Does the UK have a "premier" main line?

[AlterEgo]

Perhaps "Premier" in this context should be "least unreliable". I think that's how regular customers rather than enthusiasts would see it......anyone know which it'd be by this definition?

Most ordinary people would think "premier" meant prestigious, not operational reliability.

 

[godfreycomplex]

I'm loving the idea that the WCML is eshewing the limelight in favour of just getting on with the job.

Sort of like how Preston North End have been eschewing the Premier League in favour of just getting on with football...

Bayern Munich and RB Leipzig would be a fairer comparison.

One is fairly robust and unglamorous but represents a lot of people and gets the job done most of the time. It also makes most of the money it needs to sustain itself

The other is loud and grabs attention and publicity but represents quite a remote area and never quite reaches the heights of the other. Also it hoovers up a lot of money that would be better spent in other areas.

 

[Krokodil]

To me “premier” is not the same as “ most heavily trafficked” or even “most important” - it has as much to to with aura or status.

In which case, considering the first impression you get when arriving in London, the WCML has to be bottom and HS1 has to be top. Service on Eurostar beats all bar perhaps Caledonian Sleeper and TfW's Mk4 sets (is there any hot food on the Night Riviera these days?)

 

[norbitonflyer]

In which case, considering the first impression you get when arriving in London, the WCML has to be bottom and HS1 has to be top.

Arrival by HS1 is largely in tunnel. Arrival in most of the Southern termini gives views across the Thames (even to Waterloo, which doeesn't actually cross the river)

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Third would be the GW main line to Penzance also serving the Atlantic Ocean ports, like Plymouth,

The GWR served the English Channel. It was the Southern Railway that rab the Atlantic Coast Express.

 

[Farnborough]

If I were to put them in order, just based on how they are in my head, I’d go with

1. West Coast
2. East Coast
3. Great Western
4. Joint place CrossCountry and Midland
5. In no particular order, Transpennine, Southwestern, Brighton, Great Eastern
6. Any other “mainline” (depends how one defines it)

Not quite sure where I’d put HS1, but it should be on the list somewhere.

I'm not sure Cross Country counts as a standalone rounte, given that it just piggy-backs on other routes

eta: I see Sorcerer has made the same point!

 

[Sorcerer]

I would personally define "premier" route as both operationally significant and presitigious, and on that basis neither the East Coast Main Line or West Coast Main Line would fit that definition historically. The former had some of the most famous rolling stock in the world while the latter connected more major urban centres.

It's only today that you could argue the West Coast Main Line earns the title for not only connecting the most major metropolitan areas and carrying about 43% of UK rail traffic, but is also the network of the Pendolino which defined the mid-2000s renaissance of intercity travel in Britain. HS2 and the 895s will claim it later.

 

[Farnborough]

the ECML has Leeds, Newcastle and Edinburgh.

And York.

Which automatically makes it the Premier, IMVHO

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Personally, going at 125mph full-tilt through Rugby (and many other places on the WCML) in a Pendolino beats anything the ECML can offer.

In the immortal words of Shania Twain: 125 mph? That don't impress me much...

Having recently enjoyed both the TGV and ICE, if 125 is the best on offer, none are Premier...

 

[GraphitProjekt]

And York.

Which automatically makes it the Premier, IMVHO

It's not really a "top tier" city in my eyes because it's quite a small place, it's just got a big history. Other than an archbishop, I'm reasonably confident that most descriptions of York can also be applied to Norwich, and you don't see anyone saying the GEML is a premier line, it's perhaps the biggest over-use of the "Great" prefix.

 

[Farnborough]

As a last comment, and just so it doesn't feel left out, I nominate the South Western main Line - Waterloo to Weymouth, and including it's branch(s) to Portsmouth.

The UK's (now second) busiest Station (Waterloo), Clapham Junction, the birthplace of British Aviation (Farnborough), the previous Capital City (Winchester), the Solent Ports (Portsmouth, Southampton, and not forgetting Lymington), and the seaside resorts of Bournemouth and Weymouth

Not to mention, the regular carrier of millions of commuters!

