History of the dispatch role

[35mmags]

Hi everyone! I am now a guard working in the East Midlands, but used to be a dispatcher at London Bridge and while I vastly prefer my current role, enjoyed my time sending trains out and doing other dispatcher-y duties. I'm in my late 20s for context.

I have been trying to find any information on the history of the dispatch role in the UK but am having real issues finding anything of substance. When you try to Google anything with the keywords 'railway' and 'dispatch', all that comes up is information about 'dispatchers' in other countries like America who are our equivalent of signallers I believe. I understand that there have pretty much always been some kind of platform staff, and back 'in the day', I guess steam era is what I'm thinking, even tiny stations had at least a porter. And I understand that they may have assisted the guard by closing the slam doors, maybe undertaking some basic safety checks. But I'm interested in how the dispatch role as we know it came about in more recently history- when the use of batons, the formal dispatch process, and the introduction of an actual dispatch role come about? For example, what did the dispatch 'process' look like for a loco hauled train leaving King's Cross in 1975?

Also, how has the role and how have the duties of dispatchers changed over time? For example, I used to be trained to split + attach class 455s, which was quite the undertaking, as well as do assists, retrieve items off the track (PTS trained), as well as obviously sending the trains out.

I'm really interested to hear about any memories or information that anyone has. Thank you

 

[Dr Hoo]

An interesting question. I’m not sure about the distinction between the ‘role’ and the ‘task’.
Back in my career, which started in the 1970s, dispatch really meant ‘giving the tip’ to the guard that confirmed that station duties were (safely) completed. Variously this included:
Not being before booked time
Any platform end signal showing a proceed aspect
Booked connections made (or positive decision not to hold)
Any parcels or mail work completed
Doors secured.

Any competent staff member could undertake despatch, e.g. parcels porter, shunter or supervisor, depending on how more specific platform staff were engaged, e.g. assisting a passenger.

 

[35mmags]

An interesting question. I’m not sure about the distinction between the ‘role’ and the ‘task’.
Back in my career, which started in the 1970s, dispatch really meant ‘giving the tip’ to the guard that confirmed that station duties were (safely) completed. Variously this included:
Not being before booked time
Any platform end signal showing a proceed aspect
Booked connections made (or positive decision not to hold)
Any parcels or mail work completed
Doors secured.

Any competent staff member could undertake despatch, e.g. parcels porter, shunter or supervisor, depending on how more specific platform staff were engaged, e.g. assisting a passenger.

Amazing! This is such good insight, thank you. What did 'giving the tip' i.e. RA actually look like? Was it just using a raised hand, or a green flag, or something else? Although I suppose it was unlikely to be a green flag if it was to the guard.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Amazing! This is such good insight, thank you. What did 'giving the tip' i.e. RA actually look like? Was it just using a raised hand, or a green flag, or something else? Although I suppose it was unlikely to be a green flag if it was to the guard.

It was dreadfully informal in those days. Noting that certain main line stations with locomotive-hauled trains (so no bell or buzzer communication) had Right Away/RA indicators that were operated by a plunger on the platform, the usual method for commuter multiple units was to shout "Right away, Mate" or similar. No flag or baton needed.

Some Leading Railmen were very confident in their ability to pirouette with a deft kick to a slam door still on the catch as a 12-VEP reached 20mph. I never tried it.

Clearly if anything was noted to be amiss a quick blast on a whistle would attract the guard so that they could give an urgent one-bell to their driver.

 

[AndrewE]

It was dreadfully informal in those days. Noting that certain main line stations with locomotive-hauled trains (so no bell or buzzer communication) had Right Away/RA indicators that were operated by a plunger on the platform, the usual method for commuter multiple units was to shout "Right away, Mate" or similar. No flag or baton needed.

I don't think it was too informal. The platform supervisor if there was one (or even the stationmaster in a top hat for an important train at a big station) would authorise the guard by a look - or by speaking - and the guard who was in charge of the train would wave the green flag and use a whistle if needed to alert the driver.

Clearly if anything was noted to be amiss a quick blast on a whistle would attract the guard so that they could give an urgent one-bell to their driver.

Or turn round in their guard's compartment on L/H coaching stock and lift the brake valve.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Or turn round in their guard's compartment on L/H coaching stock and lift the brake valve.

Ah, yes. That reminds me of a lovely tale from years ago:

I was on locomotive-hauled train from Inverness to Edinburgh when it started its journey. Like any former operations manager I was looking out of a droplight. The platform barriers had been closed and the platform was completely deserted. The barrier staff gave the guard the tip; he waved a green flag to the driver of the Class 37, who was looking out of the offside cab window and we soon started away. The guard immediately closed his door and was lost to sight. Meanwhile I observed signs of extreme distress on the barrier line and a staff member bent over and patted his posterior.
No Tail lamp!
I legged it back to the brake and lifted the brake valve, explaining to the guard as I did so. The train stopped.
Legged it through the train and leant out of the front droplight. Explained to the bemused driver, who was also looking out, what was up.
Meanwhile the station pilot Class 08 had already been scrambled and signalled out on a parallel line with the station staff member leaning out of the cab whilst holding a tail lamp.
The movement soon arrived alongside the rear of the train, tail lamp mounted, green flags waved and we were back on our way.
On time by Aviemore.
Was it in the Control Log? Don't ask!

