Standard gauge trains in Russian gauge land, and platform-train interface

[NCT]

Having travelled through Russian gauge land, Finland and the Baltics, you really do notice the more generous loading gauge.

When a standard gauge (and the ‘typical’ associated loading gauge) train operates in Russian gauge land, does it need dedicated platforms? Can a standard gauge train share an interlaced track and platforms in an otherwise Russian gauge environment? What current precedents are there?

Happy to be directed to an old thread if it exists.

Thanks all.

 

[stuu]

Don't most (all?) stations have incredibly low platforms anyway? So the question is moot

 

[Acathater]

Anecdotally the Russian gauge was deliberately chosen to to make interlaced track impossible

 

[jamesontheroad]

This is not a standard gauge example, but the discontinued Allegro between Helsinki and St. Petersburg bridged the minute difference between the 1,520mm Russian track and 1,524mm Finnish track, but it had doors with retractable steps that could accommodate 200 mm Finnish platforms, 550 mm Helsinki platforms and the ±1,000 mm platforms in St. Petersburg.

The RZD Strizh Moscow-Berlin Talgo had variable-gauge wheelsets, but I've no idea how it worked in terms of platforms...?

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Anecdotally the Russian gauge was deliberately chosen to to make interlaced track impossible

1435mm/1520mm dual gauge track is always interlaced. The difference is too small to allow the use of three rails.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Haparanda and Tornio have separate platforms and tracks for the two gauges. The international bridge has gauntleted track - mixed gauge is not possible because of the small difference in gauges.

Finland has aspirations to convert to standard gauge north of Oulu for defence reasons.

 

[StephenHunter]

What about Mockava in Lithuania, where the standard gauge service from Poland ends?

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Mockava has an island platform with a standard gauge track on one side and a broad gauge track on the other.

File:Verbindung von Wilna nach Krakau. Umsteigen in Mockava.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

 

[MarcVD]

I took the train to Moscow in 2011 and 2016. There was no special trackwork or precaution taken when arriving in Belaruskaya station. You could indeed notice the loading gauge difference because the restaurant car in the consist is a russian gauge one - it was added to the train at Brest, and the difference of profile with the other cars was indeed very noticeable. I'll try to dig up pictures if I can.

 

[superalbs]

The larger Ammendorf carriages used to be frequent visitors to Warsaw (as well as places like Berlin, Prague, etc).

A test train ran a few years ago with modern KVBZ carriages of the same size, however it was ultimately rejected by PKP due to clearances with high platforms being too tight. Here are some pictures.

 

[StephenHunter]

The larger Ammendorf carriages used to be frequent visitors to Warsaw (as well as places like Berlin, Prague, etc).

A test train ran a few years ago with modern KVBZ carriages of the same size, however it was ultimately rejected by PKP due to clearances with high platforms being too tight. Here are some pictures.

Yes, the Soviet Union regauged the lines in the Comecon area to fit their coaches and wagons.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

If and when Rail Baltica actually get further along, I wonder how it will interface with the existing 1520mm infrastructure as I believe it is being built to 1435mm?

 

[Cloud Strife]

If and when Rail Baltica actually get further along, I wonder how it will interface with the existing 1520mm infrastructure as I believe it is being built to 1435mm?

The simple answer: it won't. Either the track will use new corridors or existing ones, but there won't be any direct interfaces between Rail Baltica and the 1520mm infrastructure. The general long term goal is to convert the existing lines to 1435mm too, but this isn't really that much of a priority given that Estonia and Lithuania at least have detailed plans to simply destroy the network if they're threatened.

What may happen down the line if Rail Baltica needs additional traffic is to install automatic gauge changers (already tried and tested on the PL-UA/BY borders), but I think it's generally desirable for the Baltic States to keep the two networks separate.

 

[NCT]

If the Baltic states do (eventually) convert to 1435mm, what happens to the loading gauge? Would they keep the wider loading gauge for domestic operations, and require standard loading gauge 'foreign' trains to have extendable steps?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

If the Baltic states do (eventually) convert to 1435mm, what happens to the loading gauge? Would they keep the wider loading gauge for domestic operations, and require standard loading gauge 'foreign' trains to have extendable steps?

Do the Baltic states have any domestic rail manufacturing capability? Is it not likely that new trains will be procured from outwith the region, even if some assembly takes place locally? Surely new rolling stock will be developed from existing standard designs available from existing builders in Poland or Czechia, perhaps even Germany or Switzerland. Whatever the outcome it's hard to see any long-term future for the concept of Russian gauge track or trains in the region.

 

[NCT]

Do the Baltic states have any domestic rail manufacturing capability? Is it not likely that new trains will be procured from outwith the region, even if some assembly takes place locally? Surely new rolling stock will be developed from existing standard designs available from existing builders in Poland or Czechia, perhaps even Germany or Switzerland. Whatever the outcome it's hard to see any long-term future for the concept of Russian gauge track or trains in the region.

