Pre-1956, how common was provision of all three classes on trains? Also, what were the differences between the different classes?

[Transilien]

From what I’ve seen, most trains had two classes of travel before this was standardised in 1956, first and third, how common was second class accommodation on trains before 1956 then? Also was the experience much different from ether third or first class?

 

[The exile]

From what I’ve seen, most trains had two classes of travel before this was standardised in 1956, first and third, how common was second class accommodation on trains before 1956 then? Also was the experience much different from ether third or first class?

Continental boat trains only, I believe, for many years - presumably a consequence of through ticketing from ships and foreign railways that retained 3 classes of travel.

 

[Gloster]

From what I’ve seen, most trains had two classes of travel before this was standardised in 1956, first and third, how common was second class accommodation on trains before 1956 then? Also was the experience much different from ether third or first class?

Second Class started to disappear when the Midland Railway removed it 1875 and by the Grouping few of the main railways still offered it, although some minor ones did. The exception was continental boat trains, where Second Class through tickets were offered as the railways on the continent still had three classes. For this they needed Second Class carriages: as late as 1953 BR built fifteen Mark 1 Open Second coaches, when most were still Thirds, for boat train use. When the continental railways abolished Third in 1956, these were no longer needed.

The 1953 coaches were a compromise: First Class 2+1 seating but Third Class eight bays per coach. I suspect that the Second Class coaches were only slightly more comfortable than Third and noticeably less comfortable than First Class. (Don’t want First Class passengers downgrading, do we?)

 

[Taunton]

There was the oddball exception of Pullman trains, which themselves provided two classes (where there was just a single Pullman vehicle in the formation, it was divided, half each). Pullman First was indeed better than regular First Class, but Pullman Third was an odd sort of halfway house.

Continental Europe had more fluidity about classes provided than the UK, where First and Third were pretty universal on everything, except for commuter services within London, which were reduced to Third only in 1940 and never changed back. But in mainland Europe expresses were sometimes first class only, and others first and second only, leaving third class fare traffic to stopping trains only. The whole of the 1950s TEE express services launched in the 1950s were first class only. Back in the 1930s the high speed diesels introduced internally within Germany had a different approach and were notably egalitarian in a three class system - second class only.

 

[The exile]

Back in the 1930s the high speed diesels introduced internally within Germany had a different approach and were notably egalitarian in a three class system - second class only.

The regime at the time paid a lot of lip-service to egalitarianism - ironic considering their other “hierarchical” views.

 

[Beebman]

Second Class started to disappear when the Midland Railway removed it 1875 and by the Grouping few of the main railways still offered it, although some minor ones did. The exception was continental boat trains, where Second Class through tickets were offered as the railways on the continent still had three classes. For this they needed Second Class carriages: as late as 1953 BR built fifteen Mark 1 Open Second coaches, when most were still Thirds, for boat train use. When the continental railways abolished Third in 1956, these were no longer needed.

The 1953 coaches were a compromise: First Class 2+1 seating but Third Class eight bays per coach. I suspect that the Second Class coaches were only slightly more comfortable than Third and noticeably less comfortable than First Class. (Don’t want First Class passengers downgrading, do we?)

There were 15 such coaches built in 1953, S3500-S3514, and I believe they were referred to as Boat Seconds. My copy of ABC British Railway Coaches from 1962 shows them as 48-seat vehicles with the fourth bay from the toilet end having an external door cut into it on each side. It says that the intermediate boat train second class was abolished on June 3rd 1956 and intially the coaches became 'ordinary' seconds but the SR upgraded them to first class because of their limited seating capacity.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The BR Standard 2nd class coaches (before 1957) on the Southern Region were well known but what provided second accommodation on the E.R. services to Harwich? Were there some late-build Thomson 2nds so there was no need for any BR Standard coaches to be built?
The LMR had BR standard TO later SO - not TTO/TSO but 2+1 seating - for dining (and as an aside this included early Mk2s) and I wonder how they differed from the Southern's ones.perhaps slightly wider seats.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jul 2026 ==

There were 15 such coaches built in 1953, S3500-S3514, and I believe they were referred to as Boat Seconds. My copy of ABC British Railway Coaches from 1962 shows them as 48-seat vehicles with the fourth bay from the toilet end having an external door cut into it on each side. It says that the intermediate boat train second class was abolished on June 3rd 1956 and intially the coaches became 'ordinary' seconds but the SR upgraded them to first class because of their limited seating capacity.

The extra door later cut into the middle of a seating bay was also done to the early BR standard FO. I think that this was the result of a fire on a Thomson open twin which had very sparse external doors and passengers were trapped as a result.