 

[ThirteenArches]

For an insight into train dispatching a little over a hundred years ago, I recommend reading about the Abermule disaster in 1921. LTC Rolt's account in Red For Danger is probably the best. It shows how, on a station much less frenetic than London Bridge, a series of simple misunderstandings and failure to verify informally- given information could lead to a head- on collision and over 50 casualties. Incidentally, it occurred on the same line as the more recent Talerddig collision.

Read the book anyway, if you haven't already done so.

 

[Gloster]

Some Leading Railmen were very confident in their ability to pirouette with a deft kick to a slam door still on the catch as a 12-VEP reached 20mph. I never tried it.

I was doing that as a Junior Railman. It was an acquired knack, but I was young and keen in those days and it was a lot better than pushing it with the flat of your hand which would probably give you a jarred shoulder.

Platform staff didn’t use flags: that was the guard’s prerogative. The platform staff indicated by one raised arm or a single white light to the guard that all was done as far as they were concerned and he (few female guards then) would give the Right Away by flag or bell. If there was a curve or similar making it difficult for the driver to see the guard the platform staff, once they had seen the guard wave the green flag, could relay the Right Away by turning to face the driver and raise their arm; at night they would show a green on the handlamp. (I think my recollection is fairly accurate, but it is nearly fifty years ago and I spent less than a year on the platform.)

 

[Rescars]

For an insight into train dispatching a little over a hundred years ago, I recommend reading about the Abermule disaster in 1921. LTC Rolt's account in Red For Danger is probably the best. It shows how, on a station much less frenetic than London Bridge, a series of simple misunderstandings and failure to verify informally- given information could lead to a head- on collision and over 50 casualties. Incidentally, it occurred on the same line as the more recent Talerddig collision.

Read the book anyway, if you haven't already done so.

LTCR also tells the tale of the crash on the single line Cornwall Railway at Menheniot in 1874. There were two trains at the station, one with the line ahead clear and awaiting the RA, the other waiting to cross with an incoming service. Arrangements were very informal in that era. So the porter-signalman just shouted out "Right away Dick" to the guard. Unfortunately the guards of both trains were called Dick. The wrong train started away with inevitable unfortunate consequences!

I was doing that as a Junior Railman. It was an acquired knack, but I was young and keen in those days and it was a lot better than pushing it with the flat of your hand which would probably give you a jarred shoulder.

With Mark 2 stock the usual trick was to reach out and twist the communication cord telltale to slow things down a bit.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I was doing that as a Junior Railman. It was an acquired knack, but I was young and keen in those days and it was a lot better than pushing it with the flat of your hand which would probably give you a jarred shoulder.

Platform staff didn’t use flags: that was the guard’s prerogative. The platform staff indicated by one raised arm or a single white light to the guard that all was done as far as they were concerned and he (few female guards then) would give the Right Away by flag or bell. If there was a curve or similar making it difficult for the driver to see the guard the platform staff, once they had seen the guard wave the green flag, could relay the Right Away by turning to face the driver and raise their arm; at night they would show a green on the handlamp. (I think my recollection is fairly accurate, but it is nearly fifty years ago and I spent less than a year on the platform.)

Platform staff would use flags with DOO trains if there was no RA equipment (or it was faulty)

 

[Ashley Hill]

once they had seen the guard wave the green flag, could relay the Right Away by turning to face the driver and raise their arm; at night they would show a green on the handlamp

Nowadays they are expected to use a green flag to relay the guards handsignal to the driver. Rarely happens though, most use the green light on their bat even in daylight!

 

[Roger1973]

Some Leading Railmen were very confident in their ability to pirouette with a deft kick to a slam door still on the catch as a 12-VEP reached 20mph. I never tried it.

I remember seeing that done (although possibly with a 10-EPB formation not 12-VEP) at London Bridge (south eastern side) once or twice.

Platform staff didn’t use flags: that was the guard’s prerogative. The platform staff indicated by one raised arm or a single white light to the guard that all was done as far as they were concerned and he (few female guards then) would give the Right Away by flag or bell. If there was a curve or similar making it difficult for the driver to see the guard the platform staff, once they had seen the guard wave the green flag, could relay the Right Away by turning to face the driver and raise their arm; at night they would show a green on the handlamp. (I think my recollection is fairly accurate, but it is nearly fifty years ago and I spent less than a year on the platform.)

