'Upgraded' GWR IET seats

[yorkie]

GWR have announced upgraded IET seats:

Great to see Mark Hopwood CBE, Joanna Grew and Bryony Chetwode trying out our upgraded IET seats for comfort at our annual Community Rail and Stakeholder Conference today. The name of the game is… | Luke Farley | 28 comments

Great to see Mark Hopwood CBE, Joanna Grew and Bryony Chetwode trying out our upgraded IET seats for comfort at our annual Community Rail and Stakeholder Conference today. The name of the game is collaboration, and we've worked closely with Hitachi Rail to design an upgrade that will transform...

www.linkedin.com

Great to see Mark Hopwood CBE, Joanna Grew and Bryony Chetwode trying out our upgraded IET seats for comfort at our annual Community Rail and Stakeholder Conference today.

The name of the game is collaboration, and we've worked closely with Hitachi Rail to design an upgrade that will transform comfort and make the seats better than new...

However, based on the attached image, the seats seem really small, and it appears people will overhang into the gangway.

The image isn't on a train, so maybe the seats are more spaced out than as depicted.

Does anyone have any more information on this?

And the big question is: will the problems the previous seats had, whereby the metal bar under the seat would become exposed, definitely be resolved in the long term, or is this just a short term fix?

 

[superalbs]

I don't see any difference at all.

 

[positron]

Wouldn't be surprised if this just ends up being a replacement of the padding above the awfully placed horizontal bar. That alone would seem a game changer (for 5 years until they wear out again)

 

[superalbs]

It seems like it's just a new seat base, as fitted on the 197s. Still an uncomfortable seat that places the UK dead last among any other comparable long-distance product in Europe.

 

[positron]

It seems like it's just a new seat base, as fitted on the 197s. Still an uncomfortable seat that places the UK dead last among any other comparable long-distance product in Europe.

In fairness at least in terms of widths, it isn't super fair to compare with Europe as they largely (entirely?) have a wider loading guage and so have more room.

 

[superalbs]

In fairness at least in terms of widths, it isn't super fair to compare with Europe as they largely (entirely?) have a wider loading guage and so have more room.

The width is the same as the current seats (because they are the current seats), the issue is the comfort which is poor.

 

[northernbelle]

The seats displayed were the slightly narrower 'end' seats which are next to the door pocket. They are the same frames as now and so retain the width and legroom of before.

Having tried them they are a lot better than the originals - I'm told the new bases are pocket sprung and a different supplier/design from the originals. The backs are being re-foamed too, but no detail on the design of that.

 

[mmh]

Sadly there wouldn't be enough, but if GWR continue to fail to get the 175s to work properly, they could put their seats in the 800s. They might be old but they're massively better.

(This is is a tongue in cheek / wishful thinking post)

 

[Snow1964]

It seems like it's just a new seat base, as fitted on the 197s. Still an uncomfortable seat that places the UK dead last among any other comparable long-distance product in Europe.

Some GWR IET services are over 5 hours duration, so uncomfortable seats are lot less than ideal.

But they also use the 158s, 166s on 3.5+ hour services, and they are not overly comfortable either. Crazily these still have seat back reservation holders, and never got the electronic version a decade ago although expected to do another 7 years (or 17 years after card system discontinued).

I totally agree, for 200+ minute regional services, (and some 300+ minute IET services) comfort levels are too low. Not having option of numbered seats on 3+ hour services is also poor

 

[Sporty60]

At the risk of going off topic, I travelled to London and back yesterday and immediately thought that I'd lucked out regarding the bases.
This morning was a different story and my back has never been as bad.....really.

 

[Thunderer]

Any improvement would be welcome, but the cynic in me says its probably going to be very minimal. The whole style of these thin, hard, unergonomic seats is flawed. They are just a design not suitable for any long distance passenger train. First Class is not much better either, its certainly not a premium experience.

 

[Mikey C]

The seat design is a bare minimum effort in terms of comfort, but the lack of durability of the seat bases was ridiculous.

Not fit for purpose, if the padding can wear out so quickly, whether on an inter-city train or a metro one.

 

[Taunton]

we've worked closely with Hitachi Rail to design an upgrade that will transform comfort and make the seats better than new.

