How did Penalty fares/travelling without a ticket work pre 1949

[Gareth1990]

Say I boarded a train in the late 20/early 30’s and I refused to show my ticket or pay my fare, what would happen? Would the police be called, I’m guessing staff would be a lot more willing to use force to get me off the train than nowadays…

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Probably would end up being summoned to court for travelling on the railway with intent to avoid paying the fare. Typical fine was perhaps ~ £2. Also, likely named and shamed in the local press.

 

[The exile]

No such thing as a penalty fare, of course.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

No such thing as a penalty fare, of course.

Indeed. Also, £2 was, in the 1920s, roughly half of a workman's wage for the week, so not an inconsiderable amount at the time.

 

[hexagon789]

Wasn't it also possible to end up "in quod"?

While it may be a misrepresentation of the period, but reading books such as those by PG Woodhouse, I formed the impression that magistrates' at least were much more inclined to dish out short custodial sentences for petty offences in addition to fines - say of 7, 14 or 28 days.

Or is that something that just fits the storyline, but isn't necessarily accurate of the period?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Imprisonment was certainly a possibility for anyone who refused to pay the fine imposed. Custodial sentences of one week, a fortnight or even a month in prison weren't uncommon back then.

 

[Crithylum]

RoRA 1889?

I don’t think they had SJPNs back then to screw it up.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

RoRA 1889?

Yes, part of Section 5 of the 1889 Regulation of Railways Act, which deals with the production of a ticket upon demand and the offence of refusing so to do, with the whole penalty imposed (if a fine) going to the Exchequer, and not the railway companies.

No such thing as a penalty fare, of course.

Think they were introduced by legislation in or around 1989.

 

[contrex]

This puts me in mind of CEM Joad, a famous 'brainy bloke on the BBC' in the 1930s and 1940s. He liked to be called 'Professor Joad' although he never was one. In 1948 he was caught travelling from Waterloo to Salisbury without a ticket, hoping to short-fare to Exeter. He was fined £2 and ordered to pay 25 guineas costs, in total £28.5.0d, £28.25 in new money. Apparently he'd been doing it habitually for some time and the railway had set a trap for him. It made headlines, he was sacked from the BBC, and lost the chance of a peerage. What cost £28.25 in 1948 would cost £913.66 in May 2026, according to the Bank of England.

 

[Gloster]

This puts me in mind of CEM Joad, a famous 'brainy bloke on the BBC' in the 1930s and 1940s. He liked to be called 'Professor Joad' although he never was one. In 1948 he was caught travelling from Waterloo to Salisbury without a ticket, hoping to short-fare to Exeter. He was fined £2 and ordered to pay 25 guineas costs, in total £27.5.0d, £27.25 in new money. Apparently he'd been doing it habitually for some time and the railway had set a trap for him. It made headlines, he was sacked from the BBC, and lost the chance of a peerage.

The following came my father who had it from my uncle who had it from a friend in the railway’s ticketing unit at the time.

Joad had done this trick on a number of occasions: buy a ticket from a station well down the line to Exeter, but travel from much nearer London. On this occasion Joad was in the restaurant car and the ticket checkers quietly got the car’s staff to note exactly at what stage of the journey they had seen him there. When he tried to get through the barrier they nabbed him and took him to court. He tried to claim it was all confusion between himself and his secretary, but the magistrates wouldn’t have it. Whether they disliked him - he was very unpopular with certain strata of society - I don’t know, but the evidence was clear.

He also reportedly (I haven’t confirmed the details) did something similar with the Up Brighton Belle, where tickets were checked before boarding but there was no check on leaving the train at Victoria. He would get a local to Haywards Heath and disappear into the gents there, only emerging when the Belle was in the platform.

 

[oldman]

Wasn't it also possible to end up "in quod"?

While it may be a misrepresentation of the period, but reading books such as those by PG Woodhouse, I formed the impression that magistrates' at least were much more inclined to dish out short custodial sentences for petty offences in addition to fines - say of 7, 14 or 28 days.

Or is that something that just fits the storyline, but isn't necessarily accurate of the period?

Courts often specified a particular term of imprisonment as the alternative to a fine. My uncle was done for careless driving in 1925 and got a 10 shillings fine or 10 days. Actual imprisonment would almost certainly have cost him his job.

