Experiences of service recovery (or lack of) on GTR Great Northern

[MikeWM]

What is actually causing these trains to get so late?

In the specific case of tonight's 1T50, it left KGX 26 down due to the incoming service (1T45) arriving at KGX 32 late.

1T45 was 14 late leaving KLN due to the incoming service (1T34) arriving at KLN 17 minutes late. It then lost 8 minutes at Downham Market to get onto the single track, then lost another 10 minutes between Cambridge and Hitchin stuck behind the (on-time) 2C51 Cambridge-KGX stopper.

I'm not sure why 1T34 was late getting to KLN. It left KGX on time but just seems to have lost a few minutes here and there throughout its journey, possibly in part due to congestion at Cambridge.

Basically there are too many places where things can go wrong, and totally insufficient recovery time at both KLN and KGX to do anything to catch back up (instead the delays compound, as here). As such, the 1354 train losing a few minutes here and there for whatever reason results in people trying to get the 1748 home ending up with a delay of 45 minutes.

The timetable doesn't work. We all predicted the timetable wouldn't/couldn't work when it was published, but here we are.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

In the specific case of tonight's 1T50, it left KGX 26 down due to the incoming service (1T45) arriving at KGX 32 late.

1T45 was 14 late leaving KLN due to the incoming service (1T34) arriving at KLN 17 minutes late. It then lost 8 minutes at Downham Market to get onto the single track, then lost another 10 minutes between Cambridge and Hitchin stuck behind the (on-time) 2C51 Cambridge-KGX stopper.

I'm not sure why 1T34 was late getting to KLN. It left KGX on time but just seems to have lost a few minutes here and there throughout its journey, possibly in part due to congestion at Cambridge.

Basically there are too many places where things can go wrong, and totally insufficient recovery time at both KLN and KGX to do anything to catch back up (instead the delays compound, as here). As such, the 1354 train losing a few minutes here and there for whatever reason results in people trying to get the 1748 home ending up with a delay of 45 minutes.

The timetable doesn't work. We all predicted the timetable wouldn't/couldn't work when it was published, but here we are.

Surely yhey would be better off running Ely to Kings Lynn as a shuttle given all the delays the single line sections import to reliability over the whole route length.

 

[MikeWM]

Surely yhey would be better off running Ely to Kings Lynn as a shuttle given all the delays the single line sections import to reliability over the whole route length.

I haven't worked it out, but I'm fairly sure there isn't anywhere near the required platform capacity at Ely to have these services terminating in both directions here. (Same for Cambridge if you wanted to have a Kings Lynn-Cambridge shuttle, for that matter).

 

[tatitiliti]

In the specific case of tonight's 1T50, it left KGX 26 down due to the incoming service (1T45) arriving at KGX 32 late.

1T45 was 14 late leaving KLN due to the incoming service (1T34) arriving at KLN 17 minutes late. It then lost 8 minutes at Downham Market to get onto the single track, then lost another 10 minutes between Cambridge and Hitchin stuck behind the (on-time) 2C51 Cambridge-KGX stopper.

I'm not sure why 1T34 was late getting to KLN. It left KGX on time but just seems to have lost a few minutes here and there throughout its journey, possibly in part due to congestion at Cambridge.

Basically there are too many places where things can go wrong, and totally insufficient recovery time at both KLN and KGX to do anything to catch back up (instead the delays compound, as here). As such, the 1354 train losing a few minutes here and there for whatever reason results in people trying to get the 1748 home ending up with a delay of 45 minutes.

The timetable doesn't work. We all predicted the timetable wouldn't/couldn't work when it was published, but here we are.

In my view, the biggest issue is recovery time at King’s Cross and King’s Lynn.

Well, Network Rail doesn’t want GN services occupying four platforms at King’s Cross anymore (so LNER services can be prioritised), so that recovery has to at least come the other end.

I can see this timetable somewhat working if they have 70-minute recovery times at King’s Lynn rather than 10-minute recovery times. The best solution for this is to extend platform 3 and bring back into regular passenger service to increase capacity.

No one wants continually longer journey times - they’re longer now as it is than when the through journeys were introduced, in part because of the stupid decision to run Thameslink 700s through Finsbury Park and up to Cambridge.