Modular train designs are easily adapted to different sizes. The Baltic states are already awash with Russian Gauge modern Stadler FLIRT and Skoda EMUs.

 

[edwin_m]

Yes, the Soviet Union regauged the lines in the Comecon area to fit their coaches and wagons.

I take it you're referring to loading gauge here, as I believe track gauge remained at 1435mm for the "satellite" states west of the USSR - give or take a few cross-border exceptions. The Baltics changed track gauge several times as they were invaded from one side or the other.

 

[AdamWW]

The simple answer: it won't. Either the track will use new corridors or existing ones, but there won't be any direct interfaces between Rail Baltica and the 1520mm infrastructure. The general long term goal is to convert the existing lines to 1435mm too, but this isn't really that much of a priority given that Estonia and Lithuania at least have detailed plans to simply destroy the network if they're threatened.

I'd have thought the defense justification for changing over to standard gauge would be to make it easier to have through running from the rest of Europe.

 

[StephenHunter]

I take it you're referring to loading gauge here, as I believe track gauge remained at 1435mm for the "satellite" states west of the USSR - give or take a few cross-border exceptions. The Baltics changed track gauge several times as they were invaded from one side or the other.

That's correct, the loading gauge.

They did build a single-track broad-gauge line from Ukraine deep into Poland for the steelworks at Katowice, still in use today.

Linia Hutnicza Szerokotorowa - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Broad Gauge Metallurgy Line (Polish: Linia Hutnicza Szerokotorowa, LHS) is the longest broad gauge railway line in Poland.

Except for this line and a few very short stretches near border crossings, Poland uses standard gauge. The single-track line runs for almost 400 km (250 mi) from the Polish-Ukrainian border crossing, just east of Hrubieszów, to Sławków Południowy (near Katowice). It is used only for freight, mainly iron ore (more than 50% of the volume of all goods transported), coal, petrochemical products, minerals and timber.[1] It is the westernmost direct connection to the broad-gauge network of the former Soviet Union.

 

[AdamWW]

That's correct, the loading gauge.

They did build a single-track broad-gauge line from Ukraine deep into Poland for the steelworks at Katowice, still in use today.

Also one into Slovakia, again for steelworks, though not as long as that I think.

 

[edwin_m]

I'd have thought the defense justification for changing over to standard gauge would be to make it easier to have through running from the rest of Europe.

That's part of the justification for Rail Baltica, though if the war turned hot I imagine a single connection wouldn't last long. When I was in Latvia in 2015 much of the rail traffic was east-west, linking Russia to ice-free ports, and they seemed to have no particular desire to start converting that. There was also the landbridge through Lithuania linking Kaliningrad to the rest of Russia. Things may of course have changed since then.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

Do the Baltic states have any domestic rail manufacturing capability? Is it not likely that new trains will be procured from outwith the region, even if some assembly takes place locally? Surely new rolling stock will be developed from existing standard designs available from existing builders in Poland or Czechia, perhaps even Germany or Switzerland. Whatever the outcome it's hard to see any long-term future for the concept of Russian gauge track or trains in the region.

It would seem to me that the fact that you are having to buy from suppliers outside the Baltic states wouldn't necessarily mean abandoning Russian Gauge. After all the gauge isn't that much different (85mm) and you also have other countries running on a similar gauge e.g. Finland and Ukraine so there is a market for such equipment. There might be other reasons for abandoning 1520mm such as the defense issue mentioned above.

 

[AdamWW]

It would seem to me that the fact that you are having to buy from suppliers outside the Baltic states wouldn't necessarily mean abandoning Russian Gauge. After all the gauge isn't that much different (85mm) and you also have other countries running on a similar gauge e.g. Finland and Ukraine so there is a market for such equipment. There might be other reasons for abandoning 1520mm such as the defense issue mentioned above.

I think there may be some confusion in this thread between track gauge and loading gauge.
As you point out, the difference between gauges is extremely small so it is presumably relatively easy to build stock to Russian gauge instead of standard gauge. Though testing and delivering is presumably more challenging.

What's less obvious (to me) is whether it's worth manufacturers taking advantage of the larger loading gauge. But as pointed out above, there are examples where this has indeed happened in recent times.

 

[Tinginys]

Regarding Baltics (Lithuania), there are no platforms that are actually shared by 1435 mm and 1520 mm tracks despite some existing sections of interlaced 1435mm and 1520mm tracks (notably between Šeštokai and Mockava, also Kaunas tunnel).

If and when Rail Baltica actually get further along, I wonder how it will interface with the existing 1520mm infrastructure as I believe it is being built to 1435mm?

It won't, just like the current existing platforms for 1435 mm are separate from 1520 mm platforms.

