Experiences of service recovery (or lack of) on GTR Great Northern

[tatitiliti]

Kings Lynn has 2 platforms passed for passenger trains.


Adding more platforms requires signalling alterations that are very expensive.

I’ve departed King’s Lynn from platform 3 on a passenger service previously, albeit on a 4-car 387.

You could feasibly have three platforms in regular operation for passenger services by May 2027 though, no? And surely this would be sufficient for 70-minute turnarounds?

 

[RailwayRookie]

I’ve departed King’s Lynn from platform 3 on a passenger service previously, albeit on a 4-car 387

'Platform 3' or Carriage siding number 1 as it is officially, is 26m too short to hold an 8 car 387/379. And that's without additional tolerance for signalling etc.

Its currently designated as a sidingin so probably shouldnt have passengers in it but who knows when or if the designation changed.

The amount if time, effort and money it would take to put a 3rd or even 4th platform at lynn it would probably be more effective to double track the two single line sections on the Fen line and just up the trains per hour.

The turnaround times arent the problem if its running well. And when it's not running well its the single lines that put the final nail in the coffin for recovery.

 

[tatitiliti]

'Platform 3' or Carriage siding number 1 as it is officially, is 26m too short to hold an 8 car 387/379. And that's without additional tolerance for signalling etc.

Its currently designated as a sidingin so probably shouldnt have passengers in it but who knows when or if the designation changed.

The amount if time, effort and money it would take to put a 3rd or even 4th platform at lynn it would probably be more effective to double track the two single line sections on the Fen line and just up the trains per hour.

The turnaround times arent the problem if its running well. And when it's not running well its the single lines that put the final nail in the coffin for recovery.

Yeah I’ve only ever left Kings Lynn on Platform 3 once in a 4-car formation - I’ve seen 8-car formations there where the cab and 1&2 are off the end of the platform!

I think two-track between Downham and Littleport is just impractical (it’s expensive enough to constantly maintain that stretch with several bridges (through what is almost a peat bog).

However, two-tracking between Watlington and Lynn would likely be a lot more feasible and offer more timetable benefits. Doubt it will ever happen though…

 

[bramling]

It has been a siding for many years. Whilst it may be possible for passenger trains to use it under special arrangements, it is not possible for it to be planned for normal passenger use without signalling modifications. At the very least main aspects required for both incoming and outgoing moves, and full facing point locking on all points. There’s also the issue of whether it could hold an 8-car train.

2 platforms is adequate for the hourly off-peak service. However it won’t really help for peak services, which are some of the worst performers (esp evening peak and at end of morning peak). It might be possible to make use of the stabling siding to improve upon this situation.

Essentially the infrastructure can’t really support a reliable 2tph to Kings Lynn with the current level of fragility. The best IMO that can be hoped for is to make the off-peak service more robust.

 

[MikeWM]

In the spirit of the thread title, it has been interesting to see what has run since the line reopened to the south.

- Between 1700 and 2100, GA have run just over 50% of what they should normally run - according to RTT, 4 to Liverpool Street out of 8 timetabled, 2 to Stansted out of 3.

- GN have run about 20% - all the fasts are pulled, fair enough, but they've also only managed to run 3 stoppers out of 7 timetabled.

- Thameslink aren't running at all, so 0% of their 6 services have run.

So between GN and Thameslink, that's below 15% recovery of the service from GTR (3/21), compared with GA who have recovered to better than 50% (6/11). Which is pretty much what we'd have expected given the last few years worth of experience, but it's still very poor.

 

[MikeWM]

Looks like the block has been lifted, though Traksy is still showing 1T08 stuck where it has been all day.

XC 1L52 has just passed it on the Up line, so it looks like things can move again, at least in the Up direction.

 

[sharpener]

NR's disruptions page is headlined with 'lines reopened' - which isn't terribly helpful given only lines south of Cambridge have reopened, whereas the north side is very much still blocked.

The detail beneath is a mix of out-of-date information (a few lines after saying 'Trains can now run to and from Cambridge again' it says 'Please be advised there is no onwards travel between Letchworth Garden City and Cambridge at this time') and gibberish ('If you need to travel beyond Royston then you should catch a train that's last stop is Cambridge. This is to help with overcrowding.' - eh?)

ETA the NR site still says "If you need to travel beyond Royston then you should catch a train that's last stop is Cambridge. This is to help with overcrowding."

Traksy is no longer showing the berths round 1T08 as I3 - engineering work so may be the knitting is all fixed, though 1T08 still there.

OH caught the 1C92 which has just arrived CBG 12 late, one of very few from KGX. The RTT detail page was headed "cancelled" even though it ran!

 

[Steve Harris]

Just had a look at signalmaps and noticed that 5C05 is in the berth behind 1T08. I wonder if it's finally being rescued!?

 

[MrJeeves]

The southern end of Thameslink has been quite a mess today due to the cancellation of all the Brighton - Cambridge services. It's a shame they cancel these throughout, as it does half frequency to/from London at a number of intermediate stops.

