early morning Gatwick Express services between London Victoria and Gatwick Airport. These will depart London Victoria at 03:40 and depart Gatwick Airport at 04:35.

https://www.gatwickexpress.com/service-updates/timetables/latest-on-our-rail-service

On the data they did share - my main takeaway is how lightly used the services to Rainham are. Expected them to be busier with all the reaction they’ve had, not to have a few dozen to a hundred people for much of the route on a train that can take a thousand

 

[Kite159]

Good news, you can now pay over the odds to travel to Gatwick overnight!

I guess that might reduce the numbers travelling on the 02:14 Bedford to Three Bridges service

 

[Vexed]

Good news, you can now pay over the odds to travel to Gatwick overnight!

I guess that might reduce the numbers travelling on the 02:14 Bedford to Three Bridges service

So GTR say they are removing duplicated services over summer due to lower demand but will run extra night services on days of the week there is already a Thameslink service from London? If there's a case for strengthening overnight services I'm all for it but it seems like mixed messaging!

Hopefully a skeleton service from St Pancras high level to Luton/Bedford on Saturday nights when Thameslink doesn't run will be considered as well. The south side gets an hourly Southern service from Victoria through early Sunday morning but nothing on the north side of the core until 0634. I don't know what the engineering access rules are so it might need to go from West Hampstead Thameslink but with the night tube running that's not the end of the world.

 

[OneOfThe48]

So GTR say they are removing duplicated services over summer due to lower demand but will run extra night services on days of the week there is already a Thameslink service from London? If there's a case for strengthening overnight services I'm all for it but it seems like mixed messaging!

Maybe they think they’ll make more money by running them?

Assume all they’ll do on the Rainham route is just lose less money - that loading data looks sparse

 

[wls1]

Thameslink have made a point of stating that alternative services are available from Dartford - London and London - Luton for the cuts to Rainham but have failed to mention the Medway - Dartford/Abbey Wood connections of which they provide the only direct service. Weekdays there are alternatives changing at Gravesend and Dartford however with high speed largely hourly in the middle of the day and evenings on Saturdays this will certainly prove problematic

 

[bramling]

Maybe they think they’ll make more money by running them?

Assume all they’ll do on the Rainham route is just lose less money - that loading data looks sparse

Wonder how long Luton-Rainham will survive now. It only came about by accident in the first place, and if the view now seems to be that the capacity isn’t needed north of the river (off-peak at least) then the whole thing seems to serve little purpose. Likewise at some point they will have to deal with the issue of the train crew depot that has no services - Ashford.

 

[Mattplans]

Wonder how long Luton-Rainham will survive now. It only came about by accident in the first place, and if the view now seems to be that the capacity isn’t needed north of the river (off-peak at least) then the whole thing seems to serve little purpose.

I'd imagine Southeastern's fleet situation is one of the determining factors in keeping it going. Networkers faulting/breaking down very regularly nowadays. There's no way they'd be able to handle it at the moment.

 

[whoosh]

A lot of redactions, so much for transparency especially given GTR is now a public institution.

Especially with the bit about Fridays, I would be absolutely livid if I’d purchased an annual season ticket and then found a whole load of services have now been amended or deleted, which of course all sits on top of the shambolic performance day after day.

Another example of the Covid response legacy.

It's due to "lower passenger demand" which is bizarrely the only part not redacted about Fridays in Appendix E !
They are looking at a Saturday service for Fridays but may still need to accomodate school and college traffic, as well as making sure trains start as early as other weekdays.

 

[yorksrob]

Wonder how long Luton-Rainham will survive now. It only came about by accident in the first place, and if the view now seems to be that the capacity isn’t needed north of the river (off-peak at least) then the whole thing seems to serve little purpose. Likewise at some point they will have to deal with the issue of the train crew depot that has no services - Ashford.

They don't strike me as a natural pair TBH !

 

[Horizon22]

They don't strike me as a natural pair TBH !

Effectively 3 services bolted on together and a fudge since in the mid 2010s it was realised there was no more capacity through Windmill Bridge Junction / East Croydon to send more Thameslink services.

 

[yorksrob]

Effectively 3 services bolted on together and a fudge since in the mid 2010s it was realised there was no more capacity through Windmill Bridge Junction / East Croydon to send more Thameslink services.

Indeed. Maybe Maidstone might have been a better option, but Maidstoners are enjoying their service to London Bridge, Waterloo E and Charing Cross.

 

[devon_belle]

From a passenger point of view, if you turn up for your usual train and it isn't there because that week has been deemed "quiet" in advance by the train company, that is another way in which the railway is unreliable. I hope this ridiculous policy is quickly reversed.

 

[TrenHotel]

It's due to "lower passenger demand" which is bizarrely the only part not redacted about Fridays in Appendix E !
They are looking at a Saturday service for Fridays but may still need to accomodate school and college traffic, as well as making sure trains start as early as other weekdays.

The Friday plan has been scrapped: https://greenwichwire.co.uk/2026/07/15/thameslink-friday-train-services-cut-abandon/

However, GTR told The Greenwich Wire that the plan to cut Friday trains had been scrapped. “This proposal is off the table and is not being considered,” a spokesperson said.

 

[Watershed]

The Friday plan has been scrapped: https://greenwichwire.co.uk/2026/07/15/thameslink-friday-train-services-cut-abandon/

For now. Who's to say the cuts won't be reinstated if the Treasury cuts the DfT's budget?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Wonder how long Luton-Rainham will survive now. It only came about by accident in the first place, and if the view now seems to be that the capacity isn’t needed north of the river (off-peak at least) then the whole thing seems to serve little purpose. Likewise at some point they will have to deal with the issue of the train crew depot that has no services - Ashford.

