• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

What’s the furthest a member of staff can be overcarried one stop?

Gloster

Veteran Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
12,940
Location
Up the creek
Regarding the third point, I would think that in the days before mobile ‘phones if a member of staff was absent for longer than usual or when definitely needed there might be concern that they have had an accident and could be wandering around on the track in a daze. Although there is always the automatic reaction of thinking, ‘Well, they must be OK,’ there may come a point at which measures must be taken. If it is after dark and the last train has a long way to go to to its next stop, these could start before the member of staff has contacted someone…if they aren’t trying to get back without anyone noticing.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Recessio

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2019
Messages
1,491
Location
London
I guess this wouldn't really be a thing on London Underground, or do they do passenger assists onto trains?

I saw a member of cleaning staff at Morden on a Northern Line train, the doors closing alarm went off and they didn't make it off in time. Luckily for them it was proceeding northbound into service and not empty to depot
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
7,300
Regarding the third point, I would think that in the days before mobile ‘phones if a member of staff was absent for longer than usual or when definitely needed there might be concern that they have had an accident and could be wandering around on the track in a daze. Although there is always the automatic reaction of thinking, ‘Well, they must be OK,’ there may come a point at which measures must be taken. If it is after dark and the last train has a long way to go to to its next stop, these could start before the member of staff has contacted someone…if they aren’t trying to get back without anyone noticing.
"in the days before mobile phones" it was apparently the thing that emergency messages were written on paper, tied around something heavy and thrown out where a signalman would see it being done. This implies that the signal box had a telephone and could relay the message to where it was needed.
I imagine it was for things like "Put this train in a platform at ... station and get an ambulance to attend!" I can't remember if it was just in some fiction that I have read, on an old film or if it was in somebody's memoirs...
 

Gloster

Veteran Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
12,940
Location
Up the creek
"in the days before mobile phones" it was apparently the thing that emergency messages were written on paper, tied around something heavy and thrown out where a signalman would see it being done. This implies that the signal box had a telephone and could relay the message to where it was needed.
I imagine it was for things like "Put this train in a platform at ... station and get an ambulance to attend!" I can't remember if it was just in some fiction that I have read, on an old film or if it was in somebody's memoirs...

All sorts of things could be done if the situation warranted and the circumstances made it possible, but that wasn’t always the case. The old chestnut of a message pushed into a sliced potato or round a piece of coal from the restaurant car stove thrown out at a signal box no doubt did happen, but such things required good aim, the signalman to be looking in the right direction and it being daylight (and spuds on the menu). Showing ‘signs of alarm’ risks the signalman throwing the signals back causing an emergency stop, which may be an overreaction.

One possibility that I have had was the guard partially applying the brake before releasing it several times and hoping that the driver got the message. He did and stopped at my box, the guard told me what was up and I passed the message on that the train must make a special stop at Exeter (it was a Summer Saturday ‘runner’), where an ambulance was waiting. I have also had a guard bellowing ‘Taunton platform’ as a train passed for a train that should have run through the station.

One problem in more recent, but pre mobile ‘phone, days was long stretches without a station or signal box. There would be nothing to do in an emergency except stop the train and use a lineside or signal ‘phone.
 

Taunton

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
12,220
In the overnight "racing" that developed in the 1890s between London and Aberdeen, there were rapid loco changes and the train was sent off the moment the new loco was on, overseen by the stationmaster and all the inspectors. Multiple accounts of staff being overcarried. Kings Cross - Grantham - York - Newcastle etc, especially staff loading mails into the vans.

The "races" described here:

 

Mattplans

Member
Joined
27 Sep 2024
Messages
696
Location
London, UK
I saw a member of cleaning staff at Morden on a Northern Line train,
I observed something similar with cleaning staff on a Southbound (plat 1) Thameslink service at Blackfriars to Sutton. I assumed they were called on for one specific incident, but the cleaner gets on at Blackfriars and starts walking down the train emptying the bins, I get off and the train zooms away towards Elephant. I assume they don't have cleaners based at Sutton and it's somehow easier to have one based at Blackfriars who cleans while the train is moving (and a lot of passengers are still onboard) and gets off at Herne Hill maybe to return to Blackfriars. Weird arrangement!
 
Joined
10 Mar 2025
Messages
38
Location
Worcester
I’d assume on LU and DOO services that the assistance staff would speak to the driver quickly first, although I’m sure there’s been cases where they haven’t as they’ve been in a rush
I guess this wouldn't really be a thing on London Underground, or do they do passenger assists onto trains?

