“Buy before you board” - policy where ticket buying facilities are a long way away from the train

[amahy]

Following a recent visit to Shipley station, something occurred to me about this. Is there a concrete fare policy on “by before you board”, when ticket machines or the ticket office may be quite a long way away from your train?

At Shipley, there is a ticket office between platforms 3 and 5, as well as one ticket machine on platform 1. This means that, if you are catching a train from platforms 2 or 4, you have to walk some distance, including using stairs or lifts, to buy a ticket. The situation is especially complicated at Shipley, as there are multiple station entrances.

A much simpler example is Dalreoch on the North Clyde line. There is a ticket office on the Balloch/Helensburgh bound platform, and a ticket machine on the Glasgow bound platform. The ticket office has limited opening hours, and there is no step free access between the 2 platforms. This means that, to buy a ticket travelling towards Balloch/Helensburgh, you have to cross the footbridge twice to buy a ticket and catch the train.

 

[skyhigh]

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/fitzwilliam-ticket-machines.303788/

 

[lyndhurst25]

Distance and steps aside, one situation where this shouldn’t be happening is where passengers are forced to use a foot crossing to access ticket buying facilities. See the recommendations of the report into the fatal Elsenham station pedestrian crossing accident.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a749cd8e5274a44083b8139/061211_R232006_Elsenham.pdf

Station operators to identify those locations where intending passengers are required to use a station pedestrian crossing in order to use the station facilities (e.g. booking offices, ticket machines, waiting rooms or toilets). In all such locations train operators should, where it is reasonably practicable to do so, install suitable facilities (e.g. another ticket issuing machine) to reduce the need for passengers to cross the line (paragraph 382).

Any example of stations where this hasn’t been implemented yet?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any example of stations where this hasn’t been implemented yet?

I'm fairly sure all the Marston Vale local stations only have a TVM on one side. Though paying does seem to be optional on that (I do on my phone usually).

 

[redreni]

Distance and steps aside, one situation where this shouldn’t be happening is where passengers are forced to use a foot crossing to access ticket buying facilities. See the recommendations of the report into the fatal Elsenham station pedestrian crossing accident.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a749cd8e5274a44083b8139/061211_R232006_Elsenham.pdf

Any example of stations where this hasn’t been implemented yet?

I assume TOCs are interpreting this to mean barrow crossings, not stations where the passenger has to get themselves across the track on foot by means of stairs and a tunnel or bridge.

The former relates to the safety issue covered by the report, whereas the latter relates to accessibility which my local TOCs, at any rate, simply show no signs of caring about.

Slade Green is a good example of a relatively busy suburban station with entrances at both sides serving each platform, but where passengers entering from the south side and travelling towards Abbey Wood and London must cross and re-cross the track via the station underpass or the public footbridge to use the ticket office or the solitary TVM.

Anyone who can't manage steps would need to wait for a 99 bus to reach the other side of the station, use the ticketing facilities, then wait for another 99 bus to get back to their platform. The public footbridge was demolished and replaced two or three years ago, but the opportunity was not taken to make the new bridge accessible, so it was just a like-for-like replacement. Bexley Council doesn't care about accessibility either.

To answer the OP's question, if you wanted to buy a ticket after boarding then I think you would have to be able to argue that the ticketing facilities at your starting station were not available to you (e.g. because you couldn't access them), rather than simply that they were a long way away from your desired platform. Somebody who couldn't use steps arriving at Slade Green from the hitehall Lane side and travelling towards London would have a very good case, imho, to say no ticketing facilities were available to them.

 

[Harpers Tate]

The foot crossing at my local station is via a road level crossing adjacent. The sole TVM is
- adjacent to the small car park
- adjacent to the busier platform
- across from the most likely place where pedestrians and bus passengers would arrive
- and across (of course) from the less busy platform.

It means that there is no access over the railway for the several minutes while the crossing is closed. It means that if you arrive other than by car and you are using a service departing from the lesser platform, you have to be present with enough time to cross the railway, haggle with the TVM, and cross it again, before the crossing is closed for your (and/or another) train, and that may be a considerable time.

