Midlands Rail Hub 20m extra seats

[172007]

Lets hope that with yesterdays announcement about delaying HS2 that this project is still delivered to its current timeplan.

Snow Hill platform 4 is fully hoarded and has Midlamd Rail Hub poster on it. Appently nothing happening until 2027 it's a xase of making the disused area tidy.

 

[civ-eng-jim]

Lets hope that with yesterdays announcement about delaying HS2 that this project is still delivered to its current timeplan.

Snow Hill platform 4 is fully hoarded and has Midlamd Rail Hub poster on it. Appently nothing happening until 2027 it's a xase of making the disused area tidy.

The rail systems and civils designs need doing first - Only an outline design has been produced.

End of 2027 could be a good target date for installation or spring 2028, but that's just me speculating.

 

[Snow1964]

An 8 week consultation has opened today

Plans to turbo-charge rail services in Birmingham could include more services to the East Midlands and cities south of the region.

The Midlands Rail Hub Alliance will launch an 8 week consultation on a £1.75bn project to upgrade rail services into Moor Street, plans which could reduce congestion at New Street by switching some services across the city.

The rail hub scheme will add up to 300 additional trains on the rail network per day into or out of Birmingham and provide faster, more frequent, or new rail links for over 50 locations including: Nottingham, Leicester, Bromsgrove, Nuneaton, Worcester, Hereford, and Cardiff.

The proposals, which are at an early stage, will include:

• Three additional trains per hour to towns and cities South West of Birmingham
• The reinstatement of two additional Cross City line trains per hour (meaning there would be six trains per hour in total)
• Four additional trains per hour towards the East Midlands, one of which will also serve the North East, subject to future funding decisions

The consultation runs from Monday, 6 July and is open until Friday, 28 August.

However like so many schemes, it appears the consultation, will lead to changing the plans and another consultation in a years time ....

Feedback gathered during the consultation will be used to help shape the final, detailed proposals which will be subject to a second consultation in summer 2027. The Midlands Rail Hub Alliance then expects to submit a Transport and Works Act Order application to the Secretary of State for Transport in early 2028.

Details revealed on £1.75bn Birmingham rail plan - Place Midlands

Plans to turbo-charge rail services in Birmingham could include more services to the East Midlands and cities south of the region.

www.placemidlands.co.uk

 

[Mordac]

An 8 week consultation has opened today



However like so many schemes, it appears the consultation, will lead to changing the plans and another consultation in a years time ....

Details revealed on £1.75bn Birmingham rail plan - Place Midlands

Plans to turbo-charge rail services in Birmingham could include more services to the East Midlands and cities south of the region.

www.placemidlands.co.uk

Remember that according to Andy Burnham, the reason HS2 is being so expensive is that there was not enough consultation!

 

[Russel]

Remember that according to Andy Burnham, the reason HS2 is being so expensive is that there was not enough consultation!

Better set up another consultation about future consultations then!

 

[Trainman40083]

An 8 week consultation has opened today



However like so many schemes, it appears the consultation, will lead to changing the plans and another consultation in a years time ....

Details revealed on £1.75bn Birmingham rail plan - Place Midlands

Plans to turbo-charge rail services in Birmingham could include more services to the East Midlands and cities south of the region.

www.placemidlands.co.uk

At this rate, they will need a new line to get Cross Country trains past all the stoppers

 

[quantinghome]

Can't see any link to the actual consultation...

 

[Wyrleybart]

At this rate, they will need a new line to get Cross Country trains past all the stoppers

That is the whole point.
Since WMR started serving local passengers on the Camp Hill line there is no express route anymore for non stop trains - obviously including freight.

Whilst it is good for the rail industry to have more passengers, in my view the money would have been better spent on building a metro route . Birmingham will become throttled.

 

[The Ham]

That is the whole point.
Since WMR started serving local passengers on the Camp Hill line there is no express route anymore for non stop trains - obviously including freight.

Whilst it is good for the rail industry to have more passengers, in my view the money would have been better spent on building a metro route . Birmingham will become throttled.

How many paths are constrained by running the Camp Hill line with stopping services?

