Will the 810 involved in the Bedford crash be repaired or partly replaced?

[800001]

So have they yet switched to building any other shells?

That I do not know. And the next batch of trains to be built will be back to 26m in length versus 24m for the 810.

 

[Zomboid]

I don't know for sure, but it's pretty likely that they won't yet have an order for another 810, and won't be likely to get one for some months if at all. I'd expect someone will have spoken to Hitachi about the possibility by now though, and they won't be doing anything to make such an order impossible in future.

In the mean time Hitachi will just carry on fulfilling their current order book.

 

[InTheEastMids]

So that suggests need to have all 810s in place and in service by then, I can't find the end date at moment. But presumably 33 units was chosen for a reason and either a thinned timetable or short forms will happen if replacements not ready.

Don't forget the increase in units over the Cl222-operated service, which I think was 23 diagrams from 27 units.
A few are doubled up and it seems from recent experience that 19-20 is the absolute bare minimum before cancellations start as it allows everything to be run as a 5-car.

So EMR's priority is probably to keep 23 units available daily as new 810s arrive and 222s are obliged to head to Scotland.
However, <gestures at 810 introduction thread>, how many 810s need to be available to EMR to ensure at least 20 and ideally 23 are in service is a fun bit of speculation.

EMR have had ~13 delivered (inc 015), of which 9 are passed for passenger service and 6 are out today.
So if the plan is for EMR to get a new unit every (for example) two weeks, then the unavailability of 015 sets back the plan by 2 weeks.

A further bit of potentially relevant speculation from the 810 thread is about 810002. Hitachi took it to Italy for testing ages ago, and nobody has seen any proof-of-life since. The speculation is that serious defects have been discovered in its construction, so whilst Hitachi might be reluctant to build another 5 Cl810 cars, perhaps they in fact might need to build another 10...

 

[JonathanH]

The speculation is that serious defects have been discovered in its construction, so whilst Hitachi might be reluctant to build another 5 Cl810 cars, perhaps they in fact might need to build another 10...

Alternatively, the service is provided with 31 units for the forseeable future, and passengers just face fewer 10-car formations than were initially expected. While not desirable, it is a plausible outcome.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Assuming you mean 70012, not 700012, but 70012 technically wasn't written off as it is still in use in the US.

Technically it was absolutely written off.

Written off means a full insurance payout/replacement because it is uneconomic to repair, and the asset becoming the property of the insurance company.

It was written off and GE acquired it back, presumably a very low price but offsetting the liability of the insurance company. Being written off doesn't mean it has to be scrapped. Like a Cat D car that the insurance company won't pay the cost of repair but can be repaired and it function perfectly well.

If any use and value can be found for the asset such as training, reuse of the shell, reuse of some parts, reuse as a mule, reuse as factory shunter, an artificial reef etc, doesn't change that it was written off.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Alternatively, the service is provided with 31 units for the forseeable future, and passengers just face fewer 10-car formations than were initially expected. While not desirable, it is a plausible outcome.

I agree. In the current environment where it fvery conceivable cost, this is an entirely plausible outcome as it presumably will reduce train provision costs to EMR by 2/33.

Then as and when growth does materialise, EMR's successor will faff around getting a microfleet of the 2030s equivalent of 180s, and all the costs that'll entail.

 

[800001]

I agree. In the current environment where it fvery conceivable cost, this is an entirely plausible outcome as it presumably will reduce train provision costs to EMR by 2/33.

Then as and when growth does materialise, EMR's successor will faff around getting a microfleet of the 2030s equivalent of 180s, and all the costs that'll entail.

Why 2 out of 33?

 

[Zomboid]

Why 2 out of 33?

002 is MIA, and 015 is in need of a bit of filler and a respray.

Though if 015 is a write off, won't the insurance go a long way to covering it's replacement?

 

[800001]

002 is MIA, and 015 is in need of a bit of filler and a respray.

Though if 015 is a write off, won't the insurance go a long way to covering it's replacement?

002 will appear wether original or brand new at the end of the current production line, EMR do not need to worry about that.

Infact EMR do not even need to know if it is a rebuild, as long as they get a unit.

 

[westcoaster]

Don't forget the increase in units over the Cl222-operated service, which I think was 23 diagrams from 27 units.
A few are doubled up and it seems from recent experience that 19-20 is the absolute bare minimum before cancellations start as it allows everything to be run as a 5-car.

