Why should I trust rail travel?

[rmHawk765]

Much better since Crystal Palace - Victoria went back to 4tph.

GN hasn't got the memo about this - look at the services out of Moorgate...

Gets overcrowded on weekends when they use 4-coach trains rather than 8- or 10-coaches.

Similar to the Watford Jn service if I remember correctly.

 

[Sonic1234]

Similar to the Watford Jn service if I remember correctly.

Are you referring to the Southern Croydon to Watford service? Always seems surprisingly popular, despite it being slow and the embarrassment of 1tph in London. I think there are quite a few long distance tickets and Advances routed that way.

I've had reason to travel a few times from South London to suburban North London and use GN. Often an unreliable Thameslink service badly connecting with 2 tph GN service.

 

[London Trains]

GN hasn't got the memo about this - look at the services out of Moorgate...

Similar to the Watford Jn service if I remember correctly.

Southern themselves aren't much better, Victoria to Epsom and Victoria to Sutton via Norbury are still at 2tph, half of their old service levels (and this has nothing to do with their shortage of units, as they would need precisely 0 extra units to restore the old service levels).

The Watford Junction to East Croydon (Clapham Junction on Sundays) service is only 5 coaches throughout the week, and is crying out to be extended to 8 coaches.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't generally find the railway to be too unreliable (perhaps I'm lucky ?) but I do tend to give myself plenty of padding timewise for long journeys.

What stops be being much of an advocate for rail travel these days is the extremely patchy value for money.

Too often value can only be found where it's convenient for the railway to provide it, rather than where and when I need to travel. The lack of passenger friendly, easy to use discounts as found in many continental countries is a constant running sore, particularly as the railway industry seems to want to make it more and more difficult to travel easily without planning everything months in advance.

Even if you do plan months in advance, for some flows such as Yorkshire to Norfolk, the fares are still lousy value anyway.

 

[rmHawk765]

Are you referring to the Southern Croydon to Watford service?

Yes, apologies for the ambiguity.

Southern themselves aren't much better, Victoria to Epsom and Victoria to Sutton via Norbury are still at 2tph, half of their old service levels (and this has nothing to do with their shortage of units, as they would need precisely 0 extra units to restore the old service levels).

Moorgate-Stevenage (via Hertford North) and Moorgate-Welwyn Garden City have basically gone back to the days of the 313s. Ok, fine, even I can say that's an exaggeration, but it really sucks how wasted the still rather new fleet has been. The service levels are worse and even the 717s do not cope with Hertford services at peak anymore (6tph instead of 8tph as 2019), and more relevant to this thread, Sunday evening Hertford trains are usually full and standing. Welwyn has always been less busy due to the presence of other services and the Tube but it's not exactly underutilised either. And in terms of unit utilisation, a whopping 9 out of 25 717s are used off-peak... I will have you know, the size of the order was intended to allow running a 4-10tph service to Hertford! Unfortunately it seems whatever bit of forward-thinking GTR managed to grasp on those few years ago has long gone.

I've had reason to travel a few times from South London to suburban North London and use GN. Often an unreliable Thameslink service badly connecting with 2 tph GN service.

Until the Dec 2025 ECML timetable, TL actually connected pretty nicely onto Moorgate services off-peak. Now, off-peak trains from Hertford sometimes arrive about a minute after a TL leaves...

 

[birchesgreen]

I have had similar experiences, most times that I have arranged to have a rail-based day out with non-railway friends it has collapsed in ruins. Very embarrassing!

Its strange but when i travel on my own i seldom have any issues with the railways but it always seems to be the opposite if i'm travelling with family or friends!

 

[yorksrob]

I remember embarking on a trip along the Settle & Carlisle with friends a few years ago. It happened to be the day that Eden Brows started slipping down the hillside.

 

[AndrewE]

Its strange but when i travel on my own i seldom have any issues with the railways but it always seems to be the opposite if i'm travelling with family or friends!

I remember embarking on a trip along the Settle & Carlisle with friends a few years ago. It happened to be the day that Eden Brows started slipping down the hillside.

Something similar for me too. Is it just Sod's law working?

For my Dad's 80th, maybe 85th, we arranged a circular tour with him, me and my 2 sons who travelled from Edinburgh and Peterborough for it, then: Bradford - Leeds - York - Edinburgh (DB&B at second son's house) then Edinburgh - Carlisle (S&C) Leeds - Bradford...

