Near miss with an access ramp at Norwood Junction station (RAIB)

[Recessio]

The other option unless someone hasn’t mentioned it is to have the the door locked out by t key so even the driver can’t close it until it’s been manually released. Class 80x work this way.

That seems a remarkably sensible solution, I'm surprised it isn't implemented more widely already?

 

[Bikeman78]

Good. Fully support this.

An emergency is a clear exception.

Otherwise, wait until finished driving, or pull over to make the call, then set back off again.

This should apply to all drivers. It won't be popular though. See the hatred aimed at Cycling Mikey. I'm genuinely astonished about how obsessed people are with their mobiles.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2026 ==

I think I've read some counter-evidence to this. During a phonecall, you tend to transfer yourself mentally to the location of the person you're talking to, and away from your actual location, meaning your driving becomes automatic not attentive. When talking to a passenger, that person is alongside you so your attention doesn't transfer away in the same manner.

That's interesting. I must say that I find a phone call far more distracting than a conversation with people in the vehicle. Even kids in the back. I usually set my phone to silent whilst driving.

 

[Horizon22]

That seems a remarkably sensible solution, I'm surprised it isn't implemented more widely already?

You could always do it the way OBS's do it on Southern 377s, and put the key in at the relevant door panel that prevents the driver closing the doors. In the early days of the introduction of the role - following the guards change and bitter dispute - there were a lot of "could the OBS contact the driver" announcements as they'd left it in by mistake but as the role has bedded in this has changed.

Alternatively a lot of stock has a "long press" functionality on the door button which could be adapted.

 

[35B]

This should apply to all drivers. It won't be popular though. See the hatred aimed at Cycling Mikey. I'm genuinely astonished about how obsessed people are with their mobiles.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2026 ==


That's interesting. I must say that I find a phone call far more distracting than a conversation with people in the vehicle. Even kids in the back. I usually set my phone to silent whilst driving.

Whereas I don't notice a difference between a phone call and a conversation for the same nature of conversation. There are far greater distractions in a modern car than hands free phone use, and there have been times where I have made calls entirely safely that have stopped me from being distracted about something in the back of my mind.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Alternatively a lot of stock has a "long press" functionality on the door button which could be adapted.

.... until the general public beceome aware of what that can do, and use it for their own purposes

 

[357]

.... until the general public beceome aware of what that can do, and use it for their own purposes

All the stock I've signed with this feature only disable the auto-close when activated, not the driver close

 

[Horizon22]

.... until the general public beceome aware of what that can do, and use it for their own purposes

Well sure I did think that was a concern, but then again we also have videos of the public getting into train cabs…

There’s a fine line between easy to use for staff and open to abuse.

 

[Thebaz]

At the school my children attend they have just introduced a signal-blocking pouch that all kids have to place their phone in at the beginning of the school day. They can only unlock it at a station on their way out at the end day. Why could something like this not be introduced? Pouches cost about £15 and obviously the installation of equipment to unlock the pouches is going to have some sort of cost involved, but it looks to be a relatively cheap solution to stop people using their phones when they shouldn't be. There could even be an unlocking station in the cab to be used only in emergency, which send a signal if it's been used.

 

[Wolfie]

At the school my children attend they have just introduced a signal-blocking pouch that all kids have to place their phone in at the beginning of the school day. They can only unlock it at a station on their way out at the end day. Why could something like this not be introduced? Pouches cost about £15 and obviously the installation of equipment to unlock the pouches is going to have some sort of cost involved, but it looks to be a relatively cheap solution to stop people using their phones when they shouldn't be. There could even be an unlocking station in the cab to be used only in emergency, which send a signal if it's been used.

I worked my whole career in "national security". Years ago we used to have such pouches but they were withdrawn as less than fully effective. Instead secure lockers outside the sensitive area were used.

 

[Dave W]

I worked my whole career in "national security". Years ago we used to have such pouches but they were withdrawn as less than fully effective. Instead secure lockers outside the sensitive area were used.

Corrr I remember those parts of certain buildings set just back from the Thames...! In some areas it was pouch AND locker. Then some scary looking locked doors. I once dutifully put my phone in a plastic tub at the door of a briefing only to get a fearsome kicking off a well dressed bloke in a beret because I was still wearing my (then quite novel) smart watch.

Happy days (sort of)!

 

[Thebaz]

I worked my whole career in "national security". Years ago we used to have such pouches but they were withdrawn as less than fully effective. Instead secure lockers outside the sensitive area were used.

Well, yes that's another simple option. Put your phone in your locker before you start your shift.

 

[greatkingrat]

Well, yes that's another simple option. Put your phone in your locker before you start your shift.

Not practical if you have your break at a different location to your home depot.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Well, yes that's another simple option. Put your phone in your locker before you start your shift.