 

[tatitiliti]

What is actually causing these trains to get so late?

In my view, the biggest issue is recovery time at King’s Cross and King’s Lynn.

Well, Network Rail doesn’t want GN services occupying four platforms at King’s Cross anymore (so LNER services can be prioritised), so that recovery has to at least come the other end.

I can see this timetable somewhat working if they have 70-minute recovery times at King’s Lynn rather than 10-minute recovery times. The best solution for this is to extend platform 3 and bring back into regular passenger service to increase capacity.

No one wants continually longer journey times - they’re longer now as it is than when the through journeys were introduced, in part because of the stupid decision to run Thameslink 700s through Finsbury Park and up to Cambridge.

 

[bramling]

In my view, the biggest issue is recovery time at King’s Cross and King’s Lynn.

Well, Network Rail doesn’t want GN services occupying four platforms at King’s Cross anymore (so LNER services can be prioritised), so that recovery has to at least come the other end.

I can see this timetable somewhat working if they have 70-minute recovery times at King’s Lynn rather than 10-minute recovery times. The best solution for this is to extend platform 3 and bring back into regular passenger service to increase capacity.

No one wants continually longer journey times - they’re longer now as it is than when the through journeys were introduced, in part because of the stupid decision to run Thameslink 700s through Finsbury Park and up to Cambridge.

I don’t think the longer turnrounds at Kings Lynn will be anything other than a sticking plaster. It won’t address the problem of trains picking up delays. What it will do is help avoid having them propagate southwards. But this will only work if southbound trains are prioritised at all costs on the single line sections, so be prepared for some significantly delayed northbound journeys at times.

The real problem lies between Hitchin and Cambridge, and unfortunately there isn’t an easy fix for this. Thameslink services could do with a longer turnround at Cambridge.

I don’t think a Cambridge-Kings Lynn shuttle would be viable. I’m not sure how it would be platformed at Cambridge (especially if longer than 4 cars), and politically it would be difficult to implement given that Kings Lynn has had a direct London service for many years.

The GN route only works well when things run on time, a major enabler of which was having northbound services commence their journeys at King’s Cross. It doesn’t help that there’s other vulnerabilities at play nowadays as well, such as generally more GA trains using Cambridge station, more trains between Cambridge and Ely, etc

 

[tatitiliti]

Another fine start to the day on GN with two hours of peak-time cancellations, including 1T13, 1T15, and 1T17 running non-stop between King’s Lynn and Ely (which, amusingly, did not recover a single minute).

A mix of ‘shortage of train crew’ and ‘fault on this train’.

 

[Magdalen Road]

This seems to be the standard pattern now. Following similar disruption on Saturday. I ended up getting an expensive taxi on Saturday morning because the 0717 was cancelled at short notice, disappeared from the screens rather than showing as cancelled. Whilst I was trying to find out from station staff what was going on, the Stansted left, just as they said, oh yes it’s been cancelled. At least if it had been on the screen as cancelled I could have made a dash for it.
As it was 50 mins to the next train, with no guarantee of that actually running I had a deadline, it was £68 on a taxi!
Presumably no chance of claiming that back.

 

[Magdalen Road]

Another fine start to the day on GN with two hours of peak-time cancellations, including 1T13, 1T15, and 1T17 running non-stop between King’s Lynn and Ely (which, amusingly, did not recover a single minute).

A mix of ‘shortage of train crew’ and ‘fault on this train’.

IT38 is missing Waterbeach, and then nonstop between Ely and King's Lynn, though it's difficult to be certain because the driver's announcement crackled so much.

 

[RailwayRookie]

Another fine start to the day on GN with two hours of peak-time cancellations, including 1T13, 1T15, and 1T17 running non-stop between King’s Lynn and Ely (which, amusingly, did not recover a single minute).

A mix of ‘shortage of train crew’ and ‘fault on this train’.

Just to be a pedant, 1T17 did stop at all stations between Lynn and Ely, it just wasnt reinstated on the system.

 

[Mattplans]

New one today...
Core is currently shut due to emergency repairs to the railway


Edit: Up Greenwich now blocked with Thameslink

 

[MikeWM]

IT38 is missing Waterbeach, and then nonstop between Ely and King's Lynn, though it's difficult to be certain because the driver's announcement crackled so much.

