Could reviving the old Broad Street to Watford Junction service work?

[Gareth1990]

Obviously not to Broad Street but to Liverpool Street, could a new London Overground service work? It would provide so much more connectivity between Southwest Hertfordshire and Northwest London to the city along with reopening Primrose Hill taking pressure off Camden Town and Camden Road stations

 

[CyrusWuff]

One blocker for a regular service into Liverpool Street is the single track Graham Road Curve that connects the West Anglia and North London Lines just South of Hackney Downs.

Trains heading towards Liverpool Street would block the Westbound NLL and both the Up and Down Slow Lines during the move.

 

[jfollows]

I went on one of the services using the Graham Road curve from Liverpool Street to Watford back in the day, but my question would be - what’s changed since then to make this a worthwhile service today when it wasn’t then?

 

[Magdalia]

It would provide so much more connectivity between Southwest Hertfordshire and Northwest London to the city

That connectivity is already provided by the Metropolitan Line.

reopening Primrose Hill taking pressure off Camden Town and Camden Road stations

Reopening Primrose Hill does not take pressure off Camden Road, it increases it.

 

[Gareth1990]

That connectivity is already provided by the Metropolitan Line.


Reopening Primrose Hill does not take pressure off Camden Road, it increases it.

I know the Met line station, it’s a long way from town, I’d argue so far out the connectivity is NOT there

 

[swt_passenger]

Obviously not to Broad Street but to Liverpool Street, could a new London Overground service work? It would provide so much more connectivity between Southwest Hertfordshire and Northwest London to the city along with reopening Primrose Hill taking pressure off Camden Town and Camden Road stations

No, it wouldn’t work. The NLL is basically already full. Primrose Hill station reopening is one of a number of fantasy ideas with no chance of happening.

 

[Mr. SW]

I've looked at similar schemes over the years and repercussions are severe.
1. Remove Bakerloo line services from beyond Queens Park.
2. Rebuild Primrose Hill Station and provide some sort of connection with Chalk Farm, Northern line.
3. Create reversing facilities at Primrose Hill.
4. Rebuild Camden Road Junction to separate services.
5. Reinstate the four platform layout at Camden Road Station.
6. Repair or replace the bridges to the East of Camden Road Station to provide for four-tracking and to bring them up to standard.
7. Reinstate the four platform layout at Caledonian Road and Barnsbury.
8. Replace, reinstate or otherwise realign tracks between Camden Road and Westbourne Road Junction.
9. A whole load of extra stuff and details like operation and train provision that I can't be bothered to go into now.
So, not technically impossible operation- or engineering-wise but extremely expensive for just a couple of trains.
This is why God willed the Tube to exist to provide this very service.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I know the Met line station, it’s a long way from town, I’d argue so far out the connectivity is NOT there

I presume you are talking about Watford Met. It’s in Watford and five of Watford’s twelve wards form it’s walking catchment area. It is just under a mile to the top of the town centre - about a 15 minute walk.

The DC is too slow for the City and east end of London. Far quicker for those in Watford not living near the Met to take a fast train from the Junction into Euston, walk to Euston Square and then get a Met/Circle/H&C from there. That was my journey to the Street and beyond for years.

I can’t see anyone using a direct Overground service when far better options exist now.

 

[edwin_m]

I presume you are talking about Watford Met. It’s in Watford and five of Watford’s twelve wards form it’s walking catchment area. It is just under a mile to the top of the town centre - about a 15 minute walk.

The DC is too slow for the City and east end of London. Far quicker for those in Watford not living near the Met to take a fast train from the Junction into Euston, walk to Euston Square and then get a Met/Circle/H&C from there. That was my journey to the Street and beyond for years.

This would be a commuter service so demand would be from the residential parts of Watford not from the town centre, so the Met station should be well placed for some of this and the Junction or Bushey would capture some more. As an alternative to Euston Square there is now the Northern to TCR and the Elizabeth.

 

[Gareth1990]

I presume you are talking about Watford Met. It’s in Watford and five of Watford’s twelve wards form it’s walking catchment area. It is just under a mile to the top of the town centre - about a 15 minute walk.

The DC is too slow for the City and east end of London. Far quicker for those in Watford not living near the Met to take a fast train from the Junction into Euston, walk to Euston Square and then get a Met/Circle/H&C from there. That was my journey to the Street and beyond for years.

