Odd leapfrogging on ECML - why does this happen?

[yorkie]

On several recently, I've been on trains which have been running very slowly to enable other trains to get ahead, then for the priorities to be reversed. Or for both trains to be impeding each other in odd ways without overtaking.

Can anyone explain why 1Y84 stopping service from York to London (calling at Doncaster, Retford etc) has been routed - very slowly - over Colton North Jn, in front of 1Y15 faster service which is non-stop from York to Grantham?

I am pretty sure 1Y84 will be held at Doncaster for 1Y15 to overtake it, and if not, then at Retford, but I could be wrong (and if that doesn't happen, it would be even more bizarre!)





The other day, my train in the other direction waited at King's Cross for a Leeds bound train to get ahead; the Leeds bound train was put on the slow lines at Stevenage - perhaps intended for us to overtake - but it was then put ahead of us near Hitchin, and we then waited for it at Peterborough, as we were non-stop to Grantham. Very odd and both trains incurred delays as a result.

There are some regulation decisions happening on the ECML recently that, on the face of it, look rather odd. In some cases I am sure there is a rational explanation, but in other cases there really doesn't seem to be.

 

[Twingo37175]

On several recently, I've been on trains which have been running very slowly to enable other trains to get ahead, then for the priorities to be reversed. Or for both trains to be impeding each other in odd ways without overtaking.

Can anyone explain why 1Y84 stopping service from York to London (calling at Doncaster, Retford etc) has been routed - very slowly - over Colton North Jn, in front of 1Y15 faster service which is non-stop from York to Grantham?

I am pretty sure 1Y84 will be held at Doncaster for 1Y15 to overtake it, and if not, then at Retford, but I could be wrong (and if that doesn't happen, it would be even more bizarre!)

Looks like in normal times, 1Y84 is planned to be overtaken at Doncaster by 1Y15. 1Y84 (from what I can see) is due to come out of Doncaster on the slows, picking up the fasts again just South of Doncaster (near Rossington). This gives that little bit more time than being held directly in the station, and I think there will be other examples of this. Certainly in the old timetable the xx45 from Leeds used to be sent out on the slows (in normal running) as it allowed the xx.30 from Edinburgh (non-stop York to London) to pass through around the same time.

 

[dodecahedron67]

ARS keeping booked order at a junction, simple as that. York Station WS are notorious for not manually intervening even when it causes delays vs leaving ARS in auto mode. There's also a 20 TSR over Colton North ladders at the moment, hence the very slow crossing movement

 

[yorkie]

Looks like in normal times, 1Y84 is planned to be overtaken at Doncaster by 1Y15. 1Y84 (from what I can see) is due to come out of Doncaster on the slows, picking up the fasts again just South of Doncaster (near Rossington). This gives that little bit more time than being held directly in the station, and I think there will be other examples of this. Certainly in the old timetable the xx45 from Leeds used to be sent out on the slows (in normal running) as it allowed the xx.30 from Edinburgh (non-stop York to London) to pass through around the same time.

Yes, both trains were a bit late today, but if they'd just given 1Y15 a clear run, 1Y15 wouldn't have lost 3-4 mins in that area. Indeed if they'd let 1Y84 depart after 1Y15, 1Y84 would have got to Doncaster no later than it did by taking the slow junction; if anything, it may have been quicker for 1Y84 too.

Or just let 1Y84 depart on the main line and allow 1Y15 to overtake as booked at Doncaster. Pootling along the Leeds line makes little sense at the best of times, let alone when there is a 20mph TSR over the junction!

ARS keeping booked order at a junction, simple as that. York Station WS are notorious for not manually intervening even when it causes delays vs leaving ARS in auto mode. There's also a 20 TSR over Colton North ladders at the moment, hence the very slow crossing movement

Yes agreed. I guess they are either short staffed, or the staffing is deliberately minimal, or it's a lack of awareness/knowledge/initiative.

 

[Bow Fell]

If the signaller intervened, and caused further delay the signaller would get the delay (OC code) even though they are doing it with best intentions of course!

By letting the ARS/DRS doing it, then the system is to blame!

I’m sure the signallers don’t want to work like that and they should be free to regulate as they see fit but sadly that’s the culture at times and that’s not blaming the signallers by the way.