Special stop orders were added to almost all Southern Victoria-Littlehampton services at Three Bridges which did save me about 20 mins of waiting on the platform, but they certainly don't hoover up people like a Class 700 can!

I dread to think how busy services would have been if this was a Thursday rather than a Friday.

 

[Steve Harris]

Just had a look at signalmaps and noticed that 5C05 is in the berth behind 1T08. I wonder if it's finally being rescued!?

Looks like 1T08 has finally been rescued as the berth which was reporting 1T08 has cleared and a route was set into Cambridge reception road 2

Not bad considering it failed 15 hours ago !!!

 

[sharpener]

Just had a look at signalmaps and noticed that 5C05 is in the berth behind 1T08. I wonder if it's finally being rescued!?

Looks like 1T08 has finally been rescued as the berth which was reporting 1T08 has cleared and a route was set into Cambridge reception road 2

Not bad considering it failed 15 hours ago !!!

6J56 engineering train which was sat next to it has left as well, currently showing on the up approaching Cambridge South so it looks as though the site is now clear. Only the out of position trains and crews to sort out now!

ETA (at 2350) I see another engineering train 6O36 is still sat in P7 so maybe the fun is not over? Or perhaps it is unrelated.

 

[tatitiliti]

Another fine day on the Fen line!

 

[An_Engineer]

Another great day for Great Northern. Evening rush hour and there are no fast Kings Lyn/Ely to Kings Cross trains due to overhead wire problems (around Ely I think?), and then a separate incident with the emergency service meaning no trains on the Cambridge to Brighton route. The all station stoppers are still running, but that route is down to a third standard capacity tonight. The Kings Cross to Ely/Kings Lynn are terminating at Cambridge, so not sure why they couldn't just be turned around at Cambridge to form a KGX <-> CBG shuttle.

And greater Anglia seem to be running all the way up to Ely, so seems that at least some service should be possible? But Great Northern seem to have thrown in the towel again.

 

[MikeWM]

Here's last weeks evening peak services KGX-ELY - *without* the unfolding disaster tonight.


(Table showing disastrous performance of peak evening GN services to Ely from London).

I mean, just look at that. What an utter disaster. 2 out of 35 trains on time, and a whole 6 out of 35 arriving within 5 minutes of timetabled. You don't think it can get any worse, and then every time it does.

 

[Mattplans]

Fatality today caused some issues at Herne Hill (as well as another incident at Nunhead), but it looks like crew displacement is now an issueAbandoned train at London Bridge plat 4 and they don't seem willing to loop via Plt3. (Rightly so, as that sort of disruption can pretty much scupper the intricate paths on the Southeastern lines.) I'm assuming this train was dumped there by someone who doesn't sign Rainham. I'm afraid I don't get the logic behind this diagramming when there's so many drivers that sign Luton-Rainham

 

[tatitiliti]

Here's last weeks evening peak services KGX-ELY - *without* the unfolding disaster tonight.

View attachment 207274
(Table showing disastrous performance of peak evening GN services to Ely from London).

I mean, just look at that. What an utter disaster. 2 out of 35 trains on time, and a whole 6 out of 35 arriving within 5 minutes of timetabled. You don't think it can get any worse, and then every time it does.

In the last 12 weeks:

Watlington: 5th least punctual UK station out of 2649
Downham Market: 6th least punctual UK station out of 2649
Littleport: 7th least punctual UK station out of 2649
King’s Lynn: 91st least punctual UK station out of 2649 (only because of recovery time before departures - arrivals are just as bad as the others).

I can understand, say, Manchester Oxford Road or Nuneaton, etc.

But these are four rural or small town stations with a single company operating hourly to half-hourly services…

 

[saismee]

Another great day for Great Northern. Evening rush hour and there are no fast Kings Lyn/Ely to Kings Cross trains due to overhead wire problems (around Ely I think?)

A dewirement north of Ely. I believe I read that it was a whole mile of wires but I can't find that info anymore. It's not really GN/TL's fault here, though the impact south of Ely is unacceptable.

 

[ac6000cw]

Another great day for Great Northern. Evening rush hour and there are no fast Kings Lyn/Ely to Kings Cross trains due to overhead wire problems (around Ely I think?)

I was at Ely station yesterday afternoon (6th July), and the announcements were saying there was an OHLE problem between Cambridge North and Ely. It wasn't noticeably affecting XC and GA 755s, but there were no EMUs between Cambridge and Ely for most of the afternoon. I left around 17:30 and a GN service from the south had recently arrived, the first since lunchtime. I don't know if there were other problems north of Ely.

 

[MikeWM]

In the last 12 weeks:

Watlington: 5th least punctual UK station out of 2649
Downham Market: 6th least punctual UK station out of 2649
Littleport: 7th least punctual UK station out of 2649

Indeed. I've been keeping an eye on these figures for a while and all three have been in the worst 10 for the last couple of months now.