I’m a Driver who keeps their phone off whilst in the cab as per policy and would never dream of using it whilst at the controls of a train.
I would never leave it in my locker, it will always be switched off in my trouser pocket. Reason being, if something unpleasant happens, I know it’s close to hand and on my person.
The M1 rule book module surrounding emergency protection changed in June, the ‘second best’ option (after GSMR in the leading cab) for contacting the Signaller after an incident is listed as ‘any other means of direct communication available from the driving cab if you cannot make a REC’. The position that being forced to leave my mobile phone in a locker for a ten hour shift could put me and most Drivers in as someone who can be trusted not to use it inappropriately is unacceptable.
Bearing in mind I’m talking about the worst case scenario here, not to mention the many times a mobile phone has been useful to me whilst carrying out my duties.

 

[Horizon22]

Well, yes that's another simple option. Put your phone in your locker before you start your shift.

Not useful if you are regularly at multiple locations, such as train crew. Also probably for a different thread, but they are a primary form of communication - especially in emergencies - for many people and just being absent for 8-10 hours arguably isn't going to cut it. Bit different to schools where there's still an office and other adults who can relay messages in such scenarios.

The vast majority of drivers know this would be a stupid thing to do and is clearly drilled into them - just like drugs & alcohol.

 

[Wolfie]

Not practical if you have your break at a different location to your home depot.

Fair point well made.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2026 ==

Not useful if you are regularly at multiple locations, such as train crew. Also probably for a different thread, but they are a primary form of communication - especially in emergencies - for many people and just being absent for 8-10 hours arguably isn't going to cut it. Bit different to schools where there's still an office and other adults who can relay messages in such scenarios.

The vast majority of drivers know this would be a stupid thing to do and is clearly drilled into them - just like drugs & alcohol.

Indeed. What we are looking at here is how to address a hopefully very small irresponsible minority.

 

[cool110]

They can only unlock it at a station on their way out at the end day.

Not exactly, they're the same as security tags in shops, you just need a simple magnet to release them.

 

[L3sterSantos]

I really don't think we need to treat drivers like children and start mandating they hand in their phones and keeped them in locked pouches. Where is the trust? These are people with a large deal of responsiblity and if they can't be trusted to not use their phones while at the wheel, I think it raises a lot more serious questions. We don't need to undermine drivers by locking away their phones so they don't get distracted. I think any adult that is suitable of this job can handle that themselves. The correct way to manage this issue is through enforcement

I can see it now, droves of drivers lining up in the playground to have their pouches locked before they book on. This is not a practical way to run a railway..

Mind you, if the driver got caught this time, it wouldn't surprise me if they were a habitual user of their phone at the wheel. I think we can safely say that nothing ever went wrong? Perhaps they were even used to driving while 'distracted' since there's a chance they did it often. Additionally, the RAIB were not able to identify active use of the phone like sending a text message, playing a game, etc. They were on a phone call. How different is that from being bombarded with calls from control and conversations with the signaller? The report is not very convincing that this incident would have not taken place had the phone not been a factor. I am personally not convinced had their phone been off this incident would not have taken place. Multiple factors failed to allow this to take place. The doors of that train should have never been able to close with a ramp attached, that's a major failing.

 

[PGAT]

Mind you, if the driver got caught this time, it wouldn't surprise me if they were a habitual user of their phone at the wheel. I think we can safely say that nothing ever went wrong?

The driver had previously passed a signal at danger and failed to stop at a station in time for the same reasons.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

At the school my children attend they have just introduced a signal-blocking pouch that all kids have to place their phone in at the beginning of the school day. They can only unlock it at a station on their way out at the end day. Why could something like this not be introduced? Pouches cost about £15 and obviously the installation of equipment to unlock the pouches is going to have some sort of cost involved, but it looks to be a relatively cheap solution to stop people using their phones when they shouldn't be. There could even be an unlocking station in the cab to be used only in emergency, which send a signal if it's been used.

We often joke that we get treated like children and not trusted but in this instance, you quite literally want to treat us like school children. Aside from it being quite insulting to majority of professional train drivers, it is not practical to keep our phones in lockers at base.

a) We drive a train from A to B and get a 2 hour break. We do not have access to our phones during our break???

b) There are multiple reasons why we may need to use our mobiles in the course of our duties. E.g. to talk to the Signaller or Yard Supervisor in depots that GSMR is not used. E.g. 2. During delays, contacting resources or control when you’re away from a train (and don’t have access to GSMR)

 

[Horizon22]

I can see it now, droves of drivers lining up in the playground to have their pouches locked before they book on. This is not a practical way to run a railway..