If the Baltic states do (eventually) convert to 1435mm, what happens to the loading gauge? Would they keep the wider loading gauge for domestic operations, and require standard loading gauge 'foreign' trains to have extendable steps?

This hasn't been discussed anywhere yet since the "plan" to convert 1520 tracks to 1435 mm is more of a very long term vision (or rather a dream) than an actual plan. It was mentioned here and there by some local politicians and academics who have no clue about railways and the cost that would be involved in such a conversion (billions and billions of Eur), but it was never seriously discussed from an actual technical perspective, not to mention any cost & benefit analysis. As things are now, it doesn't make economic sense to do that, and the narratives pushing for the need of conversion are often influenced by short term geopolitical events and emotions rather than any real economic or even national security justification. If I had to bet my money on it, I would bet we won't see any 1520 mm conversion to 1435 mm in Lithuania in the next 40 years or so at the very least. Possibly never. It's more likely we'll see some kind of variable gauge trains running on both 1435 and 1520 mm tracks. If the hypothetical conversion would happen, however, I don't see any rationale to have loading gauge different (higher) from that of Poland. It would create additional complications for little to no benefit. If anything, railways in all Baltic countries are massively underutilised and this won't change with Rail Baltica, so there is no point in having higher loading gauge or other capacity related features.

 

[The Pelican]

Do the Baltic states have any domestic rail manufacturing capability? Is it not likely that new trains will be procured from outwith the region, even if some assembly takes place locally? Surely new rolling stock will be developed from existing standard designs available from existing builders in Poland or Czechia, perhaps even Germany or Switzerland. Whatever the outcome it's hard to see any long-term future for the concept of Russian gauge track or trains in the region.

In the Communist era, just as Tatra in Prague built most of the trams and Ammendorf in the DDR built many of the carriages, RVR in Riga built a lot of the electric multiple units for export to other countries. Eric Hobsbawm's "Age of Extremes" has a good section on how the wealthier Eastern European countries ended up running a substantial trade surplas of manufactured goods to Russia during the later part of communism, the opposite to the original trade relationship!

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Ikarus buses from Hungary were another big export to the USSR.

 

[Amalie]

I’d presume that ordering a train with European loading gauge but Russian track gauge wouldn’t be much of a problem, albeit costing extra compared to being standard for both. After all, in the past, Russia ran night trains to Western Europe with carriages that could support bogies with either Russian or standard track gauge or a Talgo one that could switch between the two, but always with an otherwise standard European loading gauge.

However, making that train also use the full Russian loading gauge would mean a significantly more custom design.

 

[AdamWW]

I’d presume that ordering a train with European loading gauge but Russian track gauge wouldn’t be much of a problem, albeit costing extra compared to being standard for both. After all, in the past, Russia ran night trains to Western Europe with carriages that could support bogies with either Russian or standard track gauge

Such trains still run to Ukraine and Moldova.

 

[StephenHunter]

Ikarus buses from Hungary were another big export to the USSR.

Poland got them too. One served as a heritage bus connection for the narrow gauge Grójec Line in Warsaw from the city centre when I used it in 2023.

 

[riceuten]

I believe there was a standard gauge track all the way to Kaliningrad before 2012 - EGTRE stated

Border Crossings: Poland - Russia - Enthusiast's Guide to Travelling the Railways of Europe

Braniewo PKP - Mamonowo RŽD (- Kaliningrad)​

[D] Two parallel single-tracks of different gauge, [see Unusual Lines entry RU20/1 for details of separate approach routes to Kaliningrad]. The 1435mm gauge line was used by a seasonal Berlin – Gdynia – Kaliningrad passenger service until it ceased running during 2012 and RŽD 1520mm gauge track in Poland ends at Transhipment sidings near Wielkie Wieżno as August 2013 images show it lifted by the closed station at Kurowo Braniewskie. Cross border freight was seen running on both gauges in July 2013.

RŽD works all BG cross border freight, and on the SG, prior to the 2012 passenger closure PKP worked to Mamonowo RŽD, with a RŽD standard gauge M62 diesel to and from Kaliningrad. Limited charters were known to have run after that date using PKP SM42's through to Kaliningrad, but what worked SG wagon freight in Russia is not known. There is no gauge changer at Braniewo, any transhipment is on parallel sidings and as at March 2022 PKP advised an average of 3 pairs of trains per day ran on the broad gauge and 2 pairs on the standard, but by January 2023 PKP quote all cross border traffic is on the broad gauge.

A Test passenger service bookable by the public between Kaliningrad and Gdynia with a change of train at Braniewo, [i.e. the RŽD DMU worked across the Border on the Broad Gauge] ran on 5 January 2018. Press coverage suggested this was a trial for cross border trains during the Football World Cup in June 2018 [as Kaliningrad hosted some Group games] but nothing materialised.

Maybe it still exists ?