IMO what they SHOULD be doing is totally relax the "woe betide if you have no ticket" position for any departures where access to the TVM and/or to the necessary platform is restricted.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I assume TOCs are interpreting this to mean barrow crossings, not stations where the passenger has to get themselves across the track on foot by means of stairs and a tunnel or bridge.

I'd have thought level crossings as well. If someone is "marooned" by having gone to the other side to buy a ticket there's a good chance they'll just run across the track rather than miss their train, and that is a safety hazard. Even more so on lines with infrequent services.

It's much less of a safety hazard if there's a bridge or subway, though it's still a hazard if it causes them to run on it rather than walk.

 

[fandroid]

The foot crossing at my local station is via a road level crossing adjacent. The sole TVM is
- adjacent to the small car park
- adjacent to the busier platform
- across from the most likely place where pedestrians and bus passengers would arrive
- and across (of course) from the less busy platform.

It means that there is no access over the railway for the several minutes while the crossing is closed. It means that if you arrive other than by car and you are using a service departing from the lesser platform, you have to be present with enough time to cross the railway, haggle with the TVM, and cross it again, before the crossing is closed for your (and/or another) train, and that may be a considerable time.

IMO what they SHOULD be doing is totally relax the "woe betide if you have no ticket" position for any departures where access to the TVM and/or to the necessary platform is restricted.

Sounds a bit like Bramley (Hants) station. Ludicrous that on a busy line (with regular freights and non-stopping passenger services) in a growing village with 6000 pop. that there's no crossing other than a road level crossing.

 

[frankmoh]

My local station only has a TVM on one side (up), and there is some passenger flow on the down side in the mornings. It's quite sad as until the 1970s there was a building on the down platform, now there's not even a ticket machine.

 

[PeterC]

Shipley is effectively 2 adjacent stations.

At least with NR stations you can buy most tickets on line. At Chalfont and Latimer on the Metropolitan Line there is an ungated entrance by the village centre but there is a long walk by road to the ticket office if you want to pay cash. If you do the obvious thing and take the underpass through the station you find yourself on the wrong side of a set of ticket gates.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

At Chalfont and Latimer on the Metropolitan Line there is an ungated entrance by the village centre but there is a long walk by road to the ticket office if you want to pay cash

This is surely consistent with TfL's (stated?) policy to get away from paying with cash?

 

[yorkie]

Following a recent visit to Shipley station, something occurred to me about this. Is there a concrete fare policy on “by before you board”, when ticket machines or the ticket office may be quite a long way away from your train?

At Shipley, there is a ticket office between platforms 3 and 5, as well as one ticket machine on platform 1. This means that, if you are catching a train from platforms 2 or 4, you have to walk some distance, including using stairs or lifts, to buy a ticket. The situation is especially complicated at Shipley, as there are multiple station entrances.

A much simpler example is Dalreoch on the North Clyde line. There is a ticket office on the Balloch/Helensburgh bound platform, and a ticket machine on the Glasgow bound platform. The ticket office has limited opening hours, and there is no step free access between the 2 platforms. This means that, to buy a ticket travelling towards Balloch/Helensburgh, you have to cross the footbridge twice to buy a ticket and catch the train.

I assume TOCs are interpreting this to mean barrow crossings, not stations where the passenger has to get themselves across the track on foot by means of stairs and a tunnel or bridge.

The former relates to the safety issue covered by the report, whereas the latter relates to accessibility which my local TOCs, at any rate, simply show no signs of caring about.

Slade Green is a good example of a relatively busy suburban station with entrances at both sides serving each platform, but where passengers entering from the south side and travelling towards Abbey Wood and London must cross and re-cross the track via the station underpass or the public footbridge to use the ticket office or the solitary TVM.

Anyone who can't manage steps would need to wait for a 99 bus to reach the other side of the station, use the ticketing facilities, then wait for another 99 bus to get back to their platform. The public footbridge was demolished and replaced two or three years ago, but the opportunity was not taken to make the new bridge accessible, so it was just a like-for-like replacement. Bexley Council doesn't care about accessibility either.