What a load of hyperbole for just putting a seat cushion in that should have been there in the first place.

 

[Harpo]

Any improvement would be welcome, but the cynic in me says its probably going to be very minimal. The whole style of these thin, hard, unergonomic seats is flawed.

The buttock-numbing slabs that masquerade as FC seats in Avanti’s IETs make me suspect you’ll be right.

 

[stuving]

The seats displayed were the slightly narrower 'end' seats which are next to the door pocket. They are the same frames as now and so retain the width and legroom of before.

Having tried them they are a lot better than the originals - I'm told the new bases are pocket sprung and a different supplier/design from the originals. The backs are being re-foamed too, but no detail on the design of that.

I'm sure these new seat bases must be the Quantum Seating "Ecoseat", which has had quite a bit of coverage as being pocket sprung. I can find their announcement of its initial use for GWR on 1st class seats in 166s, but not yet for this bigger order.

Ecoseat​

Quantum Seating has worked in partnership with Spinks, experts in spring technology, to develop the Ecoseat. The Ecoseat is the first sustainable, 100% recyclable rail seat. It is ultra-light, durable and cost effective without sacrificing passenger comfort.

The Ecoseat is an adaptation of the tested and certified Quantum M101 seat. We have made changes to improve the ecological properties of the seat but it retains its performance and approvals to GMRT2100 Issue 5 and fire safety performance to EN45545 and EN19689.

The seat's comfort performance can be tuned to meet your requirements whilst still maintaining the durability of the product. You can read more about our safety and peformance testing here.

Their flyer for the product refers to its testing as specified in GMGN2696, which is the test that came out of RSSB project T1140 "Defining the requirements of a seat comfort selection process”.

 

[harz99]

It's probably worth remembering that the use of thin and inadequate seat squabs on standard class long distance IC stock started years ago, the mark 2 stock weren't over padded, but the mark 4 stock when first delivered was even worse...

 

[DelW]

GWR have announced upgraded IET seats:

Great to see Mark Hopwood CBE, Joanna Grew and Bryony Chetwode trying out our upgraded IET seats for comfort at our annual Community Rail and Stakeholder Conference today. The name of the game is… | Luke Farley | 28 comments

Great to see Mark Hopwood CBE, Joanna Grew and Bryony Chetwode trying out our upgraded IET seats for comfort at our annual Community Rail and Stakeholder Conference today. The name of the game is collaboration, and we've worked closely with Hitachi Rail to design an upgrade that will transform...

www.linkedin.com

However, based on the attached image, the seats seem really small, and it appears people will overhang into the gangway.

The image isn't on a train, so maybe the seats are more spaced out than as depicted.

Does anyone have any more information on this?

And the big question is: will the problems the previous seats had, whereby the metal bar under the seat would become exposed, definitely be resolved in the long term, or is this just a short term fix?

I hope they've changed the structure design of the replacement 'cushions' (using the word loosely) or we'll be sitting on the crossbars again in a few years.

 

[northernbelle]

It's probably worth remembering that the use of thin and inadequate seat squabs on standard class long distance IC stock started years ago, the mark 2 stock weren't over padded, but the mark 4 stock when first delivered was even worse...

Indeed - the 158s too..the current comfy cushions were a later development!

 

[Taunton]

Ian Walmsley in Modern Railways wrote some years ago a typically witty scenario of TOC seat selection for new stock, with the options lined up in a room and the TOC Chief Executive there to choose. Salesman describes the features of the contenders. Chief Exec (gruffly) "Which is cheapest?". Pointed to one. Chief Exec sits down in it, stands up again "That will do". And goes.

Given Walmsley's past as a senior manager with ROSCOs, I suspect based on reality.

 

[Russel]

It says a lot that replacing worn seat bases, which should be routine maintenance, is worthy of a LinkedIn PR post.

 

[81A]

It says a lot that replacing worn seat bases, which should be routine maintenance, is worthy of a LinkedIn PR post.

To be fair, it sounds like they are changing the design of the bases rather than replacing like for like.