We were caught up in the York signalling centre lightning strike (?) and waited a couple of hours there, then apparently a replacement circuit board which had been helicoptered in from Newcastle was put in - and promptly went pop too! We judged the likely delay and one son and I shot off to the nearest supermarket and got a rucksack full of takeaway food and enough drink to go with it. We hovered on the station and I picked the train most likely to leave first and run through and we settled in as best as we could - 3 of them at a table and me across the gangway. After about a 4-hour delay the train did set off at about 6 or 7pm and we felt able to break into our supplies, as I felt that until then there was the risk it was going to be terminated and we would have to dash to another platform. Arrived Edinburgh too late to eat another meal but jumped into a taxi to get to our beds without further loss of time. Trip via the S&C worked without a hitch the next day, thank goodness. (And son had a big fridge full of uneaten dinner to keep his family going for the next few days!)

 

[swt_passenger]

I think it’s also worth noting that various attempts to run dedicated trains for cruise passengers right into the docks have never seemed to last long.

Maybe for long distance cruise passengers there should be something available like the CIV fares for Eurostar? But from the north it seems to me the most reliable way to travel would be via Euston, St Pancras or Kings Cross and Waterloo.

 

[Spamcan81]

Sadly I would never trust the rail network to go to airport to catch a plane!

Don't trust the road network either. Only needs one shunt or one broken down vehicle on the M25* and chaos ensues.
*Other major roads are available.

 

[Russel]

I do agree with the sentiment behind this thread, as a regular user of XC, Avanti and LNWR on the Trent Valley, it's getting harder to trust the railway with each passing week.

I was caught up in the disruption at Euston on Saturday night, the last train of the night back to Tamworth and Lichfield was cancelled and there was simply no information or interest from staff on the ground to help, it really felt like the railway had just washed their hands of anyone traveling to the Trent Valley local stations, this is a journey I do twice a month and things do go wrong, but this was the worst I've known it, it's really knocked my confidence in rail travel...

 

[81A]

Maybe I have been lucky, but I (and many non-enthusiast friends/family) view rail as a solid option. Sure, things can go wrong, but the number of pure rail travel disasters I have experienced is more or less equal to the number of road/air travel ones (when considering similar length journeys and adjusted for travel frequency). Rail also has the benefit of it being the companies responsibility not to leave people stranded+give compensation-in theory, and to be fair, usually in practice.

That said, since I am located such that most of my rail (and other long distance) travel is into London/Oxford/Birmingham and environs, road may be worse (and rail better) for me than other parts of the country...

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I do quite a lot of train travel, and while it's not uncommon for things to go wrong, I always get where I'm going eventually and for me, disruption is opportunity, it might mean a bit of rare track, time to get some more trains, or use stations I've not before.

And delay repay is a nice reward, especially on Northern where I can turn a £5 return into up to £70 worth of complementary tickets if delayed 2 hours.

 

[Russel]

I do quite a lot of train travel, and while it's not uncommon for things to go wrong, I always get where I'm going eventually and for me, disruption is opportunity, it might mean a bit of rare track, time to get some more trains, or use stations I've not before.

And delay repay is a nice reward, especially on Northern where I can turn a £5 return into up to £70 worth of complementary tickets if delayed 2 hours.

When you're just trying to get home from work and LNWR rip out the Trent Valley stops because a train is delayed, leaving a 2 hour gap in services, it get's boring very quickly...

 

[pokemonsuper9]

When you're just trying to get home from work and LNWR rip out the Trent Valley stops because a train is delayed, leaving a 2 hour gap in services, it get's boring very quickly...

Yes, I'm quite fortunate in that my commute is quite short, 2 trains per hour, and ticket acceptance is usually quickly arranged on local buses if there's a big issue (most often a points failiure) they think will take over 2 hours to fix.

Until there's a yellow weather warning and Northern cancel half the trains!

 

[Russel]

Yes, I'm quite fortunate in that my commute is quite short, 2 trains per hour, and ticket acceptance is usually quickly arranged on local buses if there's a big issue (most often a points failiure) they think will take over 2 hours to fix.

Until there's a yellow weather warning and Northern cancel half the trains!

I'm also able to get a bus, but it goes from being a 6 minute train journey to a 1hr 15m bus ride, which, for example last Thursday, in 33 degree heat, is unpleasant to put it mildly.

 

[London Trains]

Moorgate-Stevenage (via Hertford North) and Moorgate-Welwyn Garden City have basically gone back to the days of the 313s. Ok, fine, even I can say that's an exaggeration, but it really sucks how wasted the still rather new fleet has been. The service levels are worse and even the 717s do not cope with Hertford services at peak anymore (6tph instead of 8tph as 2019), and more relevant to this thread, Sunday evening Hertford trains are usually full and standing. Welwyn has always been less busy due to the presence of other services and the Tube but it's not exactly underutilised either. And in terms of unit utilisation, a whopping 9 out of 25 717s are used off-peak... I will have you know, the size of the order was intended to allow running a 4-10tph service to Hertford! Unfortunately it seems whatever bit of forward-thinking GTR managed to grasp on those few years ago has long gone.