To answer the OP's question, if you wanted to buy a ticket after boarding then I think you would have to be able to argue that the ticketing facilities at your starting station were not available to you (e.g. because you couldn't access them), rather than simply that they were a long way away from your desired platform. Somebody who couldn't use steps arriving at Slade Green from the hitehall Lane side and travelling towards London would have a very good case, imho, to say no ticketing facilities were available to them.

The foot crossing at my local station is via a road level crossing adjacent. The sole TVM is
- adjacent to the small car park
- adjacent to the busier platform
- across from the most likely place where pedestrians and bus passengers would arrive
- and across (of course) from the less busy platform.

It means that there is no access over the railway for the several minutes while the crossing is closed. It means that if you arrive other than by car and you are using a service departing from the lesser platform, you have to be present with enough time to cross the railway, haggle with the TVM, and cross it again, before the crossing is closed for your (and/or another) train, and that may be a considerable time.

IMO what they SHOULD be doing is totally relax the "woe betide if you have no ticket" position for any departures where access to the TVM and/or to the necessary platform is restricted.

Can I suggest you all contact the relevant TOCs (Northern/Southeaster and the unnamed TOC) with these specific examples, and report back here with their responses?

If any of them give a poor response, we can work together to try to hold them to account.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Can I suggest you all contact the relevant TOCs (Northern/Southeaster and the unnamed TOC) with these specific examples, and report back here with their responses?

If any of them give a poor response, we can work together to try to hold them to account.

I have in the past spoken directly, face to face, to a member of Northern's management (I'm not giving his name here) who promised that something would be done. That was a few years ago. There was an absolute promise that on-train personnel would be immediately directed to take exactly such a relaxed approach in these circumstances wherever they arise in the absence of a second machine. However, some time later, I was able to talk to a guard/conductor, whose response was that no such discretion was available to them. And, unsurprisingly, nothing whatsoever has changed since. Honestly, I think it will take a death before they sit up and take notice. In any case, I have no belief that any such further contact will bear any fruit. Perhaps the local MP is a better option.

 

[Snow1964]

My local station has just one TVM, but entrances marked as accessible on each platform, with about 500m accessible route via roads between them.

The machine is by side gate adjacent to main building and footbridge steps facing town centre, even though majority of journeys commence on other platform (towards Bath, Bristol).

More an accessibility issue, than not normally possible to get a ticket

 

[RyanOPlasty]

Why is signage for TVMs at the station entrance not a mandatory requirement? On most stations, they are easily found, but there have been a number of posts on here where passengers haven't found them or, in some cases, haven't recognised them as being ticket machines.

 

[Tetchytyke]

At Shipley, there is a ticket office between platforms 3 and 5, as well as one ticket machine on platform 1. This means that, if you are catching a train from platforms 2 or 4, you have to walk some distance, including using stairs or lifts, to buy a ticket. The situation is especially complicated at Shipley, as there are multiple station entrances.

The layout at Shipley means that if you're catching a train from platform 2 then, from the entrance, you either have to walk past the ticket machine on platform 1 or you have to walk past the ticket office to get to platform 2. It's very similar on platform 4, the only entrance where you don't walk right past the ticket office is the subway from Station Road, and even then it's not far up the ramp to the ticket office.

There are plenty of examples on Northern where buying a ticket is harder than it should be, but Shipley is not one of those examples. There probably should be a machine in the shelter on P2 though.

However, some time later, I was able to talk to a guard/conductor, whose response was that no such discretion was available to them.

The guard always has discretion. The rules are that they may charge you a Penalty Fare or the full single fare, not that they must.

Sadly it's yet another example of revenue staff on the railways talking out of their hoop.

 

[BazingaTribe]

Sounds a bit like Bramley (Hants) station. Ludicrous that on a busy line (with regular freights and non-stopping passenger services) in a growing village with 6000 pop. that there's no crossing other than a road level crossing.