I can’t see anyone using a direct Overground service when far better options exist now.

15 minutes walk during the day yes, after dark unless you want to walk down an unlit path in Cassiobury park it can take a while longer

 

[cle]

The latest iteration of this (which was eons ago) - was ELL to Queens Park / Willesden Junction low level - which may not have even featured a 'Chalk Farm' station... hasn't been mentioned in a while, and the NLL is much higher frequency these days (12tph?) so without a big bit of work at Camden (as it is quadded through Caledonian Road, etc) - a lot of work.

And not sure if the frequency is needed through there now, 10-12tph is better than many tube branches.

——

Watford to Broad St did used to have semi fast patterns as I recall reading, it likely wouldn’t have been used for end to end journeys in the main anyway.

 

[Bald Rick]

Which services on the North London Line and DC Lines would be removed to make space for this proposal?

 

[Class15]

Which services on the North London Line and DC Lines would be removed to make space for this proposal?

Do any need to be? The NLL east of Camden Road has a lower headway than the Hampstead bit.

In the peak they’d definitely fit. Off-peak with freight I don’t know but freight isn’t the most intensive on the Stratford - Camden section (particularly since the loss of many Felixstowe services).

 

[AlexSJW]

That connectivity is already provided by the Metropolitan Line.

Exactly. Railway infrastructure costs a fortune to built. When a service is already there no money will be spent.

 

[Bald Rick]

Do any need to be? The NLL east of Camden Road has a lower headway than the Hampstead bit.

In the peak they’d definitely fit. Off-peak with freight I don’t know but freight isn’t the most intensive on the Stratford - Camden section (particularly since the loss of many Felixstowe services).

Yes they do, and the Felixstowe services will be back.

 

[PeterC]

I have seen freight trains held on the viaduct between Camden Road and Primrose Hill waiting for a path on the NLL. Where would these wait?

 

[Class15]

I have seen freight trains held on the viaduct between Camden Road and Primrose Hill waiting for a path on the NLL. Where would these wait?

Willesden (Eastbound trains) and Camden Road East Jn (Westbound trains) until a suitable path became available. Plus, such a service would I assume be 2tph, giving plenty of good paths.

 

[Bald Rick]

I have seen freight trains held on the viaduct between Camden Road and Primrose Hill waiting for a path on the NLL. Where would these wait?

On the WCML. Plenty of spare paths there. Oh wait!

 

[cle]

Also worth noting that H&W has a great peak service, and Bushey's is far better than in living memory. Anywhere closer in might have better Met options (Kenton/Wembley area) - or gets into Bakerloo/DC territory of being higher frequency. I don't see it.

If plans go through to increase WLL/NLL service even more (difficult but always welcome, it might get to 6tph on each route? plus some peak extras, and the Southerns) - I can't see much room for anything else.

 

[zwk500]

Willesden (Eastbound trains)

Which bit of Willesden? WEFOC, the Reliefs, and the UDGs already have enough traffic standing on them through the day managing traffic to/from the WCML and NLL, GWML or WLL.

and Camden Road East Jn (Westbound trains) until a suitable path became available. Plus, such a service would I assume be 2tph, giving plenty of good paths.

Why do you assume it would only be 2tph? If this was Overground, TfL are likely to want it to be 4tph minimum.

 

[Bald Rick]

If plans go through to increase WLL/NLL service even more (difficult but always welcome, it might get to 6tph on each route? plus some peak extras, and the Southerns) - I can't see much room for anything else.

There is no plan to increase services, because there is no capacity to do so. It’s more likely that services are reduced, because the current timetable doesn’t work well.

 

[87015]

On the WCML. Plenty of spare paths there. Oh wait!

Was much freight declined on Friday when Primrose Hill was blocked for fire repairs? There's more freight been added to the NLL in December, so NR clearly arent against putting more trains through it.

 

[Bald Rick]

Was much freight declined on Friday when Primrose Hill was blocked for fire repairs? There's more freight been added to the NLL in December, so NR clearly arent against putting more trains through it.

I don’t know in detail, but Friday is typically a quieter day for freight on the NLL. And I know you will agree there is a difference between adding in a few freight trains compared to an additional (minimum) half hourly passenger service.