 

[Krokodil]

Arrival by HS1 is largely in tunnel. Arrival in most of the Southern termini gives views across the Thames (even to Waterloo, which doeesn't actually cross the river)

Yes, but what a palace you see when you step off of the train. Before being ushered downstairs to go through customs...

 

[GraphitProjekt]

I would reverse 4 and 5 at the very least. The BML surely handles an order of magnitude more passengers, serves more destinations, and if we’re adding “aura” as a factor, has more of a history (the Brighton Belle, early electrification, the route to the seaside.

I’d also put the Cross Country Route ahead of the Midland.

Maybe if the MML had intercity services all the way to Scotland via Carlisle.

I'm surprised by this point of view. It's often said that the MML is the runt of the litter, but it definitely feels more defined and respected than the XCML, a route which doesn't even have a stable definition (I'd personally say Taunton-Derby)

In answer to the question, due a lot of people it'll be their local line.

My local is GEML which I'll always have a deep respect for but I'm still voting WCML. I've also spent (and continue to spend) quite a lot of time between Peterborough and Doncaster to the point that it's almost dull to me, especially trundling up to Grantham in a class 158 at 90mph.

 

[TheSmiths82]

West Coast mainline because it connects the countries most important city to London and Birmingham In all seriousness if you look at the population densities the line serves then I think the West Coast is probably more important but the East Coast is perhaps more important in terms of tourism (London, York, Edinburgh).

 

[Zomboid]

What is actually meant by WCML & ECML? The London to Scotland routes avoid most of the other big places along the way (Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds).

That said, I'd rank the ECML higher of the two because it has a more illustrious history - it was where the world speed records for both steam and diesel traction were set, and for better or worse the Flying Scotsman has entered the public consciousness in a way that other named trains haven't.

 

[marshlinker]

Arrival by HS1 is largely in tunnel. Arrival in most of the Southern termini gives views across the Thames (even to Waterloo, which doeesn't actually cross the river)

That is of course Waterloo's bay platforms. The main line continues to Charing Cross. The SEML has the best views approaching London of any terminal. From Canary Wharf at Deptford to the Houses of Parliament.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

That is of course Waterloo's bay platforms

perhaps those out-buildings should be renamed Waterloo (West) to avoid any confusion. Platforms A-X.

SEML also has breweries under it, oast houses, a majestic viaduct at Folkestone, the tunnels, cliffs and sea view on the way to Dover... It has it all!

 

[marshlinker]

perhaps those out-buildings should be renamed Waterloo (West) to avoid any confusion. Platforms A-X.

SEML also has breweries under it, oast houses, a majestic viaduct at Folkestone, the tunnels, cliffs and sea view on the way to Dover... It has it all!

I think geographically it should be Waterloo (South). Obviously a shadow of itself with most of the terminals it once served closed. Devonport, Padstow, Ilfracombe, Southampton, Gosport.
the line to Exeter mostly singled the Bournemouth service diverted just short of Southampton via a 20 mph curve on to a branchline via Southampton West. Its short lived eurostar services diverted to St Pancras. Definitely no longer "premier".

 

[Zomboid]

I think geographically it should be Waterloo (South). Obviously a shadow of itself with most of the terminals it once served closed. Devonport, Padstow, Ilfracombe, Southampton, Gosport.
the line to Exeter mostly singled the Bournemouth service diverted just short of Southampton via a 20 mph curve on to a branchline via Southampton West. Its short lived eurostar services diverted to St Pancras. Definitely no longer "premier".

All of the termini served by the SEML (Dover, Folkestone, Ramsgate, can't think of any others) are closed, so that's not a great yardstick to beat the SWML with - that all least still has Portsmouth Harbour and Weymouth.

 

[marshlinker]

All of the termini served by the SEML (Dover, Folkestone, Ramsgate, can't think of any others) are closed, so that's not a great yardstick to beat the SWML with - that all least still has Portsmouth Harbour and Weymouth.

The SEML termini have been replaced by superior through stations. Folkestone Harbour was never the main station of Folkestone. Its a bit like saying the ECML doesn't qualify because Edinburgh North Bridge Street Station Closed. All of the ex SW termini are closed their line removed and in use as housing estates, car parks or a technical college.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The ECML may have the history but we are now in the 21st century, and in the 21st century, it’s surely objectively the WCML that’s the main route for this country.