Indeed, and while I can cope with steps in general, the Wokingham footbridge (used to cross the road when I arrive from the Reading direction) is punishingly steep for (literally) lame old me. It doesn't matter for ticketing because I can just buy etickets, but my main reason for being there now is working at the community hospital down Barkham Road so having to either wait or take a nasty staircase with no room for a lift to be installed is awkward. That said, there is access to the platforms on both sides and TVMs at both sides IIRC.

Reading West is pretty good though even though they took the footbridge out to install overhead wires (and I see why they did that!). There is stepless access to both platforms (from Western Elms on the Reading side, from Tilehurst Road on the Newbury/Basingstoke side) and the barriers now curb the anti-social behaviour that used to happen there when it was ungated. Not sure of ticket machines at the Tilehurst Road entrance but again, I suspect most people are using etickets on that route anyway.

 

[amahy]

The layout at Shipley means that if you're catching a train from platform 2 then, from the entrance, you either have to walk past the ticket machine on platform 1 or you have to walk past the ticket office to get to platform 2. It's very similar on platform 4, the only entrance where you don't walk right past the ticket office is the subway from Station Road, and even then it's not far up the ramp to the ticket office.

There are plenty of examples on Northern where buying a ticket is harder than it should be, but Shipley is not one of those examples. There probably should be a machine in the shelter on P2 though.

This was not my experience. The ticket machine on platform 1 is easily missed if you are using the platform 1 entrance, as you do not walk past the ticket machine before crossing the footbridge. I only noticed the ticket machine on platform 1 when I was already on platform 2.

There is also the added potential situation that the ticket office is sometimes closed, reducing a five platform station to just one ticket machine when it is. So TVM provision at Shipley is anything but sufficient!

Many of these cases seem like yet another example of the rail industry having its cake and eating it. “You must by a ticket before you board, but we’ll only provide the bare minimum ticket machines!”

 

[Kite159]

Many of these cases seem like yet another example of the rail industry having its cake and eating it. “You must by a ticket before you board, but we’ll only provide the bare minimum ticket machines!”

And how many people will buy tickets online regardless on the number of ticket machines. Just look at some of the London terminals (ie Euston) at how many machines they have got rid of.

 

[BazingaTribe]

And how many people will buy tickets online regardless on the number of ticket machines. Just look at some of the London terminals (ie Euston) at how many machines they have got rid of.

I'd imagine that's the single most significant factor behind this situation. The convenience of buying a ticket on the way to the station or even beforehand is just too great to pass up. They're making those decisions based on their own data that shows massive take up of etickets and not needing more than a token presence at stations.

While not everyone has a smartphone, penetration into the passenger base is such that they can assume the trend will continue. I don't think it's as big a deal for them as it is for us, and I can count on one hand the number of times I've bought paper tickets in the past few years. Even with the capsizing of the GWR app I've used for years, I just migrated to Trainline, which gives me cashback.

 

[Harpers Tate]

True, but I'd suggest that we do not ever want to get into a situation where those who do not choose to, or cannot (for whatever reason) use a device are subject to greater probability of penalty or risk even. And the same goes for those who do use a device and whose device lets them down at a critical moment. Yes, by all means, drift towards a primarily self-service online pattern, but it must surely be accompanied by a conventional last resort without penalty - onboard or at destination/interchange, and greater tolerance for device malfunctions. And if that actually causes a material increase in failed revenue collection, measure the extent to which that is offset by reduction in physical infrastructure costs and decide on this basis.

 

[styles]

Why is signage for TVMs at the station entrance not a mandatory requirement? On most stations, they are easily found, but there have been a number of posts on here where passengers haven't found them or, in some cases, haven't recognised them as being ticket machines.

Not that I'm saying this is justification, but the answer is probably just - oversight. The industry presumably now believes there's little need to bother with most people buying tickets on their phones or using season passes etc.