 

[30907]

The economical Southern has a batch of 20 Brake Unclassed Opens for Short Sea traffic which could be used as Second or Third as required. I believe they had class numbers that slotted into place. They are commonly seen in photos of Continental services till the end of steam.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The economical Southern has a batch of 20 Brake Unclassed Opens for Short Sea traffic which could be used as Second or Third as required. I believe they had class numbers that slotted into place. They are commonly seen in photos of Continental services till the end of steam.

Not quite the same, but the LMS/LMR and LNER/ER had unclassified restaurant cars and the ER even had BR Standard ones - RUOs E1018-57. The LMR ones at least had a similar system of indication of class at the time on reversible varnished wood plates slotted over the vestibule doors

 

[Beebman]

The LMR had BR standard TO later SO - not TTO/TSO but 2+1 seating - for dining (and as an aside this included early Mk2s) and I wonder how they differed from the Southern's ones.perhaps slightly wider seats.

Studying the plans in the 1962 ABC it seems that the 1953 SR boat seconds had identical internal dimensions to the earliest TSOs which had no central doors, the only difference being that the boat seconds had 2+1 seating and the centre doors cut into one bay. The later SOs used for dining would have had the central vestibule with doors so the legroom would have been less. (not sure though about seat width.)

 

[Merle Haggard]

Studying the plans in the 1962 ABC it seems that the 1953 SR boat seconds had identical internal dimensions to the earliest TSOs which had no central doors, the only difference being that the boat seconds had 2+1 seating and the centre doors cut into one bay. The later SOs used for dining would have had the central vestibule with doors so the legroom would have been less. (not sure though about seat width.)

Thanks, interesting.
I have an (incomplete) set of diagrams for BR Standard coaches which includes both exterior view and internal layout. Careful comparison between the SR SOs (3500s) and one for an LMR TO/SO interior diagrams shows, counter-intuitively, that the gangway is slightly narrower (and, implicitly, the seats slightly wider) on the latter.
The diagrams don't show arm-rests on either diagram, though they do on the FOs. I am fairly sure that the BR Standard SOs had fixed armrest between the double seats as a result of an incident that sticks in my memory. The reason I am fairly sure that this was the case was because one found its way into a Cobbler set, and myself and another slim passenger were occupying a double seat and a third passenger thought she could easily sit between us, but found sitting on an armrest had its inconveniences

 

[norbitonflyer]

The BR Standard 2nd class coaches (before 1957) on the Southern Region were well known but what provided second accommodation on the E.R. services to Harwich? Were there some late-build Thomson 2nds so there was no need for any BR Standard coaches to be built?
The LMR had BR standard TO later SO - not TTO/TSO but 2+1 seating - for dining (and as an aside this included early Mk2s) and I wonder how they differed from the Southern's ones.perhaps slightly wider seats.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jul 2026 ==



The extra door later cut into the middle of a seating bay was also done to the early BR standard FO. I think that this was the result of a fire on a Thomson open twin which had very sparse external doors and passengers were trapped as a result.

Looking atb the diagrams in Longworth, the most obvious difference between the Boat train Open Seconds and the open First was that the former had eight seating bays (like a third class coach) whilst the latter had seven, thereby giving more legroom. Both had 2+1 seating, whilst the thirds had 2+2.

The SOs had a door in one of the seating bays, as did the second batch of FOs E3003-M3019. All subsequent Mark 1 FOs had a vestibule inserted between two sets of seat backs, thereby reducing the seat pitch slightly but meaning each bay could have a table. (3020-3151)

mark 2 and 3 open firsts only had doors at the ends

 

[Gloster]

There were 15 such coaches built in 1953, S3500-S3514, and I believe they were referred to as Boat Seconds. My copy of ABC British Railway Coaches from 1962 shows them as 48-seat vehicles with the fourth bay from the toilet end having an external door cut into it on each side. It says that the intermediate boat train second class was abolished on June 3rd 1956 and intially the coaches became 'ordinary' seconds but the SR upgraded them to first class because of their limited seating capacity.

Once the old Second Class had been abolished they were in common use with the rest of the Southern Region’s Seconds, but they had forty-eight places compared to sixty-four. Problems could arise if a forty-eight seater turned up in a train for which seat reservations or numbers had been calculated on the basis of sixty-four per vehicle. Reclassifying them to Firsts in 1959 was probably the best option; some later became restaurant vehicles.

 

[Ben Rhydding]

The Midland was a pioneer in abolishing second class in 1875 but, ironically, it ended up amongst the last to retain three classes. It re-acquired second class when it took over the Belfast & Northern Counties Railway in 1903. Three classes were retained through the Grouping and Nationalisation right up to 1956. The MR (NCC), LMS (NCC), BR (NCC) and finally the UTA had first, second and third. In 1956, when everyone else re-designated third as second, the UTA fell into line by abolishing third.