That fits my recollection of how platform staff would signal to the guard. I must have travelled on loco hauled trains where guard gave flag / lamp signal to start the train, but can't remember platform staff being involved in relaying that to the driver. Growing up in SE London, the suburban services were all EPB units, so had bell signals. Again, I remember seeing guards on 4 SUB units giving flag signals (I can't remember now if this was a visit to SW London for some purpose, or my father taking me on a day / afternoon out intentionally to see or ride on 4 SUB units shortly before they were withdrawn) but don't remember much more than that.

I also remember once or twice seeing Underground platform staff signalling to the train guard on a crowded platform using their hat in the same way as a baton is now used - I presume this was unofficial.

One thought - how did the platform staff signalling to the guard work at very busy stations / peak times where there were multiple platform staff? As I understand it (and from an outsider perspective) it seems to work now that multiple platform staff signal to the one member of platform staff who controls the 'close doors' and 'right away' indicators, but how did it work with slam door stock?

I can see there being a potential risk if some platform staff were satisfied that the bit of the train near them is ready to depart, but one wasn't - how would the guard have known how many hand signals / white lights to expect? or was there a different way of platform staff signalling to the (senior?) member of platform staff who would then signal to the guard? I don't remember ever seeing the equivalent of a 'right away' indicator, and in EPB unit days, the guard wouldn't have been consistently in the same place on each train.

 

[thesignalman]

One thought - how did the platform staff signalling to the guard work at very busy stations / peak times where there were multiple platform staff? As I understand it (and from an outsider perspective) it seems to work now that multiple platform staff signal to the one member of platform staff who controls the 'close doors' and 'right away' indicators, but how did it work with slam door stock?

I can see there being a potential risk if some platform staff were satisfied that the bit of the train near them is ready to depart, but one wasn't - how would the guard have known how many hand signals / white lights to expect? or was there a different way of platform staff signalling to the (senior?) member of platform staff who would then signal to the guard? I don't remember ever seeing the equivalent of a 'right away' indicator, and in EPB unit days, the guard wouldn't have been consistently in the same place on each train.

In my experience (at sharply curved platforms, presumably an equivalent situation) indications were relayed from front to rear of the train that all was ready (where the guard would be) and then, on his indication, from rear to front to advise the driver.

John

 

[Roger1973]

In my experience (at sharply curved platforms, presumably an equivalent situation) indications were relayed from front to rear of the train that all was ready (where the guard would be) and then, on his indication, from rear to front to advise the driver.

That sounds simple and effective

Although wonder quite how it worked in practice at a station (for example, London Bridge, south eastern side) where there wasn't a barrier that could be closed (like at Charing Cross) and passengers would be rushing towards trains from (for a 'down' train) the ramp at the rear of the train and from both staircases down from the footbridge nearer the middle of the platform, and the guard wasn't usually right at the back of the train (unless it was a single 4 EPB unit) - they usually worked from somewhere towards the middle, which I guess was so they wouldn't have to try and see what was happening 10 coaches away.)

I spent the first year or two of my working life commuting to / from London Bridge, and don't think I ever witnessed what would now be described as a 'platform train interface' accident, but many peak hour departures involved doors being closed after the train had set off and a fair amount of shouting at passengers by the platform staff.

 

[Rescars]

I spent the first year or two of my working life commuting to / from London Bridge, and don't think I ever witnessed what would now be described as a 'platform train interface' accident, but many peak hour departures involved doors being closed after the train had set off and a fair amount of shouting at passengers by the platform staff.

Much blowing of whistles and shouts of "Stand Aside"!

 

[Gloster]

Recollection, of a very junior member of staff who got into signalboxes quickly, is that there weren’t massive numbers of staff on a platform. Where there was more than one then one would be in charge of the platform and other staff would indicate to him, rarely her, that their bit of work or platform duty was complete: the person in charge would then be the one to give the signal to the guard. It probably was a bit vague and everybody adjusted the general arrangements to the particular situation, but it seemed to work.

Station staff relaying the guard’s Green was only done where the driver couldn’t see the guard clearly due to a curve, etc. If the driver had a good view of the guard, then station staff didn’t give a signal, except ‘stop’ in an emergency, after they had given the work completed signal to the guard.

 

[Taunton]

The guard would be right at the back of a possibly 12 or more coach train, and on a busy platform difficult to see flag or lamp, even from the slightly raised platform. An issue also where the driver's position was on the opposite side to the platform, in former times the fireman would give the tip, but when single manning came along there was now a further interval between green flag and starting.

This was felt at Taunton to have contributed to the 1940 Norton Fitzwarren accident. The train was initially signalled as normal across to the Down Main, which the driver had seen, but they were delayed some 10-15 minutes at the platform and the road was put back and set for the Down Relief to allow another to overtake. Finally ready, platform and signals on the left, GWR driver on the right, so fireman gives the tip, looking at the signal, "yeah, right away", but it's now a different green signal to the one the driver first saw.