I can't, only because I envisage they'd be on strike long before any policy actually came to fruition so no booking on

 

[Lockwood]

The driving policy at my day job, which covers use of private vehicle for travelling to client sites or the office, does not want use of mobile phones at all and also discourages the distraction of talking to any passenger in the car.

I think that that is a policy that is entirely disregarded!


Ramps - as asked up thread, if the 377 and 378 ramps are "near enough" the same, why not retrofit mods to the 377 ramps that are used in 378-land to help deal with this error?

 

[Surreytraveller]

We often joke that we get treated like children and not trusted but in this instance, you quite literally want to treat us like school children. Aside from it being quite insulting to majority of professional train drivers, it is not practical to keep our phones in lockers at base.

a) We drive a train from A to B and get a 2 hour break. We do not have access to our phones during our break???

b) There are multiple reasons why we may need to use our mobiles in the course of our duties. E.g. to talk to the Signaller or Yard Supervisor in depots that GSMR is not used. E.g. 2. During delays, contacting resources or control when you’re away from a train (and don’t have access to GSMR)

Don't forget you'll also need a mobile when dealing with faults and failures. There's also the times when your unit is auxed off do to an emergency isolation, and the signaller will need to ring your mobile to tell you when you can switch your train back on

 

[Sheridan]

I really don't think we need to treat drivers like children and start mandating they hand in their phones and keeped them in locked pouches. Where is the trust? These are people with a large deal of responsiblity and if they can't be trusted to not use their phones while at the wheel, I think it raises a lot more serious questions. We don't need to undermine drivers by locking away their phones so they don't get distracted. I think any adult that is suitable of this job can handle that themselves. The correct way to manage this issue is through enforcement

I can see it now, droves of drivers lining up in the playground to have their pouches locked before they book on. This is not a practical way to run a railway..

Mind you, if the driver got caught this time, it wouldn't surprise me if they were a habitual user of their phone at the wheel. I think we can safely say that nothing ever went wrong? Perhaps they were even used to driving while 'distracted' since there's a chance they did it often. Additionally, the RAIB were not able to identify active use of the phone like sending a text message, playing a game, etc. They were on a phone call. How different is that from being bombarded with calls from control and conversations with the signaller? The report is not very convincing that this incident would have not taken place had the phone not been a factor. I am personally not convinced had their phone been off this incident would not have taken place. Multiple factors failed to allow this to take place. The doors of that train should have never been able to close with a ramp attached, that's a major failing.

Regarding the point about being bombarded with calls from control and the signaller - there aren’t many circumstances where that would happen on the move, but if it did, then any professional driver would surely choose to stop the train and carry on those conversations at a stand. Whereas the driver in this incident was actively choosing to use their personal phone when they knew it was prohibited and should have known that it was likely to increase their chance of having an incident of some sort.

Edited to add: I agree drivers shouldn’t need to lock away their phones. I’m sure the vast majority understand the importance of having them turned off and ideally out of reach.

 

[43096]

Edited to add: I agree drivers shouldn’t need to lock away their phones. I’m sure the vast majority understand the importance of having them turned off and ideally out of reach.

Yet the following appears in the RAIB report into the Norwood Jct incident:

In 2024, RSSB published the report from an updated research programme, T1280 ‘Evaluating the effectiveness of control measures for unauthorised presence of mobile smart devices within the driving cab’. Updated surveys revealed nearly 40% of drivers did not think they would be caught using a mobile device while driving, and 18% of drivers thought mobile devices do not affect performance.

That is a substantial minority who don’t get it.

 

[Thebaz]

We often joke that we get treated like children and not trusted but in this instance, you quite literally want to treat us like school children. Aside from it being quite insulting to majority of professional train drivers, it is not practical to keep our phones in lockers at base.

a) We drive a train from A to B and get a 2 hour break. We do not have access to our phones during our break???

b) There are multiple reasons why we may need to use our mobiles in the course of our duties. E.g. to talk to the Signaller or Yard Supervisor in depots that GSMR is not used. E.g. 2. During delays, contacting resources or control when you’re away from a train (and don’t have access to GSMR)

My suggestion was very basic and not clearly thought-through, but still a disappointing but predictable response about 'being treated like children'. Instead of bristling at the idea of handing in your phone, go and talk to those colleagues of yours who think that it's okay to break these rules and maybe we won't be having this discussion again.

Anyway what do you suggest? I've read nothing on this thread from drivers suggesting ways this could be tackled.

Not practical if you have your break at a different location to your home depot.

Not useful if you are regularly at multiple locations, such as train crew. Also probably for a different thread, but they are a primary form of communication - especially in emergencies - for many people and just being absent for 8-10 hours arguably isn't going to cut it. Bit different to schools where there's still an office and other adults who can relay messages in such scenarios.