Even if the 2tph (which are only stopping at 4 stations on the line, the 5th being New Street) take up 4 paths, XC could at a maximum need 4 paths, freight maxes out today at 5 paths (2 way), that's a maximum of 13 paths.

More likely that's 12 paths (1tph from the SW is better to run via University to save a reversal at New Street) although quite probably 10 paths (the stopping services are likely to only need 1 extra path for the 2 services and freight is likely to max out at 4 in each direction).

As such, if we can't run a train every 5 to 6 minutes on a two track (one in each direction) urban line, then railway has significant issues.

 

[The Planner]

How many paths are constrained by running the Camp Hill line with stopping services?

Even if the 2tph (which are only stopping at 4 stations on the line, the 5th being New Street) take up 4 paths, XC could at a maximum need 4 paths, freight maxes out today at 5 paths (2 way), that's a maximum of 13 paths.

More likely that's 12 paths (1tph from the SW is better to run via University to save a reversal at New Street) although quite probably 10 paths (the stopping services are likely to only need 1 extra path for the 2 services and freight is likely to max out at 4 in each direction).

As such, if we can't run a train every 5 to 6 minutes on a two track (one in each direction) urban line, then railway has significant issues.

Depends how you are looking at it. If you want to consider it as planning on greens amd no pathing time, then it takes 12 minutes to do Kings Norton to St Andrews. Its on a 4 minute headway so the earliest you are passing St Andrews for a freight is 16 minutes. If its a XC following, then you are effectively following to Grand Jn or New St. Also, consider growth.

 

[Trainman40083]

Depends how you are looking at it. If you want to consider it as planning on greens amd no pathing time, then it takes 12 minutes to do Kings Norton to St Andrews. Its on a 4 minute headway so the earliest you are passing St Andrews for a freight is 16 minutes. If its a XC following, then you are effectively following to Grand Jn or New St. Also, consider growth.

I have lost count of the number of times I have been on Cross Country... Usually late, because of the distance it travels. You get to the Longbridge area (heading North) and you get stuck behind the stopper on Cross City. They want to increase the frequency of them, so it will become more common.

 

[civ-eng-jim]

Can't see any link to the actual consultation...

https://mrhalliance.co.uk/consultation

 

[59CosG95]

https://mrhalliance.co.uk/consultation

Worth noting that this consultation only covers Moor Street to Bordesley (inc. the East & West Chords); work at Snow Hill, at King's Norton and at Barnt Green (plus between King's Norton & Barnt Green) are subject to separate consultations.
My guess is that these separate consultations feed the detailed consultation, which in turn feeds the TWAO.

 

[CdBrux]

Worth noting that this consultation only covers Moor Street to Bordesley (inc. the East & West Chords); work at Snow Hill, at King's Norton and at Barnt Green (plus between King's Norton & Barnt Green) are subject to separate consultations.
My guess is that these separate consultations feed the detailed consultation, which in turn feeds the TWAO.

Why would this be so? Is the coherence of the overall scheme lost a bit by not showing the full picture?

 

[quantinghome]

Why would this be so? Is the coherence of the overall scheme lost a bit by not showing the full picture?

It is, but the purpose of the consultation is clearly about getting the Moor St - Bordesley expansion through TWAO. Personally I'd be very interested to know more about the additional interventions on the wider network alluded to in the consultation, but that's clearly not part of this exercise.

 

[Trainman40083]

I thought they had ditched anything involving the East Midlands to save money.

 

[The Planner]

I thought they had ditched anything involving the East Midlands to save money.

Its not ditched, just not going to be a priority.

 

[Trainman40083]

Its not ditched, just not going to be a priority.

Kicked into the long grass then

 

[hux385]

Looking at the plans, I can see why they want to kick the eastern aspects of the scheme down the road. It's the east curve that then requires the Bordesley viaduct to be widened, plus the 2 new platforms, new footbridge and entrance at Moor Street - all which will be quite complicated I imagine.

Meanwhile, the west curve (simply?) requires a bit of track/signalling reconfiguration, obviously in addition to the building of the chord itself. What I mean is that the western elements seem simpler and would presumably be quicker to deliver.