 

[Taunton]

Joad had done this trick on a number of occasions: buy a ticket from a station well down the line to Exeter, but travel from much nearer London. On this occasion Joad was in the restaurant car and the ticket checkers quietly got the car’s staff to note exactly at what stage of the journey they had seen him there.

That fits in with how trains like the Atlantic Coast Express were run, there was always a Travelling Ticket Inspector whose 'beat' was Salisbury to Exeter, checking everybody in the various portions that were going to be split up at Exeter, or detached before there, was sat in the right carriage, the main aim of the exercise. As a result, they didn't bother checking tickets on the Waterloo to Salisbury leg. As the collector had to come back, the return inspection was always on that same leg as well.

 

[hexagon789]

Courts often specified a particular term of imprisonment as the alternative to a fine. My uncle was done for careless driving in 1925 and got a 10 shillings fine or 10 days. Actual imprisonment would almost certainly have cost him his job.

So it was either/or rather than in addition.

 

[30907]

I don't know about pre WW2 but, despite barrier checks which were often pretty perfunctory there was plenty of short-faring and/or "paying at the other end" when

If you were checked on board an excess fare would routinely be collected and a handwritten ticket torn off the TTI's pad. At local stations I recall money being taken, not sure tickets were also issued....

For the avoidance of doubt I had a season ticket (as did most regulars).

 

[Gareth1990]

So there was no way for Railway companies to deal with ticketless travel in-house? If you were caught a trip to the magistrate’s was guaranteed?

 

[6Gman]

I doubt settlements were offered and browsing newspapers of the 1920s and 1940s I find numerous examples of prosecutions - standard fine seemed to be £1 (often, with costs).

Process seemed to be ticket inspector } stationmaster } railway police } magistrates' court.

Somewhat amusingly short-faring identified by claims to have boarded at a barriered station crop up quite frequently. (Travelling Birmingham to Gloucester with a Cheltenham-Gloucester ticket cropped up more than once.) As well as "I had a ticket but I lost it" and "I thought my brother had bought me a ticket but it seems not" together with offers tp ay in full when challenged! Little changes.

Not sure if the amount of time devoted to each case was because they were rare or whether they were meant to deter other potential offenders.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Perhaps worth pointing out that until recently (or so it seems to me, but I'm old) guards on most trains (pay-trains obviously excepted) were purely operational staff and did not carry out revenue duties such as ticket examination. Travelling ticket collectors (TTI) were the staff that did it.

The locally-based TTI I knew when working at a station dealt with irregularities very firmly. If you thought hiding in a train lavatory and leaving the door unlocked (ie showing 'vacant' suggesting being unoccupied) was a good idea then you might find yourself hit by a suddenly- and forcefully-opened door, for instance.

Station blockades were common to catch out people short-faring. In the days before CCTV and body cams I've seen some interesting actions by the accompanying BT constables encountering wilful avoidance of the barrier staff...

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Perhaps worth pointing out that until recently...

This being some later (more recent) timeframe than what would have probably happened in the late 20s/early 30s, presumably?

 

[Gloster]

Once corridors coaches were fairly common the travelling ticket inspectors would work their way through the trains and check tickets. Anybody who wouldn’t pay up or was awkward would likely find that the examiners were not to be trifled with and there are plenty of examples of people being thrown off, sometimes at minor stations where getting home was going to be difficult: the railway might not get the money, but they would cause you twice the inconvenience you caused it. There was also the general likelihood that other passengers would often put a sort of peer pressure on non-payers.

 

[Merle Haggard]

This being some later (more recent) timeframe than what would have probably happened in the late 20s/early 30s, presumably?

What I was getting at was that the passenger guard had always been a purely operational role through the history of the railways until comparatively recentl.. Conductor guards are a very recent innovation.
Of course, TTIs could only work on trains formed of gangwayed coaches; Ticket (examination) Platforms were another method to check tickets (but would seem to have limitations in spotting short-faring) and there seems to have been a lot of them, not always accurately recorded on historic railway atlases aimed at the enthusiast.

 

[Bald Rick]

Courts often specified a particular term of imprisonment as the alternative to a fine. My uncle was done for careless driving in 1925 and got a 10 shillings fine or 10 days. Actual imprisonment would almost certainly have cost him his job.