So EMR's priority is probably to keep 23 units available daily as new 810s arrive and 222s are obliged to head to Scotland.
However, <gestures at 810 introduction thread>, how many 810s need to be available to EMR to ensure at least 20 and ideally 23 are in service is a fun bit of speculation.

EMR have had ~13 delivered (inc 015), of which 9 are passed for passenger service and 6 are out today.
So if the plan is for EMR to get a new unit every (for example) two weeks, then the unavailability of 015 sets back the plan by 2 weeks.

A further bit of potentially relevant speculation from the 810 thread is about 810002. Hitachi took it to Italy for testing ages ago, and nobody has seen any proof-of-life since. The speculation is that serious defects have been discovered in its construction, so whilst Hitachi might be reluctant to build another 5 Cl810 cars, perhaps they in fact might need to build another 10...

002 will appear wether original or brand new at the end of the current production line, EMR do not need to worry about that.

Infact EMR do not even need to know if it is a rebuild, as long as they get a unit.

I was going to say if it's not been handed over then it's still Hitachi's property.

I thought all body shells had been completed and moving towards the next build.

 

[800001]

I was going to say if it's not been handed over then it's still Hitachi's property.

I thought all body shells had been completed and moving towards the next build.

I was told when I saw a shell being moved from weld shop to production several weeks ago it was the penultimate carriage to be built.
For all I know that could be 002 (although everything about 002 is speculation until
Someone official states what's happening to that unit)

 

[Russel]

Alternatively, the service is provided with 31 units for the forseeable future, and passengers just face fewer 10-car formations than were initially expected. While not desirable, it is a plausible outcome.

Big kick in the teeth to the long suffering EMR passengers though.

Though if 015 is a write off, won't the insurance go a long way to covering it's replacement?

I'd presume so.

 

[bramling]

Don't forget the increase in units over the Cl222-operated service, which I think was 23 diagrams from 27 units.
A few are doubled up and it seems from recent experience that 19-20 is the absolute bare minimum before cancellations start as it allows everything to be run as a 5-car.

So EMR's priority is probably to keep 23 units available daily as new 810s arrive and 222s are obliged to head to Scotland.
However, <gestures at 810 introduction thread>, how many 810s need to be available to EMR to ensure at least 20 and ideally 23 are in service is a fun bit of speculation.

EMR have had ~13 delivered (inc 015), of which 9 are passed for passenger service and 6 are out today.
So if the plan is for EMR to get a new unit every (for example) two weeks, then the unavailability of 015 sets back the plan by 2 weeks.

A further bit of potentially relevant speculation from the 810 thread is about 810002. Hitachi took it to Italy for testing ages ago, and nobody has seen any proof-of-life since. The speculation is that serious defects have been discovered in its construction, so whilst Hitachi might be reluctant to build another 5 Cl810 cars, perhaps they in fact might need to build another 10...

Can I ask how it has become possible for Hitachi to just take a unit in this way (810002)? If EMR ordered 33 units or whatever then presumably there’s an obligation on Hitachi to actually provide 33? So whilst it may be a case of having to run without 002 for the time being, this presumably wouldn’t be acceptable as a permanent thing?

 

[Snow1964]

Can I ask how it has become possible for Hitachi to just take a unit in this way (810002)? If EMR ordered 33 units or whatever then presumably there’s an obligation on Hitachi to actually provide 33? So whilst it may be a case of having to run without 002 for the time being, this presumably wouldn’t be acceptable as a permanent thing?

It's not uncommon for first few units to be used for testing, proving etc, and then subsequently be upgraded to standard passenger spec towards the latter part of the production build.

possibly unit 2 was not expected to be fitted out to service ready condition until close to when the final units coming off production line.

 

[Russel]

It's not uncommon for first few units to be used for testing, proving etc, and then subsequently be upgraded to standard passenger spec towards the latter part of the production build.

possibly unit 2 was not expected to be fitted out to service ready condition until close to when the final units coming off production line.

Still though, a contract is a contract, if they've ordered 33 units then Hitachi have to deliver 33...

 

[800001]

Can I ask how it has become possible for Hitachi to just take a unit in this way (810002)? If EMR ordered 33 units or whatever then presumably there’s an obligation on Hitachi to actually provide 33? So whilst it may be a case of having to run without 002 for the time being, this presumably wouldn’t be acceptable as a permanent thing?