The only other consistent regular in the bottom 10 is Market Harborough, and that will be due to the woes the MML is having with rolling stock, so presumably that will get better at some point - but there's nothing on the horizon to improve the Fen Line (except possibly the proposal above to increase turnarounds at KLN, and that will be almost a year away *at the earliest*).

I did note on Twitter last night someone complaining that the delay repay system had rejected their claim due to making a lot of claims in a short period. So even GN's automated systems can't believe quite how bad the service is!

 

[MikeWM]

Well, tonight the 1648 off KGX is 4 carriages (!) and currently running 20 minutes late, the 1718 is 4 carriages (!) and cancelled north of Cambridge, and the 1818 is cancelled throughout. Another classic evening peak from GN already, with plenty of time left for other things to go wrong.

 

[tatitiliti]

Well, tonight the 1648 off KGX is 4 carriages (!) and currently running 20 minutes late, the 1718 is 4 carriages (!) and cancelled north of Cambridge, and the 1818 is cancelled throughout. Another classic evening peak from GN already, with plenty of time left for other things to go wrong.

lol, they’re even worse towards the end of peak.

I did note on Twitter last night someone complaining that the delay repay system had rejected their claim due to making a lot of claims in a short period. So even GN's automated systems can't believe quite how bad the service is!

I’ve seen it too - GTR is so out of order for auto-rejecting arbitrarily ‘excessive’ DR claims that is simply reflective of their service.

Ombudsman needs to hear about this because rejecting valid claims by default and having to call them (rather than just flagging the account) may breach contractual consumer rights.

 

[liam456]

Almost caught up in Cambridge yesterday with three of the last four services cancelled due to 'faults on a train'
Are Hornsey depot struggling to turn out 379's or was I just unlucky? Especially considering the last Cambridge cruiser to King's Cross was cancelled leading to large potential delay repay liabilities from taxis to London!

 

[jon0844]

Seems 700/1s have an issue with the pantographs on a number of units that need inspections and possible removal from service for repairs. Affected units can continue to run on third rail but only run on overhead line areas if at least one pan is deemed usable.

 

[Failed Unit]

Seems 700/1s have an issue with the pantographs on a number of units that need inspections and possible removal from service for repairs. Affected units can continue to run on third rail but only run on overhead line areas if at least one pan is deemed usable.

Interesting it is only the 12 cars impacted. Unless there is an infrastructure issue on the regular routes damaging them that the 8 cars don’t venture on.

 

[saismee]

Seems 700/1s have an issue with the pantographs on a number of units that need inspections and possible removal from service for repairs. Affected units can continue to run on third rail but only run on overhead line areas if at least one pan is deemed usable.

Is it just 700/1s? Apparently 41 units are being checked, with 7 out of service so far.

 

[MikeWM]

Interesting that the problems are on the 700s, given it has been 379s that have been cancelled left right and centre over the last few days due to 'train faults'. The 379 I was on this morning had at least two carriages without working AC, which was bad enough at 9am and certainly won't be pleasant as the day progresses.

Last night was, indeed, another disastrous evening. Here's the updated figures for the last week:


(table showing utterly abysmal performance of evening peak Kings Cross to Ely trains for the last week).

That must be in with a convincing chance of getting the 'worst performance ever seen on the UK rail network' award.

 

[RailwayRookie]

Interesting that the problems are on the 700s, given it has been 379s that have been cancelled left right and centre over the last few days due to 'train faults'. The 379 I was on this morning had at least two carriages without working AC, which was bad enough at 9am and certainly won't be pleasant as the day progresses.

Wasnt it 379s that pulled the wires down at Cambridge and Ely in the last two notable OLE calamites?

 

[MikeWM]

Wasnt it 379s that pulled the wires down at Cambridge and Ely in the last two notable OLE calamites?

Certainly the Cambridge one on Friday, I'm not 100% sure about the Ely issues on Monday. But yes, there seem to be a *lot* of issues with the 379s right now.

Probably the never-ending hot weather isn't helping - it's not doing me any good, I'm no fan of hot weather - but it does seem odd that it is the 700s that are apparently being investigated and not the 379s instead/as well as.

 

[MrJeeves]

but it does seem odd that it is the 700s that are apparently being investigated and not the 379s instead/as well as

Presumably it is an issue with the pantograph itself, and they will likely use different models of pantograph. It's not really that far-fetched to think that the 700's one has some flaw that other rolling stock doesn't, is it?

 

[MikeWM]

Presumably it is an issue with the pantograph itself, and they will likely use different models of pantograph. It's not really that far-fetched to think that the 700's one has some flaw that other rolling stock doesn't, is it?

Not at all, but 379s have brought wires down once, maybe twice, in the last week, whereas 700s haven't, as far as I know. Also I'm not aware of widespread breakdowns of 700s whereas the 379s have been failing all over the place recently (at least if GN are to be believed for the reason for so many of the recent cancellations on the Fen Line - yes, I did just type 'if GN are to be believed' - oh dear).

Probably the two things are unrelated and it's just a coincidence.