I see that on GN's live departures board, but, err, why? At this point (approaching Cambridge) it is a very rare example of a GN train that is on time, so why skip stops??

 

[Bikeman78]

I do wonder sometimes as well, if the Fen Line User Group (or whoever it was) much documented win in getting GTR/FCC to make KLN drivers go to London, has actually made it worse.

When did that change happen? The class 317s finished nine years ago. I think the 1915 Cambridge to King's Cross 317 working was a King's Lynn driver.

 

[Magdalen Road]

Ap

I see that on GN's live departures board, but, err, why? At this point (approaching Cambridge) it is a very rare example of a GN train that is on time, so why skip stops??

Apparently due to a fault on the train. How does a train fault mean it's missing stops?
It is of course, now late!

 

[RailwayRookie]

Ap
Apparently due to a fault on the train. How does a train fault mean it's missing stops?
It is of course, now late!

DOO problems perhaps?
Since the three stops between Ely and Kings Lynn are unstaffed.

 

[Magdalen Road]

DOO problems perhaps?
Since the three stops between Ely and Kings Lynn are unstaffed.

Could be, the driver hasn't shared details. I'm just glad it's stopping at Ely.

 

[jon0844]

There are a few trains with DOO issues meaning they need dispatching by platform staff, and not all stations are suitably staffed.

The issue has likely become a bigger thing in recent days because with the 700 issues, more 387s and 379s are being split up and joined, and this is when the trains can fail to show the images of some or all cameras on a unit (or the whole train).

The fault can sometimes only be from one cab end so you can run as normal in the other direction.

 

[tatitiliti]

Just to be a pedant, 1T17 did stop at all stations between Lynn and Ely, it just wasnt reinstated on the system.

The departure board showed 1T17 as cancelled between King’s Lynn and Ely, but RTT shows it as having stopped for passenger service between those stations.

What was behind this?

 

[MikeWM]

This evening the 1648, 1718 and 1748 KGX-KLN are all cancelled. Another great evening on the Great Northern.

I see on GN's website that they've issued an apology for the so-called 'service' over the past few weeks, though on today's record things aren't exactly improving, maybe they should have waited for a day when the service hasn't collapsed before promising things will improve.

 

[RailwayRookie]

The departure board showed 1T17 as cancelled between King’s Lynn and Ely, but RTT shows it as having stopped for passenger service between those stations.

What was behind this?

I would imagine it wasnt worth reinstating the train on the system for the stops it now could call at once it was established the fault didnt affect the city end cab or had been rectified after its arrival as 1T06

 

[saismee]

Ap
Apparently due to a fault on the train. How does a train fault mean it's missing stops?
It is of course, now late!

It was due to some DOO cameras not working.

 

[tatitiliti]

This evening the 1648, 1718 and 1748 KGX-KLN are all cancelled. Another great evening on the Great Northern.

I see on GN's website that they've issued an apology for the so-called 'service' over the past few weeks, though on today's record things aren't exactly improving, maybe they should have waited for a day when the service hasn't collapsed before promising things will improve.

It gets better! Most of the Ely ones gone too… 3.5 hours of consecutive delays between London and King’s Lynn.

 

[MikeWM]

It gets better! Most of the Ely ones gone too… 3.5 hours of consecutive delays between London and King’s Lynn.

Nah, GN are clearly great at running a railway - 1T52 the 1818 KGX-KLN ran on time! Which would have been a welcome change for any regulars for that train as that's the first time it has arrived less than 10 minutes late at Ely since June 22nd (!) - though rather less welcome to those who got home 90+ minutes late with the cancellation of the previous three.

1T48 and 1T50 still haven't managed to arrive at Ely less than 10 minutes late since June 17th... though I guess we're supposed to be grateful for the nights they arrive at all, given they've each been cancelled for 5 out of the last 7 weeknights.

 

[Jim]

When did that change happen? The class 317s finished nine years ago. I think the 1915 Cambridge to King's Cross 317 working was a King's Lynn driver.