I absoluely want the east part of the scheme to go ahead as well, but it does seem that the 2 parts can progress at different paces with very little impact on each other. They so seem quite independent.

Also, am I remembering the additional train path incorrectly? There seems to be mention of Birmingham-Swindon, whereas I thought there was meant to be an extra Bristol train at one point in the plans?

 

[Trainman40083]

Looking at the plans, I can see why they want to kick the eastern aspects of the scheme down the road. It's the east curve that then requires the Bordesley viaduct to be widened, plus the 2 new platforms, new footbridge and entrance at Moor Street - all which will be quite complicated I imagine.

Meanwhile, the west curve (simply?) requires a bit of track/signalling reconfiguration, obviously in addition to the building of the chord itself. What I mean is that the western elements seem simpler and would presumably be quicker to deliver.

I absoluely want the east part of the scheme to go ahead as well, but it does seem that the 2 parts can progress at different paces with very little impact on each other. They so seem quite independent.

Also, am I remembering the additional train path incorrectly? There seems to be mention of Birmingham-Swindon, whereas I thought there was meant to be an extra Bristol train at one point in the plans?

I actually thought the West chord required some buildings (industrial units?) to be knocked down.

 

[hux385]

I actually thought the West chord required some buildings (industrial units?) to be knocked down.

oh well that probably throws out my argument of it being easier to deliver then!

 

[Zomboid]

I actually thought the West chord required some buildings (industrial units?) to be knocked down.

I think they both need some demolition. The east chord needs the Tesla dealers to go, the west needs a few industrial units to go.

 

[civ-eng-jim]

It is, but the purpose of the consultation is clearly about getting the Moor St - Bordesley expansion through TWAO. Personally I'd be very interested to know more about the additional interventions on the wider network alluded to in the consultation, but that's clearly not part of this exercise.

Reinstating Platform 4 at Snow Hill
Reinstating Platform 2 & 3 at Kings Norton
Four tracking and electrifying from Cofton jnc (near Longbridge) to Barnt Green

 

[quantinghome]

Reinstating Platform 4 at Snow Hill
Reinstating Platform 2 & 3 at Kings Norton
Four tracking and electrifying from Cofton jnc (near Longbridge) to Barnt Green

Thanks, I was thinking more of the interventions to enable more services to run between Birmingham and the East Midlands.

 

[The Planner]

Thanks, I was thinking more of the interventions to enable more services to run between Birmingham and the East Midlands.

Remodelling Water Orton. Effectively doing what Water Orton resignalling took out of its original scope 15 or so years ago.

 

[CdBrux]

Am I correct that the east chord and more services to East Midlands mainly came to life as an alternative to HS2 spur to East Midlands parkway?

 

[Trainman40083]

Am I correct that the east chord and more services to East Midlands mainly came to life as an alternative to HS2 spur to East Midlands parkway?

I actually wondered if they were to take advantage of capacity that HS2 enabled. There was talk of a station at Castle Bromwich etc and more frequent trains to Tamworth.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Kicked into the long grass then

Honestly, there's no pleasing these East Midlanders constantly moaning about a lack of investment. As has been clearly stated by DfT, MRH East is right behind MMLE completion, A46 Newark bypass, A38 Derby Junctions, Wigston-Syston Capacity and HS2 East Midlands Hub on their list of top priority schemes. You just need to have a bit more faith.

 

[Trainman40083]

Honestly, there's no pleasing these East Midlanders constantly moaning about a lack of investment. As has been clearly stated by DfT, MRH East is right behind MMLE completion, A46 Newark bypass, A38 Derby Junctions, Wigston-Syston Capacity and HS2 East Midlands Hub on their list of top priority schemes. You just need to have a bit more faith.

Or a long life

 

[londonmidland]

Honestly, there's no pleasing these East Midlanders constantly moaning about a lack of investment. As has been clearly stated by DfT, MRH East is right behind MMLE completion, A46 Newark bypass, A38 Derby Junctions, Wigston-Syston Capacity and HS2 East Midlands Hub on their list of top priority schemes. You just need to have a bit more faith.

All of these are just proposals until something actually happens, though.

Has anything actually been said about re-starting the MML electrification, or is it still ‘paused’ indefinitely?