They have not taken 002, they just have not yet delivered it to EMR.

Now whether it is the original unit delivered or a replacement who knows except Hitachi.

002 will be delivered. Remember this was a unit used for test purposes and those units usually enter traffic last.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2026 ==

Still though, a contract is a contract, if they've ordered 33 units then Hitachi have to deliver 33...

And they will deliver 33, no one has said they will not. (that includes 015 delivered).

 

[Russel]

And they will deliver 33, no one has said they will not. (that includes 015 delivered).

I wasn't suggesting they wouldn't.

 

[43096]

Not quite, there were two carriages in the Neville Hill incident where the trailing bogie derailed, (second and third) and one where the trailing wheelset derailed, (fourth), by up to 1.25m to the right. There‘s a significant section of the RAIB report considering this (unexpected) aspect of the coupler design, I‘d be surprised if it didn’t come up again in the current investigation.

One of the actions placed on Hitachi in the report was to investigate why 3 carriages derailed at a relatively slow speed. In different circumstances they might leave a train foul of another running line.

To my mind it has to come up in the RAIB investigation. With slightly different timing a northbound train would have struck the derailed 810 car. The much older 360 kept all its vehicles in line, notably.

 

[Falcon1200]

Presumably there is an agreed contracted schedule for delivery of the units, and penalties payable if the schedule is not met?

 

[Helvellyn]

A further bit of potentially relevant speculation from the 810 thread is about 810002. Hitachi took it to Italy for testing ages ago, and nobody has seen any proof-of-life since. The speculation is that serious defects have been discovered in its construction, so whilst Hitachi might be reluctant to build another 5 Cl810 cars, perhaps they in fact might need to build another 10...

If there are build quality issues with 002 then I presume Hitachi might want to check 001 (and possibly 003) as well.

33 units will be delivered to EMR. One of those (015) could be written off before full fleet delivery. If it is replaced then EMR could actually end up with 34 units delivered, but only an active fleet of 33. Or if 015 is repaired/part replaced then it would be 33 delivered; 33 in service. Or 015 could be written off but not replaced (DfT won't authorise), so it would be 33 delivered; 32 in service.

 

[800001]

Presumably there is an agreed contracted schedule for delivery of the units, and penalties payable if the schedule is not met?

yes, penalties to be paid. Which is why any extra units as compensation can be discounted.

If there are build quality issues with 002 then I presume Hitachi might want to check 001 (and possibly 003) as well.

33 units will be delivered to EMR. One of those (015) could be written off before full fleet delivery. If it is replaced then EMR could actually end up with 34 units delivered, but only an active fleet of 33. Or if 015 is repaired/part replaced then it would be 33 delivered; 33 in service. Or 015 could be written off but not replaced (DfT won't authorise), so it would be 33 delivered; 32 in service.

Regards build quality, all units currently assembled will have been checked.

Hence 005/007 going to back of queue for delivery as they need a lot of work doing (unsure if weld or just general build/assembley).

Several months ago a source at the factory said several early build units were getting sections cut out and new parts welded in, how true I do not know.

 

[Peter Sarf]

yes, penalties to be paid. Which is why any extra units as compensation can be discounted.

Regards build quality, all units currently assembled will have been checked.

Hence 005/007 going to back of queue for delivery as they need a lot of work doing (unsure if weld or just general build/assembley).

Several months ago a source at the factory said several early build units were getting sections cut out and new parts welded in, how true I do not know.

If I remember correctly 810005 & 810007 were held back from delivery having suffered damaged wiring looms. I think it was surmised that later components mounted had used the wrong length fixings and had damaged the wires.

A side question regarding is 810017. What has held that up as I believe it is not yet delivered ?.

EDIT 10:35 :-

To recap :-
810002, 810005, 810007 & 810017 could all be 810s not yet delivered and held back for "finishing" - so still the responsibility of Hitachi.
810015 is an example built, delivered and accepted - that is no longer the responsibility of Hitachi but of EMR/Insurers.

 

[800001]

If I remember correctly 810005 & 810007 were held back from delivery having suffered damaged wiring looms. I think it was surmised that later components mounted had used the wrong length fixings and had damaged the wires.

A side question regarding is 810017. What has held that up as I believe it is not yet delivered ?.