Blimey good question! I remember seeing it on the poster board at Downham Market I think, in the user group updates, saying they were pleased to have campaigned about it, must have been one of my first trips down there, so early 2010's maybe I reckon.

 

[tatitiliti]

The first weekday in a while where the Fen line service doesn’t look absolutely hideous

 

[Bikeman78]

Blimey good question! I remember seeing it on the poster board at Downham Market I think, in the user group updates, saying they were pleased to have campaigned about it, must have been one of my first trips down there, so early 2010's maybe I reckon.

Ah ok, so that change in itself didn't knacker the performance. My recollection is that the 2010s were a lot better than now. Probably helped by all drivers signing all traction, and virtually all routes.

 

[MikeWM]

The first weekday in a while where the Fen line service doesn’t look absolutely hideous

Indeed! No cancellations, nothing appallingly late. That said, 1T48, 1T50, 1T52, 1T54 and 1T56 were all more than 5 minutes late by Ely, but given the past month...

1T48 and 1T50 finally break the record I mentioned above by being less than 10 late at Ely, first time since June 17th. But they were 9.5 and 8.5 late respectively, so only *just*!

--

Ah ok, so that change in itself didn't knacker the performance. My recollection is that the 2010s were a lot better than now. Probably helped by all drivers signing all traction, and virtually all routes.

Weekends were pretty good in the early 2010s in the last days of FCC - they started falling to pieces pretty much immediately when GTR took over in 2014. I started a thread on that back in May 2016.

Weekdays were more-or-less ok even after GTR took over - apart from the 2018 timetable fiasco - until after covid. Things have pretty much been consistently/incrementally downhill since then.

 

[Jim]

Ah ok, so that change in itself didn't knacker the performance. My recollection is that the 2010s were a lot better than now. Probably helped by all drivers signing all traction, and virtually all routes.

No, but from a resourcing point of view, does it now make it harder to run a self contained KLN CBG shuttle during disruption, where as before presumably a lot of trains were fresh crew at Cambridge?

 

[Horizon22]

In the specific case of tonight's 1T50, it left KGX 26 down due to the incoming service (1T45) arriving at KGX 32 late.

1T45 was 14 late leaving KLN due to the incoming service (1T34) arriving at KLN 17 minutes late. It then lost 8 minutes at Downham Market to get onto the single track, then lost another 10 minutes between Cambridge and Hitchin stuck behind the (on-time) 2C51 Cambridge-KGX stopper.

I'm not sure why 1T34 was late getting to KLN. It left KGX on time but just seems to have lost a few minutes here and there throughout its journey, possibly in part due to congestion at Cambridge.

Basically there are too many places where things can go wrong, and totally insufficient recovery time at both KLN and KGX to do anything to catch back up (instead the delays compound, as here). As such, the 1354 train losing a few minutes here and there for whatever reason results in people trying to get the 1748 home ending up with a delay of 45 minutes.

The timetable doesn't work. We all predicted the timetable wouldn't/couldn't work when it was published, but here we are.

I mean this is a clear example of a lack of service recovery - do nothing and watch the timetable unravel. Yet people complain about service alterations and wonder why.

The timetable appears far too tight and probably needs an overhaul. Probably works fine with nothing going wrong but the slight whiff of a problem and it throws everything out of whack.

 

[MikeWM]

I mean this is a clear example of a lack of service recovery - do nothing and watch the timetable unravel. Yet people complain about service alterations and wonder why.

The timetable appears far too tight and probably needs an overhaul. Probably works fine with nothing going wrong but the slight whiff of a problem and it throws everything out of whack.

I think part of the problem is we get the service alterations *as well*. In this specific case, the preceding two services had been cancelled so presumably they felt somewhat pressured to try to run this one, even with such a delay.

With:

- Limited platform space at KGX
- Fitting in services from Thameslink at Finsbury Park
- Welwyn Viaduct
- The long busy section between Hitchin and Cambridge with no places for fast services to overtake slower trains
- Congestion at the south end of Cambridge as soon as any delays happen
- Ely North Junction
- The single-track sections north of Ely, particularly the almost 10-mile section between Littleport and Downham Market

the chances of *something* going wrong at one or more of these places are very very high. And any issue then snowballs.