I saw a member of cleaning staff at Morden on a Northern Line train, the doors closing alarm went off and they didn't make it off in time. Luckily for them it was proceeding northbound into service and not empty to depot

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Sorry - could anyone tell me what Operation Rio is? I tried searching on this forum and Googling but couldn’t get an answer within railway context
 

Purple Train

Established Member
Joined
16 Jul 2022
Messages
2,444
Location
Despond
Sorry - could anyone tell me what Operation Rio is? I tried searching on this forum and Googling but couldn’t get an answer within railway context
I wasn't around at the time but I believe it was a temporary timetable pre-East Midlands Trains days when through trains were operated from St Pancras to Manchester Piccadilly via the Midland Main Line. I seem to remember it was to do with works on the West Coast Main Line.
 

jfollows

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
10,078
Location
Wilmslow
I’d assume on LU and DOO services that the assistance staff would speak to the driver quickly first, although I’m sure there’s been cases where they haven’t as they’ve been in a rush


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Sorry - could anyone tell me what Operation Rio is? I tried searching on this forum and Googling but couldn’t get an answer within railway context
Yes, Saint Pancras to Manchester Piccadilly hourly service operated generally by HSTs with a stop at Leicester and Stockport only, also known as "Project Rio", during WCML disruption May 2003 to September 2004.
 

Merle Haggard

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2019
Messages
3,851
Location
Northampton
Yes, Saint Pancras to Manchester Piccadilly hourly service operated generally by HSTs with a stop at Leicester and Stockport only, also known as "Project Rio", during WCML disruption May 2003 to September 2004.
Not quite correct; they certainly called Wellingborough and I'm fairly sure the other IC stations South of Leicester. That they were pathed by diverting the slow Nottingham is my recollection, but might be wrongly remembered.
 

jfollows

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
10,078
Location
Wilmslow
In my memory, as I described, I have no recollection of them stopping anywhere but Leicester on the times that I used them. But the working timetable from 2003 shows additional calls as you describe on some services. The services I recall went past Toton and hardly stopped at all.

EDIT Your memory is more accurate than mine, having now looked at the working timetable a bit more. All sorts of stops after Leicester as you say. 1P12 on a Saturday morning I used, I seem to recall.
 

Attachments

  • 1P12 06-47 Manchester Piccadilly to London Saint Pancras.pdf
    670.6 KB · Views: 58
Last edited:

contrex

Established Member
Joined
19 May 2009
Messages
1,657
Location
St Werburghs, Bristol
I wasn't around at the time but I believe it was a temporary timetable pre-East Midlands Trains days when through trains were operated from St Pancras to Manchester Piccadilly via the Midland Main Line. I seem to remember it was to do with works on the West Coast Main Line.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midland_Mainline_(train_operating_company)#Project_Rio

I never knew it was named after someone called Rio Ferdinand, who, apparently is/was some kind of sports person?
 

Merle Haggard

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2019
Messages
3,851
Location
Northampton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midland_Mainline_(train_operating_company)#Project_Rio

I never knew it was named after someone called Rio Ferdinand, who, apparently is/was some kind of sports person?

In my opinion an opportunity was missed by MML - perhaps they were too focussed on football...
During the West Coast modernisation a prospective Manchester passenger from Northampton was offered a tedious itinerary of the then-irregular all stations to Birmingham service and a Cross- Country service forward. it was strange that MML never publicised the opportunity to make the short drive to Wellingborough station to pick up a through service. Indeed, in an article about the 'Rio' service in Modern Railways MML management seems to be very apologetic that the service even made calls south of Leicester.

As an aside, he Wikipedia notes about train names might possibly have errors. I commuted into St Pancras on MML until 2000 and usually returned home on the 17.45 departure from St Pancras which had the 'Robin Hood' name (although it was a Leeds service). The 'Master Cutler' was applied to a departure around 17.25 - incidentally the 'Cutler sets' had 3 TFOs and one less TSO.

81 appearances for the England football team between 1997 and 2011.

I recollect just before Project Rio that the eponymous hero did not, however, make an appearance for a pre-booked drug test, instead preferring to shop for some new clothes. But perhaps I've mis-remembered.
 