I may be unique in this, but I find the IET seats quite comfortable (though the collapsed-onto-bar situation is annoying). Possibly an acquired taste after 8 years of them operating nearly all the service on my local route and taking many enjoyable journeys on them though.

 

[Russel]

To be fair, it sounds like they are changing the design of the bases rather than replacing like for like.

Whatever they are doing, it's as a result of the original seat bases failing, any replacement should be simple routine maintenance, not a PR stunt.

I don't do a social media post every time I change the oil in my car.

 

[northernbelle]

Whatever they are doing, it's as a result of the original seat bases failing, any replacement should be simple routine maintenance, not a PR stunt.

I don't do a social media post every time I change the oil in my car.

It's an upgrade - i.e. it's a change/improvement in what's offered. I'm sure that's worth mentioning as it relates to something people have complained about for years.

I see social media posts all the time about people improving or replacing their cars.

 

[Russel]

It's an upgrade - i.e. it's a change/improvement in what's offered. I'm sure that's worth mentioning as it relates to something people have complained about for years.

I see social media posts all the time about people improving or replacing their cars.

The fact that people have been complaining about it for years tells you a lot.

This is a problem across multiple IET fleets, it should have been standard procedure to replace failed seats a long time ago.

 

[Sparks807Evo]

Being fair to GWR, at least they are doing something about it. Obviously the improved design is yet to reach the travelling public to test it, but it seems a sensible balance between improving comfort without blowing the budget. The original design was poor - but anyone who has done some reading on the IET programme will know why. Hopwood in a Modern Railways article recently cited seat comfort would have been an area he pushed further on at the outset. Unfortunately, as it has become clear, there is not a ton of money to play with in the industry and so a full seat replacement project doesn’t strike me as likely to get off the ground.

 

[Mikey C]

Is this complicated by half the trains being covered by the original DfT IET order, and half being ones GWR themselves ordered.

Also, are these different seat bases to the ones LNER are installing?

 

[Phatcontroller]

Ian Walmsley in Modern Railways wrote some years ago a typically witty scenario of TOC seat selection for new stock, with the options lined up in a room and the TOC Chief Executive there to choose. Salesman describes the features of the contenders. Chief Exec (gruffly) "Which is cheapest?". Pointed to one. Chief Exec sits down in it, stands up again "That will do". And goes.

Given Walmsley's past as a senior manager with ROSCOs, I suspect based on reality.

Ian Walmsley’s description was brilliant. The Chief Exec would sit for “a few seconds in the manner of a parachutist braced for impact” then “moments later the cheapest seat was approved”.

 

[Harpo]

Ian Walmsley’s description was brilliant. The Chief Exec would sit for “a few seconds in the manner of a parachutist braced for impact” then “moments later the cheapest seat was approved”.

Proof positive that we didn’t need the DfT to do our penny pinching for us.

 

[fishwomp]

Whatever they are doing, it's as a result of the original seat bases failing, any replacement should be simple routine maintenance, not a PR stunt.

It is the single biggest upgrade in passenger comfort since the introduction of padded seats in 3rd class on the Merioneth and Llantisilly Railway in 1895.

That's upgrade as in the delta of the improvement, not the magnitude of the measure itself. It doesn't take us back to the padded spring and horsehair seats of yore, nor 1974 HSTs.

Definitely something to crow about. Or, could have been released as a mea culpa from DfT apologizing for 9 years of suffering. The horizontal back of leg iron bar is a not fit for purpose design that should have entitled the government to a refund.

 

[Krokodil]

Ian Walmsley in Modern Railways wrote some years ago a typically witty scenario of TOC seat selection for new stock, with the options lined up in a room and the TOC Chief Executive there to choose. Salesman describes the features of the contenders. Chief Exec (gruffly) "Which is cheapest?". Pointed to one. Chief Exec sits down in it, stands up again "That will do". And goes.

Given Walmsley's past as a senior manager with ROSCOs, I suspect based on reality.

They should tell the CEO (or DfT staff in the case of the Agility procurement) that they're there to select their new office chairs.

It's an upgrade - i.e. it's a change/improvement in what's offered.

Is it an upgrade based on the IET seats when new? That remains to be seen. Otherwise it's just a renewal.