It is very frustrating and slightly confusing that GTR (and SWR) are still stuck with such low service levels nowadays, particularly when most other operators are nearly back to their pre-Covid service levels, or are seeing significant improvements to services this December* such as Southeastern.

And before anyone throws out the comment about there being less commuters now, firstly that does not explain why off-peak frequencies have been dropped (when leisure travel has actually gone up since Covid), and secondly I would question how true this is anymore, as commuter demand doesn't seem to be too far off pre-Covid levels now in my experience (excluding Fridays where there has been a significant drop off).

*I know off-peak Hertford loop services are being doubled to 4tph from December, but that seems to be a case of robbing services from one line in order to improve another, with the Luton to Rainham services being cut back to Kentish Town simultaneously.

 

[Sonic1234]

It is very frustrating and slightly confusing that GTR (and SWR) are still stuck with such low service levels nowadays, particularly when most other operators are nearly back to their pre-Covid service levels, or are seeing significant improvements to services this December* such as Southeastern.

It's getting where I'm struggling to remember what the pre-Covid service was like, as will a lot of people. You get a lot of people who are near NR stations in London who get a bus to a Tube station for a more frequent service. In metro areas, frequency is the most important thing. LO with a 5-car 4tph (or higher) service is preferable to SWR with a 10-car 2tph service (can't stand the seating on LO myself though, and TfL gatelines).

Am I right in thinking the minor stations between Twickenham and Waterloo used to get 4 tph?

Maybe the thinking is that enough people use the current services and the marginal revenue isn't worth it?

 

[Krokodil]

but those in charge need forcing to actually experience what they preside over.

That happened in the north. Someone from the DfT asked what were all these "Pacer" trains people were complaining about. So the then MD of Northern invited him to tske a trip on a peak stopper between Liverpool and Manchester. The bloke was a gibbering wreck by the time that he arrived at Oxford Road.

 

[azOOOOOma]

I tend to drive if I gave a flight or something to catch and go the night before. I’ll sometimes use coaches, especially within Scotland. Having worked on trains and seen how often things go very wrong and people are stuck on stranded trains for several hours in baking hot sun has not made me trust rail travel any more, even though I get it free or super cheap!

 

[Falcon1200]

Having worked for the railway my natural instinct is to defend it, but that can be difficult! The service is so unpredictable.

For example, last Friday 10th July I travelled from Paddington to Oxford. The timetable was in chaos, with up to half the service cancelled and those trains which did run delayed. This did mean that having left Waterloo on the Bakerloo Line at 1305 I was still able to catch the 1252 Paddington-Worcester Foregate Street, which started 34 minutes late and arrived at Oxford 43 minutes late where it terminated, leaving passengers to wait until 1523 for the next train towards Worcester.

Yet on Saturday 11th July I travelled from Oxford to Alton and back for the Mid-Hants Diesel Gala and of the 9 trains I used just 1 was delayed; To my surprise (and pleasure) 1W03 1650 Paddington-Hereford ran spot on time, at least as far as Evesham...

This level of unreliability is a major issue for the railway, IMHO.

 

[Shrop]

Having worked for the railway my natural instinct is to defend it, but that can be difficult! The service is so unpredictable.

For example, last Friday 10th July I travelled from Paddington to Oxford. The timetable was in chaos, with up to half the service cancelled and those trains which did run delayed. This did mean that having left Waterloo on the Bakerloo Line at 1305 I was still able to catch the 1252 Paddington-Worcester Foregate Street, which started 34 minutes late and arrived at Oxford 43 minutes late where it terminated, leaving passengers to wait until 1523 for the next train towards Worcester.

Yet on Saturday 11th July I travelled from Oxford to Alton and back for the Mid-Hants Diesel Gala and of the 9 trains I used just 1 was delayed; To my surprise (and pleasure) 1W03 1650 Paddington-Hereford ran spot on time, at least as far as Evesham...

This level of unreliability is a major issue for the railway, IMHO.

I haven't worked for the railways directly but I've always believed they could have so much going for them. Trouble is the UK culture is just so pro car, often even in rail management.

As for my original point, it's hard enough to run rail services in this heat, but when you add in the lack of staff enthusiasm, plus the apparent ease with which they can cry off from work especially many hours in advance on Sundays, then what hope to customers have?

I know I'll find it harder to defend them after this, to friends and family who know we were trusting them to get us to Southampton. At least we did get there on the next train, which was almost on time.

I felt sorry for the train manager though, who was trying very hard in an absolutely packed train. I really did wish those in high places (rail management and Govt) could have experienced what we all did. And yet they still claim to know what they're talking about!