I reckon Luton-Rainham will be gone by 2030 or whenever SE has enough trains then it’ll revert back to its old pre 2018 pattern I imagine

It was dead on arrival anyway, the Liz Line is faster to Farringdon than Thameslink is

I also felt that they picked the wrong Dartford route to send a Thameslink service, I think the Sidcup line would have been better.

 

[bramling]

The Friday plan has been scrapped: https://greenwichwire.co.uk/2026/07/15/thameslink-friday-train-services-cut-abandon/

Good. One of the most ridiculous ideas we have seen. The government should not be encouraging people to stay at home on Fridays.

 

[bicbasher]

I note that two of the peak services via Forest Hill to and from London Bridge have been kept.

0803 from Norwood Junction to London Bridge (3tph between Sydenham and London Bridge from 0800-0900).
1810 from London Bridge to Sutton.

 

[TrenHotel]

I reckon Luton-Rainham will be gone by 2030 or whenever SE has enough trains then it’ll revert back to its old pre 2018 pattern I imagine

It was dead on arrival anyway, the Liz Line is faster to Farringdon than Thameslink is

I also felt that they picked the wrong Dartford route to send a Thameslink service, I think the Sidcup line would have been better.

Hopefully there'll be a decent rail devolution settlement for London by then so Westminster will stop meddling in the capital's metro services.

 

[wls1]

What would the likelihood of restoring thameslink to Beckenham Junction/Kent House peak hours and Orpington all day? Could that serve as a replacement?

 

[Mattplans]

I reckon Luton-Rainham will be gone by 2030 or whenever SE has enough trains

At least the service has freed up units for other metro work. If there are to be changes to drum up some demand, I'm sure there would be some value in sending it via Bexleyheath (lots of new homes going up and existing demand to TL) or Sidcup. Not sure what I'd take from them to send via Greenwich instead though!

I might also consider curtailing it to Dartford, I think that can roughly work out to the same resources used. Of course it would reduce efficiency with drivers being based at Gilingham, but a lot better than Ashford and Sevenoaks that's for sure

What would the likelihood of restoring thameslink to Beckenham Junction/Kent House peak hours and Orpington all day? Could that serve as a replacement?

It doesn't look hopeful for Catford (although I'd love to see the loading data for Catford routes!). I've seen elsewhere on the forum that they are only lightly loaded during off-peak (conversely some of the busiest in the peaks, which is interesting), so in the climate of penny pinching and incessant reductions in services I don't know if it could be justified.

GOING to split into what can be done to stimulate demand on GTR when we see other route's loading data.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I note that two of the peak services via Forest Hill to and from London Bridge have been kept.

0803 from Norwood Junction to London Bridge (3tph between Sydenham and London Bridge from 0800-0900).
1810 from London Bridge to Sutton.

According to RTT all the the Q path 9Rxx are showing as running Mon/Tues next week now maybe to cover the fact the schools dont go on holidays until 23rd July

 

[London Trains]

Is it just me or do those passenger figures for the Luton to Rainham services not seem particularly low as some people are making out - obviously most off peak trains are not going to be packed, and they aren't going to be busy at the Rainham end because of the painfully slow journey times, but closer to London they are fairly busy based on those numbers.

It just sounds like hyperbole from people trying to justify the nonsensical frequency cut.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Is it just me or do those passenger figures for the Luton to Rainham services not seem particularly low as some people are making out - obviously most off peak trains are not going to be packed, and they aren't going to be busy at the Rainham end because of the painfully slow journey times, but closer to London they are fairly busy based on those numbers.

It just sounds like hyperbole from people trying to justify the nonsensical frequency cut.

You'd find the same on several of the Thameslink routes largely fresh air at the extremities but firmly in the orange to red loadings when nearer to London. Thats largely the case on most public transport routes.

Reading through the info provided under the Freedom of Information response above surely all the train operators had been tasked to undertake the same exercise yet only GTR has instigated any reductions.

 

[Mattplans]

Reading through the info provided under the Freedom of Information response above surely all the train operators had been tasked to undertake the same exercise yet only GTR has instigated any reductions.

This has confused me as well. Especially since SE is increasing their metro services (including via Greenwich) in the next timetable. Why is there money for SE but not TL? (Or are SE reductions over the horizon?)

 

[bramling]

You'd find the same on several of the Thameslink routes largely fresh air at the extremities but firmly in the orange to red loadings when nearer to London. Thats largely the case on most public transport routes.

Cambridge and Peterborough TL services do pick up decent loads at most of the stations north of Stevenage, as well as some level of traffic towards Peterborough and (especially) Cambridge. Not full by any means, but definitely not fresh air.

Reading through the info provided under the Freedom of Information response above surely all the train operators had been tasked to undertake the same exercise yet only GTR has instigated any reductions.

Also notable that GTR were the pioneers in offloading rolling stock - three complete fleets ditched virtually without replacement, and (IIRC) they were also one of the first to implement post-Covid timetable cuts. Seems to have been the nature of the management contract that has put GTR at the forefront of all this rotten stuff.

 

[London Trains]

You'd find the same on several of the Thameslink routes largely fresh air at the extremities but firmly in the orange to red loadings when nearer to London. Thats largely the case on most public transport routes.

Reading through the info provided under the Freedom of Information response above surely all the train operators had been tasked to undertake the same exercise yet only GTR has instigated any reductions.

Exactly, there's nothing surprising about services being lightly loaded at their outer extremities, particularly with Thameslink where there are quite a few routes which are painfully slow if used from their outer extremities and alternative, faster services exist (Rainham, Sevenoaks, Horsham etc.), but the important factor is that these services are busy when they get closer to London.

I really cannot understand why GTR are going backwards in terms of service provision whilst other operators are making improvements.