London to Manchester and London to Birmingham (each 3tph plus Birmingham slows), London to Glasgow, London to Liverpool, consistent high frequency and operating at maximum intensity.

 

[GWVillager]

I personally prefer the WCML, with its better rolling stock, better scenery and better fares, but there really isn’t any question as to the premier mainline - it’s obviously the East Coast.

Its stations are just hit after hit: Kings Cross is a major tourist attraction in its own right, and one of the most recognisable stations in the world: York, Newcastle and Edinburgh are similarly iconic and proud. The NRM has no shame in being positioned along it, and LNER are super keen on their historic associations and shiny glamour. Let’s not also forget the ECML’s dotting with ironwork milepost things - this is an ‘auraful’ mainline.

By contrast, the WCML seems almost embarrassed by itself. Euston is just depressing and needlessly poorly run, Birmingham NS seems to hide its existence, and the likes of Crewe etc. are in a dismal state of repair. Avanti takes little interest in their history, their livery and uniforms are dull and certainly not glamorous, and features like Shap Summit are completely unmarked.

For a time, though, I think this was reversed. In the late 2000s/2010s, whilst the ECML was witnessing the collapse of multiple franchises, a huge deterioration in onboard standards and catering, the destruction of one of the most stylish brands in railway history and possessing an old and increasingly scruffy fleet, the WCML was a beacon of privatised success. Innovative modern trains increasing frequencies and slashing journey times, a glamorous, trendy aviation-associated brand owned by a high profile British billionaire, high standards of onboard service - it was a mainline that was something to be proud of, not ashamed of, like the farce on the ECML. To prove the point, did anyone really mourn NXEC or East Coast? But Virgin Trains was quite publicly lauded when they (temporarily) lost the franchise in 2012…

 

[Taplowgreen]

Most ordinary people would think "premier" meant prestigious, not operational reliability.

That's certainly an opinion, but I think most "ordinary" people (beautiful turn of phrase by the way!) would certainly consider "prestige" however you define it (you haven't) would certainly incorporate reliability, especially if they rely on it to get to work - a lot of people here have cited the GWML for example - beautiful views around Dawlish etc but somewhat tarnished by its ability to be shut down by storms every year, and the hopelessly regular meltdowns between London and Reading?

 

[AlterEgo]

That's certainly an opinion, but I think most "ordinary" people (beautiful turn of phrase by the way!) would certainly consider "prestige" however you define it (you haven't) would certainly incorporate reliability, especially if they rely on it to get to work - a lot of people here have cited the GWML for example - beautiful views around Dawlish etc but somewhat tarnished by its ability to be shut down by storms every year, and the hopelessly regular meltdowns between London and Reading?

If they rely on it to get to work they are suffering from the tyranny of familiarity anyway.

By "ordinary people" I mean people who don't inhabit crank forums in this context. if you just go out and ask ten random people in the street what a premier or prestigious railway is they will immediately think of aesthetic and cultural context, not operational convenience or reliability. We are not considering what the *best* mainline is here, just the *premier* one, and the word choice on the part of the OP is important.

 

[AndrewE]

By "ordinary people" I mean people who don't inhabit crank forums in this context. if you just go out and ask ten random people in the street what a premier or prestigious railway is they will immediately think of aesthetic and cultural context, not operational convenience or reliability. We are not considering what the *best* mainline is here, just the *premier* one, and the word choice on the part of the OP is important.

Collins dictionary online https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/premier says

2. adjective [ADJECTIVE noun]
Premier is used to describe something that is considered to be the best or most important thing of a particular type.

so the WCML it is...
I'm with @TT-ONR-NRN - and would highlight the regular Birmingham to Glasgow and Edinburgh trains too, as well as those from Manchester and Liverpool (when they run!)

 

[AlterEgo]

Collins dictionary online https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/premier says

OP says, and I quote:

as in one that's the most prestigious or the flagship trunk route in the UK

So that's what they mean by "premier".

0/10, see me after the class for not reading source material.