 

[6Gman]

I haven't worked for the railways directly but I've always believed they could have so much going for them. Trouble is the UK culture is just so pro car, often even in rail management.

As for my original point, it's hard enough to run rail services in this heat, but when you add in the lack of staff enthusiasm, plus the apparent ease with which they can cry off from work especially many hours in advance on Sundays, then what hope to customers have?

If Sunday work is voluntary and only 5 drivers volunteer for the 8 jobs at your depot how is that crying off from work?

 

[Sonic1234]

If Sunday work is voluntary and only 5 drivers volunteer for the 8 jobs at your depot how is that crying off from work?

Not the passenger's concern. They see cancelled due to staff shortage, with an already reduced Sunday timetable and think stuff this.

 

[Llanigraham]

As for my original point, it's hard enough to run rail services in this heat, but when you add in the lack of staff enthusiasm, plus the apparent ease with which they can cry off from work especially many hours in advance on Sundays, then what hope to customers have?

If someone is only contracted to work Monday to Saturday, as many drivers, guards and signallers are, why do you expect them to work on their day off?
As has been said many times on this forum, the unions are quite happy to negotiate bringing Sundays into the working week, and recognise the extra cost that will entail the employer and therefore the passenger, but it is the employers who don't seem to be willing to join that negotiation.

 

[Shrop]

If Sunday work is voluntary and only 5 drivers volunteer for the 8 jobs at your depot how is that crying off from work?

In many industries, if a member of staff isn't available for an essential job, and the company knows about this many hours in advance, they call up a replacement member of staff who is on standby. It's not rocket science!

If this isn't done, or worse the company is run in a manner where it isn't practical, then it's a sorry reflection of modern society.

What it does do, is it explains why rail services are a good deal more successful in some countries than they are in the UK

 

[AndrewE]

In many industries, if a member of staff isn't available for an essential job, and the company knows about this many hours in advance, they call up a replacement member of staff who is on standby. It's not rocket science!

If this isn't done, or worse the company is run in a manner where it isn't practical, then it's a sorry reflection of modern society.

What it does do, is it explains why rail services are a good deal more successful in some countries than they are in the UK

I suspect that it's more a sorry reflection of how the staff have been treated over the last few years, repeated searches for "efficiencies" have cut numbers to the point that nobody at the sharp end has any leeway or discretion (and ticket barrier staff and some booking office staff aren't even properly trained.) They get sick of old railwaymen and the public telling them it could be better managed, when it is their management, plus the DfT and the Treasury who are the guilty parties.

 

[Shrop]

I suspect that it's more a sorry reflection of how the staff have been treated over the last few years, repeated searches for "efficiencies" have cut numbers to the point that nobody at the sharp end has any leeway or discretion (and ticket barrier staff and some booking office staff aren't even properly trained.) They get sick of old railwaymen and the public telling them it could be better managed, when it is their management, plus the DfT and the Treasury who are the guilty parties.

Exactly, it's the constant cost-cutting that causes many problems in many industries.

If something is working well, then one might think it's a good idea to stick to the successful formula, but then some young whizz-kid comes along with the mistaken belief that the system should be made more efficient by cutting its costs.

What their lack of experience demonstrates is that this approach is often a recipe for failure.

 

[dk1]

In many industries, if a member of staff isn't available for an essential job, and the company knows about this many hours in advance, they call up a replacement member of staff who is on standby. It's not rocket science!

If this isn't done, or worse the company is run in a manner where it isn't practical, then it's a sorry reflection of modern society.

What it does do, is it explains why rail services are a good deal more successful in some countries than they are in the UK

There are plenty of staff but such is the rate of pay now particuarly for drivers that there is no incentive to work extra anymore. You can add to that that management/staff agreements at operators such as XC have had this non-commitment to work Sundays agreed from both sides. It was obvious to me and anyone with any sense that it was always going to be a bargaining tool for unions and beggars belief that management thought it a good idea. Anyways it’s done now and we are where we are. How we get out of it is going to be a very difficult task indeed.

 

[Krokodil]

Not the passenger's concern. They see cancelled due to staff shortage, with an already reduced Sunday timetable and think stuff this.

It's not the fault of the frontline staff either if their employer doesn't employ enough staff to cover all seven days and/or doesn't offer a sufficiently attractive rate of overtime to encourage volunteers to fill the gaps. It's not about staff "crying off".

In many industries, if a member of staff isn't available for an essential job, and the company knows about this many hours in advance, they call up a replacement member of staff who is on standby. It's not rocket science!

Again this only works if you employ enough staff to cover all seven days and/or offer a sufficiently attractive rate of overtime to encourage volunteers to fill the gaps.

Ultimately solving this is in the hands of the DfT and the Treasury.