So it was either/or rather than in addition.

Or sometimes “7 days without the option” (Bertie Wooster had this threatened more than once!)

 

[WesternLancer]

The following came my father who had it from my uncle who had it from a friend in the railway’s ticketing unit at the time.

Joad had done this trick on a number of occasions: buy a ticket from a station well down the line to Exeter, but travel from much nearer London. On this occasion Joad was in the restaurant car and the ticket checkers quietly got the car’s staff to note exactly at what stage of the journey they had seen him there. When he tried to get through the barrier they nabbed him and took him to court. He tried to claim it was all confusion between himself and his secretary, but the magistrates wouldn’t have it. Whether they disliked him - he was very unpopular with certain strata of society - I don’t know, but the evidence was clear.

He also reportedly (I haven’t confirmed the details) did something similar with the Up Brighton Belle, where tickets were checked before boarding but there was no check on leaving the train at Victoria. He would get a local to Haywards Heath and disappear into the gents there, only emerging when the Belle was in the platform.

How did he get through the barrier check at his boarding station?

 

[Gloster]

How did he get through the barrier check at his boarding station?

That I do not know, but there were plenty of ways: platform ticket, short journey in from a nearby station, short fare, etc.

 

[Rescars]

Or sometimes “7 days without the option” (Bertie Wooster had this threatened more than once!)

As a further insight into the style of magistrates and execution of the law in times past, Hamilton Ellis claims that Archibald Sturrock (of GNR steam tender fame), having retired early, lived to a great age in the style of a country gentleman and "fulfilled the office of magistrate with decorous gusto". Apparently he "boasted that he continued to sit on the Bench until he was so deaf that he could hear neither the policemen's charges nor the delinquents' excuses"!

 

[MarlowDonkey]

That I do not know, but there were plenty of ways: platform ticket, short journey in from a nearby station, short fare, etc.

Travelling in First Class with a Third Class ticket as well.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Perhaps worth pointing out that until recently (or so it seems to me, but I'm old) guards on most trains (pay-trains obviously excepted) were purely operational staff and did not carry out revenue duties such as ticket examination. Travelling ticket collectors (TTI) were the staff that did it.

The locally-based TTI I knew when working at a station dealt with irregularities very firmly. If you thought hiding in a train lavatory and leaving the door unlocked (ie showing 'vacant' suggesting being unoccupied) was a good idea then you might find yourself hit by a suddenly- and forcefully-opened door, for instance.

Station blockades were common to catch out people short-faring. In the days before CCTV and body cams I've seen some interesting actions by the accompanying BT constables encountering wilful avoidance of the barrier staff...

Some TTI's were issued with screwdrivers to assist in "opening up" locked toilet doors after suitable warnings issues to those inside. Seems there was some keeness on the part of some staff !

 

[The exile]

Some TTI's were issued with screwdrivers to assist in "opening up" locked toilet doors after suitable warnings issues to those inside. Seems there was some keeness on the part of some staff !

Surely the guard would have to have some device for rescuing 3 old ladies when necessary!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Surely the guard would have to have some device for rescuing 3 old ladies when necessary!

On board tool box (back in the day) , carried an emergency axe

 

[didcotdean]

Joad wrote in a book in 1937 (Testament of Joad) that:

"I cheat the railway company whenever I can, returning on the next day with a cheap day return ticket, or alleging when I arrive ticketless at a station that I entered the train nearer to it than was in fact the case."

So maybe it was surprising it took so long to be caught or at least to be prosecuted.

He also confessed to habitually removing with a screwdriver such signs as "Penalty for improper use £2" .

 

[WesternLancer]

Joad wrote in a book in 1937 (Testament of Joad) that:

"I cheat the railway company whenever I can, returning on the next day with a cheap day return ticket, or alleging when I arrive ticketless at a station that I entered the train nearer to it than was in fact the case."

So maybe it was surprising it took so long to be caught or at least to be prosecuted.

He also confessed to habitually removing with a screwdriver such signs as "Penalty for improper use £2" .

Rather incriminating himself there…

I don’t think this forum would have recommended that. Even 6 months
after the incident

I assume he therefore had some sort of ‘disorder’ if that’s what we’d call it now