 

[yorkie]

If the signaller intervened, and caused further delay the signaller would get the delay (OC code) even though they are doing it with best intentions of course!

By letting the ARS/DRS doing it, then the system is to blame!

I’m sure the signallers don’t want to work like that and they should be free to regulate as they see fit but sadly that’s the culture at times and that’s not blaming the signallers by the way.

Yes, it seems the culture of the railway encourages poor regulation by design. I see many examples of this on the ECML.

The TOCs 'solution' to poor timekeeping is to encourage passengers to run running and despatching trains early, which doesn't seem a sensible approach to me.

It's particularly noticeable when I see railways in places like Japan, Switzerland etc which are run in a vastly more pragmatic and competent way.

These delays are typically only a few mins here and there, but the rail industry seems hell bent on not holding trains for similar lengths of time to hold connections.

It seems the rail industry is keen to avoid 'delays' to services that would benefit customers while also being keen to promote a system that they know adds unnecessary delays that benefit no-one.

 

[rmHawk765]

ECML signalling has been getting progressively worse since ARS was installed. Every single day there are clumps of IC trains that get delayed near Claypole for whatever reason, I'm willing to bet it's down to ARS.

What happens when something fails, what does ARS do? A month or two ago I was watching a points failure at New Southgate, with some very silly decisions made. Presumably the ARS was not disabled at Stevenage so there were about 8 trains piled up on the Up Fast, instead of being routed via Hertford (this was off-peak so totally doable). I witnessed an ex-Hertford train routed onto the US2 P1 which it wasn't even booked for and then back onto the US1 to call at Hornsey and Harringay as booked. This of course meant none of the stuck trains could move. Instead, the train should've just followed its schedule into P2... so ARS wasn't even to blame here.

 

[Bald Rick]

ECML signalling has been getting progressively worse since ARS was installed. Every single day there are clumps of IC trains that get delayed near Claypole for whatever reason, I'm willing to bet it's down to ARS.

How much do you want to bet?

(Claypole is worked from Doncaster, on an NX Panel. Delays there are caused by the presence of the Level Crossings).

The ARS at York IECC and Tyneside IECC, essentially covering the route from north of Doncater to well into Northumberland, was installed 35 years ago.

 

[rmHawk765]

(Claypole is worked from Doncaster, on an NX Panel. Delays there are caused by the presence of the Level Crossings).

Apologies, I must admit I did not look into this very closely

The ARS at York IECC and Tyneside IECC, essentially covering the route from north of Doncater to well into Northumberland, was installed 35 years ago.

It does seem like the issues mostly stem from south of Peterborough to be honest.

 

[Bald Rick]

It does seem like the issues mostly stem from south of Peterborough to be honest.

Well that doesn’t have ARS either.

That’s DRS. Completely different! (three letters along the alphabet…)

 

[rmHawk765]

That’s DRS. Completely different! (three letters along the alphabet…)

What makes it different?

 

[Bald Rick]

What makes it different?

The first letter

In truth I don’t know the detail.

 

[Flying Snail]

Yes, it seems the culture of the railway encourages poor regulation by design. I see many examples of this on the ECML.

The TOCs 'solution' to poor timekeeping is to encourage passengers to run running and despatching trains early, which doesn't seem a sensible approach to me.

It's particularly noticeable when I see railways in places like Japan, Switzerland etc which are run in a vastly more pragmatic and competent way.

These delays are typically only a few mins here and there, but the rail industry seems hell bent on not holding trains for similar lengths of time to hold connections.

It seems the rail industry is keen to avoid 'delays' to services that would benefit customers while also being keen to promote a system that they know adds unnecessary delays that benefit no-one.

The blame culture on the railway applied to operational staff is ridiculous, mirrored by the complete lack of any blame culture applied to upper management.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Some commentary I found about what DRS is here

 

[milooo]

A repeat of poor regulation today - 4L08 1410 Doncaster Iport Gbrf to London Gateway Gbrf was let out of Conington Loop in front of 3 passenger trains.

 

[Segedunum]

A repeat of poor regulation today - 4L08 1410 Doncaster Iport Gbrf to London Gateway Gbrf was let out of Conington Loop in front of 3 passenger trains.

It was let out in the correct slot. The only issue is for whatever reason it set off out of the loop 9 late after a long dwell. It wasn't deliberately lobbed in front of passenger services.