 

[AndrewE]

OP says, and I quote:

as in one that's the most prestigious or the flagship trunk route in the UK

So that's what they mean by "premier".

0/10, see me after the class for not reading source material.

and seeing as the WCML goes from London and Brum to both Glasgow and Edinburgh with regular long trains, all well-filled, I would say it is the flagship trunk route. Unlike the airline-on-wheels which takes tourists from Kings X to York and Edinburgh... (half-joking)

 

[marshlinker]

I personally prefer the WCML, with its better rolling stock, better scenery and better fares, but there really isn’t any question as to the premier mainline - it’s obviously the East Coast.

Its stations are just hit after hit: Kings Cross is a major tourist attraction in its own right, and one of the most recognisable stations in the world: York, Newcastle and Edinburgh are similarly iconic and proud. The NRM has no shame in being positioned along it, and LNER are super keen on their historic associations and shiny glamour. Let’s not also forget the ECML’s dotting with ironwork milepost things - this is an ‘auraful’ mainline.

By contrast, the WCML seems almost embarrassed by itself. Euston is just depressing and needlessly poorly run, Birmingham NS seems to hide its existence, and the likes of Crewe etc. are in a dismal state of repair. Avanti takes little interest in their history, their livery and uniforms are dull and certainly not glamorous, and features like Shap Summit are completely unmarked.

For a time, though, I think this was reversed. In the late 2000s/2010s, whilst the ECML was witnessing the collapse of multiple franchises, a huge deterioration in onboard standards and catering, the destruction of one of the most stylish brands in railway history and possessing an old and increasingly scruffy fleet, the WCML was a beacon of privatised success. Innovative modern trains increasing frequencies and slashing journey times, a glamorous, trendy aviation-associated brand owned by a high profile British billionaire, high standards of onboard service - it was a mainline that was something to be proud of, not ashamed of, like the farce on the ECML. To prove the point, did anyone really mourn NXEC or East Coast? But Virgin Trains was quite publicly lauded when they (temporarily) lost the franchise in 2012…

You cant really put Kings Cross in the same category as Euston. Its one of the smaller London Terminals. Euston has half as many passenger entries and exits again.

 

[Sorcerer]

On the basis of my original wording I can see why the East Coast Main Line would earn the title because it is arguably the more tourist and leisure-focused of both intercity routes with cities like London, York and Edinburgh. Ask anyone on the street to name a steam engine and you can be confident the majority of answers will be "Flying Scotsman". It's a strong case for being a prestigious or flagship trunk route even if you consider it largely historical and not quite as strong today (ask a random person to name a modern train and you're more likely to get "Pendolino" than "Azuma" in my opinion).

 

[cornishjohn]

Obviously a shadow of itself with most of the terminals it once served closed. Devonport, Padstow, Ilfracombe, Southampton, Gosport.
the line to Exeter mostly singled the Bournemouth service diverted just short of Southampton via a 20 mph curve on to a branchline via Southampton West. Its short lived eurostar services diverted to St Pancras. Definitely no longer "premier".

Growing up the Waterloo line never felt in the slightest a premier one. The station was always pretty tatty, the flappy indicator board had clearly seen better days. The only thing of interest was the Weymouth express. By contrast Victoria with the Golden Arrow felt much more important.

With its electrification in the 70's I always thought the WCML was considered the premier route over the ECML. Even the HST didn't seem to change that. The Kings X I met my dad off the edinburgh HST at was quite grotty, (and St Pancras was even worse) the Euston that i remember from school outings to Aviemore was however quite exciting.

 

[GWVillager]

You cant really put Kings Cross in the same category as Euston. Its one of the smaller London Terminals. Euston has half as many passenger entries and exits again.

The fact that, despite this, Kings Cross still feels grander and more impressive than Euston more strengthens the ECML's claim to flagship status, I'd argue.

 

[AlterEgo]

The fact that, despite this, Kings Cross still feels grander and more impressive than Euston more strengthens the ECML's claim to flagship status, I'd argue.

Quite.

Euston is a dump. Waterloo dwarfs Euston for passenger movements but this fact doesn’t make it a premier station.