 

[Rescars]

The Oxford Companion notes that by 1865 there were seven classes of passengers, though these were quite rapidly consolidated. Fourth class appears to have disappeared on the 1970s following legislative changes concerning the operation of Parliamentary Trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jul 2026 ==

Not quite the same, but the LMS/LMR and LNER/ER had unclassified restaurant cars and the ER even had BR Standard ones - RUOs E1018-57. The LMR ones at least had a similar system of indication of class at the time on reversible varnished wood plates slotted over the vestibule doors

Unclassified restaurant cars had the great advantage that they could be fitted out with tables and seating designed for the service and consumption of meals. By being available to first and second class passengers at the same time, there was the possibility of every seat being taken, thus maximising catering revenue at each meal sitting.

 

[thenorthern]

On thing to remember as well until 2005 there was another thing thrown into the mix having smoking and non-smoking coaches. While smoking accommodation had largely disappeared from local and suburban services by 1990 back in 1956 having smoking coaches was much more common given the majority of the adult population smoked.

On local trains it was often not that important to have the option of seperate classes but rather haveing the option of smoking and non smoking was.

 

[Magdalia]

but what provided second accommodation on the E.R. services to Harwich?

The Great Eastern Railway (GER) abolished second class, though I can't find the date.

They made an exception for the Hook Continental, and a few other London boat trains, which had second class but not third class. The third class passengers had to use other trains.

The GER built a special set for the Hook Continental in 1904, subsequently replaced by LNER special sets in 1924 and 1938. All of these had first and second class but not third class. There were separate first and second class restaurant cars because there was only time for one sitting. The 1938 set was still in use when second class was abolished in 1956.

The GER also built a special set for the North Country Continental in 1906, which was first and third classes, and was the first train to allow third class passengers to dine in the restaurant car.

 

[Ben Rhydding]

Fourth class appears to have disappeared on the 1970s following legislative changes concerning the operation of Parliamentary Trains.

Fourth was the "Parliamentary" or "Gov" class. It was most likely the same accommodation as third but on a different train. It disappeared around 1870 when third class fares generally were reduced to 1d a mile. The 1844 Act had established the "Parliamentary" train once a day, stopping at every station at 1d a mile. This was exempt from the 5% railway passenger duty. Over the next quarter century, there was an increase in the provision of third class accommodation, often at a penny farthing per mile.

When third class was reduced to a penny a mile, the companies believed that it should be exempt from the 5% tax. The Board of Trade accepted this but responsibility then passed to the Inland Revenue who challenged it in the Court, arguing successfully that the exemption applied only to trains stopping at every station. The Government eventually responded with the Cheap Trains Act 1883 which exempted all fares not exceeding 1d a mile. This reduced significantly the amount of duty paid by the railway companies. In return for this concession, they had to offer workmen`s fares at certain times of day, generally at single fare for the return journey, effectively a halfpenny a mile, third class.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The Great Eastern Railway (GER) abolished second class, though I can't find the date.

Possibly as early as 1st January 1893. Various local newspapers in mid December 1892 all similarly reported that "...the Directors of the Great Eastern Railway Company have decided to abolish, from the beginning of next year, second class carriages (i.e. no longer issuing second class fares) on all their trains except those in the suburban district of London and the London and Harwich Continental trains..." Apparently not the first company to do so.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Possibly as early as 1st January 1893. Various local newspapers in mid December 1892 all similarly reported that "...the Directors of the Great Eastern Railway Company have decided to abolish, from the beginning of next year, second class carriages (i.e. no longer issuing second class fares) on all their trains except those in the suburban district of London and the London and Harwich Continental trains..." Apparently not the first company to do so.

The GE on its Liverpool St suburban services are said to have had coloured bands over doors to indicate class but it would appear from this that would only be two colours.

 

[stuving]

The GE on its Liverpool St suburban services are said to have had coloured bands over doors to indicate class but it would appear from this that would only be two colours.

... which were yellow for first and pale blue for second - no line for third.

In 1921 second class still existed on London suburban services (as well as continental trains). As a result, third class season tickets were not issued for stations with only such services, on the grounds that the second class season was still less than the aggregate cost of third class daily fares. Presumably second class went finally on grouping.

 

[Merle Haggard]

... which were yellow for first and pale blue for second - no line for third.

In 1921 second class still existed on London suburban services (as well as continental trains). As a result, third class season tickets were not issued for stations with only such services, on the grounds that the second class season was still less than the aggregate cost of third class daily fares. Presumably second class went finally on grouping.

Thanks - sorry but I hadn't noticed in Magdalia's post that 2nd class wasn't abolished on the Liverpool Street suburban lines.

 

[matchmaker]

... which were yellow for first and pale blue for second - no line for third.

In 1921 second class still existed on London suburban services (as well as continental trains). As a result, third class season tickets were not issued for stations with only such services, on the grounds that the second class season was still less than the aggregate cost of third class daily fares. Presumably second class went finally on grouping.

The LMS built second class stock for the North London Railway network well after grouping.