No idea about that one, it's been seen complete and undergoing static testing now for several weeks, so don't know what delay is.

 

[fishwomp]

To my mind it has to come up in the RAIB investigation. With slightly different timing a northbound train would have struck the derailed 810 car. The much older 360 kept all its vehicles in line, notably.

Indeed. The behaviour of the Hitachi in the Neville Hill collision was a bit of a canary. Then we were told they it was because the train was going too slow.. and that it would not happen at higher speed with higher forces. Well, technically this Hitachi was going at 0mph at the time of impact... But something is certainly wrong with the modelling here.

 

[JTR60]

In a hypothetical scenerio where the whole unit ends up being a write-off, perhaps the cab from the front vehicle could be retained and repurposed as a driver/route training simulator. Didn't GBRF do something along these lines with one of the recovered cabs from the first 66734 that was written off after the Loch Treig derailment?

Similarly, it was the two of the rearmost vehicles from 390033 that ended up being re-used for crew/staff training at Crewe (the rear driving trailer and the rear pantograph coach that both didn't get flung all the way down the embankment at Grayrigg and thus didn't suffer as much structrual damage).


Indeed, this is also a possibilty. Vehicles from written-off units returning to frontline service replacing another withdrawn vehicle in other unit(s) of the same or a related class does have precedent.

Going back to the BR era and to pick out a specific example, 507022 is a good example of this.

It was badly damaged in a collision at Kirkdale TMD with 507004 in September 1991; 022 was written off as a result of the damage it sustained and Driving Trailer M64370 from 004 was scrapped.

As a result, 022's driving vehicles (M64388 & M64426) were both repaired and inserted into 004 and much later on, Strathclyde's 314203 respectively - the latter was renumbered 64558 and converted from DC to AC; 203's original 64588 vehicle was completely destroyed in the fatal Newton collision in July 1991 in what was, all things considered, the single most graphic illustration of the weaknesses of the PEP-derived family in terms of crashworthiness in a head-on collision (the 303 it collided with didn't fare much better to be fair).

Off topic slightly I know, but a correction on 390033. The carriages at Crewe for staff training are the rear driving car as stated and coach C which is the one with the shop in, this was the third from front in the accident and some damage is still visible on the side hidden from view and it’s still in Virgin livery! Only the visible sides were wrapped in Avanti livery.

 

[Strathclyder]

Off topic slightly I know, but a correction on 390033. The carriages at Crewe for staff training are the rear driving car as stated and coach C which is the one with the shop in, this was the third from front in the accident and some damage is still visible on the side hidden from view and it’s still in Virgin livery! Only the visible sides were wrapped in Avanti livery.

Ah I see. Thank you for the correction/memory refresher, could never remember which specific vehicles were reused here.

 

[Nogoohwell]

The 810 will be a write off. Modern day trains are not designed to survive a crash like this. They are designed to protect the passengers inside.

Looking at the pictures, the impact energy has traveled along the subframe of the 810, crushing the vestibule ends and couplings.

I’m not a train designer, but the vestibule area looks like being the crumple/energy absorbing zones. Perhaps Hitachi designed the IEP to sacrifice the passengers in the vestibule to protect the main carriage. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m not a train designer, but the vestibule area looks like being the crumple/energy absorbing zones. Perhaps Hitachi designed the IEP to sacrifice the passengers in the vestibule to protect the main carriage. Can anyone confirm this?

I can't imagine that standing would be permitted there were it the case. More likely it's just that big holes in the bodyside (i.e. doors) tend to create an unavoidable weaker area.

 

[DaveyJones]

Similarly, it was the two of the rearmost vehicles from 390033 that ended up being re-used for crew/staff training at Crewe (the rear driving trailer and the rear pantograph coach that both didn't get flung all the way down the embankment at Grayrigg and thus didn't suffer as much structrual damage).

Not exactly, the training vehicles are the First Class (Vehicle 9 London End) and Shop vehicle (Vehicle 3). That said, they weren't exactly used for passenger service post incident - The Damage to the Shop vehicle is very much visible on the reverse of the vehicle.

 

[Russel]

Not exactly, the training vehicles are the First Class (Vehicle 9 London End) and Shop vehicle (Vehicle 3). That said, they weren't exactly used for passenger service post incident - The Damage to the Shop vehicle is very much visible on the reverse of the vehicle.

Are there any photos of around anywhere?