In my neck of the woods, I notice that when I get to the station and buy my ticket, I rarely see anybody else using the ticket vending machines, but plenty of people stood on the platform, and that's both at rush hour when you might expect a lot of season ticket holders, and the middle of the day when it's more likely leisure travel.

If anything, I can see the number of ticket machines being reduced long-term (not medium-term though - they haven't finished their attempt at closing all the ticket offices yet!).

A change in legislation to highlight TVMs I can't see happening now, personally.

 

[Haywain]

I can see the number of ticket machines being reduced long-term

Already happening - I was working on removing LNER machines 5 years ago. We cut the number of machines by around a third

 

[RyanOPlasty]

Not that I'm saying this is justification, but the answer is probably just - oversight. The industry presumably now believes there's little need to bother with most people buying tickets on their phones or using season passes etc.

In my neck of the woods, I notice that when I get to the station and buy my ticket, I rarely see anybody else using the ticket vending machines, but plenty of people stood on the platform, and that's both at rush hour when you might expect a lot of season ticket holders, and the middle of the day when it's more likely leisure travel.

If anything, I can see the number of ticket machines being reduced long-term (not medium-term though - they haven't finished their attempt at closing all the ticket offices yet!).

A change in legislation to highlight TVMs I can't see happening now, personally.

I suspect ticket machines are placed where it is easiest and cheapest to provide power and network connectivity rather than in the most sensible and obvious place for passengers.

 

[81A]

Already happening - I was working on removing LNER machines 5 years ago. We cut the number of machines by around a third

Are there any Parkeon TODier machines left anywhere? They seem to have disappeared (and given the decline of traditional TOD, not surprising).

I think the future is probably one TVM at most stations (using PRT and offering some form of "e-TOD" e-ticket reprint service for those who don't have/have a broken or low battery smartphone) with an staffed window at some but with the emphasis being on after-sales help/information rather than sales.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There is also the added potential situation that the ticket office is sometimes closed, reducing a five platform station to just one ticket machine when it is. So TVM provision at Shipley is anything but sufficient!

Shipley is my old stomping ground, there's also a TVM outside the ticket office on platform 5 for when the ticket office is closed.

Shipley actually has pretty good opening hours though, it's only in the late evening when it is closed. For all your criticism of the railway, the opening hours at Shipley are the best they've been for a very long time: 30 years ago, when I was growing up around there, the ticket office was shut by 2pm most days, and didn't open at all on a Sunday.

I suspect ticket machines are placed where it is easiest and cheapest to provide power and network connectivity rather than in the most sensible and obvious place for passengers.

The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive though. Power and network connectivity will be present in waiting rooms or shelters and passengers will usually be using those facilities when they're waiting for the train.

 

[Haywain]

Are there any Parkeon TODier machines left anywhere? They seem to have disappeared (and given the decline of traditional TOD, not surprising).

I have no idea whether there are any left but the ones we had at LNER were converted to full sales mode very soon after we got them

 

[CyrusWuff]

Are there any Parkeon TODier machines left anywhere? They seem to have disappeared (and given the decline of traditional TOD, not surprising).

I spotted five at Kings Cross when passing through earlier in the week and I believe there's at least one in the new lobby area at Darlington.

 

[The exile]

The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive though. Power and network connectivity will be present in waiting rooms or shelters and passengers will usually be using those facilities when they're waiting for the train.

That’s all very well, but if the ticket machine is in the waiting shelter on platform 2 but the entrance is on platform 1 which is also where your train leaves from. You won’t necessarily even see it’s there.

 

[81A]

I have no idea whether there are any left but the ones we had at LNER were converted to full sales mode very soon after we got them

Interesting, I wonder why other TOCs didn't do the same? Seems like making them card only TVMs wouldn't cost very much...

I spotted five at Kings Cross when passing through earlier in the week and I believe there's at least one in the new lobby area at Darlington.

Given I believe these are LNER stations, those are probably now converted to card only TVMs as @Haywain said. Still means some of the machines are in existence. I wonder whether any true TOD only ones are still in use anywhere? The GWR ones seem to have gone over the last few years.