Mcr Warrior

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Jan 2009
Messages
17,155
I recollect just before Project Rio that the eponymous hero did not, however, make an appearance for a pre-booked drug test, instead preferring to shop for some new clothes. But perhaps I've mis-remembered.
Copped an eight month playing ban for the transcretion. Passed a test 24 hours later, but the point was he'd swerved the pre-booked one the day before. Anyhoo think we're now drifting off topic here.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
112,941
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
On a Scout event I went on in 1998 a member of the Press I believe ended up going to Euston and back from Preston, they assumed it was going to stop at Wigan but it was a rare non-stop...

I think the current longest domestic non-stop run is Lumo with Kings Cross Stevenage to Newcastle, is it not? (Sorry, I thought there was one that didn't do Stevenage but it looks like they all do).

Edit: sorry, yes there is a southbound that doesn't do Stevenage but it does stop at Darlington (but not picking up/setting down) so overcarried staff could presumably get off there.
 

davehsug

Member
Joined
8 Jul 2014
Messages
353
Surely if someone's been overcarried, there has to be an intermediate stop between the boarding stop, and the stop mentioned, excepting those who were supposed to get off before the train departed of course.
 

GoneSouth

Established Member
Joined
17 Dec 2018
Messages
1,471
Also Manchester to Cardiff, but not really an over carry that one, more someone misunderstanding the job of customer care assistant (first day), and thinking you travelled with the person to their destination before helping them off...
That says a LOT about the TOC’s care and investment in staff training!
 

Mattplans

Member
Joined
27 Sep 2024
Messages
696
Location
London, UK
I don't agree. There's a lot of contexet missing from that, and it's their first day as well. We don't know whether that's someone being a bit overzealous and trying to take initiative or whether they were just left in the deep end for their first shift.
 

MikeWh

Established Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
15 Jun 2010
Messages
8,533
Location
Crayford
I observed something similar with cleaning staff on a Southbound (plat 1) Thameslink service at Blackfriars to Sutton. I assumed they were called on for one specific incident, but the cleaner gets on at Blackfriars and starts walking down the train emptying the bins, I get off and the train zooms away towards Elephant. I assume they don't have cleaners based at Sutton and it's somehow easier to have one based at Blackfriars who cleans while the train is moving (and a lot of passengers are still onboard) and gets off at Herne Hill maybe to return to Blackfriars. Weird arrangement!
The trains don't actually terminate at Sutton, they carry on the other way round the loop.
 

Silver Cobra

Member
Joined
4 Jun 2015
Messages
1,003
Location
Bedfordshire
I think the current longest domestic non-stop run is Lumo with Kings Cross Stevenage to Newcastle, is it not? (Sorry, I thought there was one that didn't do Stevenage but it looks like they all do).

Edit: sorry, yes there is a southbound that doesn't do Stevenage but it does stop at Darlington (but not picking up/setting down) so overcarried staff could presumably get off there.
The last northbound Lumo service from Kings Cross does appear to run non-stop all the way to Newcastle. Here's an example of it's run this past Thursday on RTT:


So I guess that does still stand as the longest theoretical overcarry in this situation.
 

Westwardbound

New Member
Joined
30 Mar 2020
Messages
3
Location
Bath
In the late 1970s/early 1980s my father had a minor surgical procedure in a Liverpool hospital. He stayed in overnight and on release next morning decided he would make his own way home to Runcorn “as he didn’t want a fuss”. He boarded the train at Lime Street, failed to alight at Runcorn and was overcarried to London Euston. According to him the carriage he was in stopped short of the platform at Runcorn. Other explanations are available.

My mother was informed by a telephone call from Euston (to a neighbour - we didn’t have a phone). We met him some time later off the return working, his arrival being preceded by an almost theatrical pushing of a wheelchair across a cruising at the station, for him.
 

GoneSouth

Established Member
Joined
17 Dec 2018
Messages
1,471
I don't agree. There's a lot of contexet missing from that, and it's their first day as well. We don't know whether that's someone being a bit overzealous and trying to take initiative or whether they were just left in the deep end for their first shift.
Precisely, being left in the deep end on your first shift is not adequate training.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
112,941
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Lots of posts about passengers - the thread is about staff.

I'm not sure the answer would be any different - it's Lumo from Kings Cross to Newcastle on that single non stop service (or if we consider that for them to be overcarried they must have been being carried first, then from Stevenage to Newcastle).

The most likely scenario for this is probably staff assisting someone to board and the train being dispatched before they alighted.
 

Top