Don't forget you'll also need a mobile when dealing with faults and failures. There's also the times when your unit is auxed off do to an emergency isolation, and the signaller will need to ring your mobile to tell you when you can switch your train back on

Fair points on the practicality, I was not completely aware of the structure of a driver's day. But I have to ask, do you not have company-issue mobiles that you can bring with you into the cab? If not I am absolutely amazed that the railway would insist you conduct safety-critical, or in fact any business on your personal mobile.

The vast majority of drivers know this would be a stupid thing to do and is clearly drilled into them - just like drugs & alcohol.

And how many of those drivers who know it's a stupid thing to do, and don't do it themselves would turn a blind eye or tolerate others doing it. How many would actually speak up? I bet not many.

Yet the following appears in the RAIB report into the Norwood Jct incident:

"In 2024, RSSB published the report from an updated research programme, T1280 ‘Evaluating the effectiveness of control measures for unauthorised presence of mobile smart devices within the driving cab’. Updated surveys revealed nearly 40% of drivers did not think they would be caught using a mobile device while driving, and 18% of drivers thought mobile devices do not affect performance."

That is a substantial minority who don’t get it.

Quite.

I really don't think we need to treat drivers like children and start mandating they hand in their phones and keeped them in locked pouches. Where is the trust? These are people with a large deal of responsiblity and if they can't be trusted to not use their phones while at the wheel, I think it raises a lot more serious questions. We don't need to undermine drivers by locking away their phones so they don't get distracted. I think any adult that is suitable of this job can handle that themselves. The correct way to manage this issue is through enforcement

Where is the trust you ask? Busy being abused by the looks of it. 'Enforcement' clearly doesn't work as others have attested, unless maybe it is made law. if 40% of drivers think they can get away with it then I would say there is significant problem.

they'd be on strike long before any policy actually came to fruition so no booking on

When the public hear that 40% of drivers think it's okay to conduct personal calls whilst driving, how well do you think that strike will go down?

 

[bcarmicle]

When the public hear that 40% of drivers think it's okay to conduct personal calls whilst driving, how well do you think that strike will go down?

I agree with most of your post, but this is incorrect - 40% think they wouldn't be detected if they did, not that it's okay to actually do it.

 

[Mattplans]

When the public hear that 40% of drivers think it's okay to conduct personal calls whilst driving, how well do you think that strike will go down?

That is a substantial minority who don’t get it.

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding something here:

the report says

118 In 2024, RSSB published the report from an updated research programme, T1280 ‘Evaluating the effectiveness of control measures for unauthorised presence of mobile smart devices within the driving cab’. Updated surveys revealed nearly 40% of drivers did not think they would be caught using a mobile device while driving, and 18% of drivers thought mobile devices do not affect performance. The report also shows that drivers and managers do not want any form of in- cab monitoring, instead preferring to influence behaviour through education.

it says that some drivers do not think they would be caught using a mobile device while driving, not that they think it is okay. If the survey results showed that 40% of Britons thought they could get away with murder, that doesn't mean that 40% 'think it's okay' to murder someone.

What can be understood from this is an understanding of how effective drivers think enforcement of policies in the workplace is. The survey (that is quoted in the RAIB report) does not ask whether drivers think it is okay. Similarly, the same can be applied for the latter, 18% of drivers think using a phone does not affect performance. It does not say that they would.

 

[Horizon22]

And how many of those drivers who know it's a stupid thing to do, and don't do it themselves would turn a blind eye or tolerate others doing it. How many would actually speak up? I bet not many.

Considering the vast majority of the time a driver is in the cab alone, there would be nothing to turn a “blind eye” to theoretically because people simply wouldn’t know. This is an unknowable question. When they do have other people in the cab (cab rides, assessments etc.) they would either not use their phone as they wouldn’t anyway or wouldn’t be stupid enough to whip their phone out while others are around.

 

[172007]

Interesting experiment for anyone that can be bothered. Find an overbridge in the sticks with little traffic which has the sun kn their back. Take a zoomed in photo of each trains driver and review the results. I am amazed the ORR etc have not done this or tested the new cameras the police use to see how many drivers do use their phones on the move.

 

[Krokodil]

Interesting experiment for anyone that can be bothered. Find an overbridge in the sticks with little traffic which has the sun kn their back. Take a zoomed in photo of each trains driver and review the results. I am amazed the ORR etc have not done this or tested the new cameras the police use to see how many drivers do use their phones on the move.

You're not going to catch much that way, of the small proportion who might do it at some point, they wouldn't be on the phone all day, every day.

Much more effective for DTMs to conduct spot checks at handover points by asking the driver to demonstrate that their device is switched off. Word gets around and people are less likely to risk it.