Running Out of Fuel

[skyhigh]

Class 195s have 4 lights on the outside 1/4,1/2,3/4, 4/4, although another ~500 litres will go in when that 4/4 light is lit.
On the TCMS it shows the fuel level for each tank using a horizontal bar chart (can’t really describe it without drawing it)

Control can also see remotely exactly how much fuel, in litres, is available.

150/156 all have fuel gauges next to the tank as does tbe 769 but with them two can also see the level of fuel looking inside the tank via the filler.

As mentioned above the guage is often completely indecipherable due to dirt, so the favoured method of checking fuel levels if there's any question is via a makeshift dipstick in the filler cap.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Control’s IT systems keep track of the miles a unit has run since fuelling, and fleet control update the IT systems to say when each unit has been fuelled. Controllers will check at the start of each shift and make sure no units have been accidentally allocated over fuel range. And then through the shift a units allocations are kept up to date with what the train is really doing, and checks should be made at each time those allocations are changed to ensure the unit has enough range remaining to do what you want to swap it to.

Some types, such as 165/166 engines out don’t really make any discernible difference to range. Others it does.

For the Hitachi 800/802s the range is set at 900mi of diesel running if all engines working. That is then proportionally reduced based on number of engines available. The added complication there is keeping track of what miles are on diesel and what are on electric. Again control IT systems should track what is on diesel and electric, but a careful eye needs to be kept out for sudden / unexpected diesel use - maybe OLE is tripped off on a section and signaller authorised train forward on diesel. Upside with the Hitachi sets is they send out an automated alert to control when tanks go below 50% and go below 20%

Other train operators might do things differently, and from some of what I’ve seen of freight operators the Class 66 can report exact fuel levels and those levels get reported back by drivers.

Thanks for the explanation. But to me, reading that, it still seems strange that the driver has no easy access to see a fuel gauge. What you're describing is a somewhat complicated process of tracking what the train has been doing in order to estimate how much fuel is likely to be in the fuel tank, and as you implicitly seem to acknowledge there are all sorts of ways that this estimate might go wrong. By contrast a decent gauge can presumably show how much fuel is actually in the tank.

I can understand why you'd want control, rather than the driver, to be the ones thinking about how far the train can go before it needs to fill up again, since they are the ones making decisions on where it's going to go. But having the driver able to quickly see how much fuel is actually there would seem like a sensible back-up security to cover any cases where the estimate has gone wrong. So the driver can say, 'Hey, I don't think there's enough fuel here for me to drive this train where you've told me to drive it'. No?

 

[Magrar]

Why would a train operator tell someone the train hasn’t got enough diesel unless that statement is true? It’s a rather embarrassing mishap in planning terms.

Perhaps because it was already "running late" and then experienced "signalling problems"?

 

[transportphoto]

Perhaps because it was already "running late" and then experienced "signalling problems"?

I feel like the excuse of running out of fuel being plucked out of thin air is extremely unlikely. We may agree to disagree.

 

[Magrar]

I feel like the excuse of running out of fuel being plucked out of thin air is extremely unlikely. We may agree to disagree.

Bold enough to be believable?

Sounds ridiculous to me (a professional driver).

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Bold enough to be believable?

Sounds ridiculous to me (a professional driver).

I’ve known trains to be sent via a different route (OHLE vice unwired) because of low fuel meaning that it’s having to skip/not to call at several stations. (An unprofessional driver )

 

[Magrar]

Surely a DMU? rnning out of fuel is a nightmare scenario on the network?

As in, you just don't risk it.

Which is what "if we skip this station we'll be alright" suggests.

A private car owner might risk it. A professional would not.

I'm anxious on a third of a tank.

 

[6Gman]

I'm not sure if your omission of buses from that list was deliberate or not, but I can't recall any of the full-sized buses (as distinct from van-derived minibuses) I ever drove had one. I only ran out of fuel once, about 20 miles short of the finish on the highest mileage bus working we then had at Todmorden.

Moving on to a later portion of my working life, it was stressed to me that mileage had to be taken into account when compiling Short Term Plan unit diagrams, especially when the normal linkage onto the following day's diagram had been broken. Pacers were a particular concern, having roundly half the mileage available compared to the Sprinter classes. Naturally the train planning software recorded the mileage changes, so we could at least pass on a realistic starting plan to Control.

In my unit diagramming days where a significant number of trains overnighted at locations without fuelling capability (Central Trains) getting units back to fuel within their range was a vital, and often tricky, enterprise. Doing it during (e.g.) engineering disruption was distinctly challenging.

It was one of the reasons I preferred DMUs over EMUs. More job satisfaction!

(But higher risk of being called in by senior management for tea and no biscuits ...)

 

[GPR]

Control can also see remotely exactly how much fuel, in litres, is available.

As mentioned above the guage is often completely indecipherable due to dirt, so the favoured method of checking fuel levels if there's any question is via a makeshift dipstick in the filler cap.

True via leadmind.
Agree with the sight glasses, some are clean and some aren’t.
Dipstick isn’t needed if you’ve put a few million litres in the units over the years

 

[800002]

Whatever the going rate is for red diesel is at the point they buy it. Which has been very volatile recently due to Mr Trump. Its coming down to more sensible levels again.

And dictated, somewhat, by DafT.
If they've previously asked or allowed the operator to hedge their diesel costs when rhe going rate was in a better position or prevented them from doing so when it begun to show signs of escalating.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jul 2026 ==

Why would a train operator tell someone the train hasn’t got enough diesel unless that statement is true? It’s a rather embarrassing mishap in planning terms.

More operational, than planning.

Its much much rarer for the TPU to release a set of train plans with an inherent inability to see the unit(s) through to their scheduled depot appearance.

Much more likely to be on-the-day ad hoc arrangements carried over from a previous day and a little miscalculation. These things tend to happen with best endeavours to get things right under disruption to the published train plan. (No blame is generally attributable to the unintended consequences of reacting to events in real time).

 

[transportphoto]

More operational, than planning.

I agree with you - although I think my point was more the suggestion that a TOC wouldn’t just make it up.

 

[800002]

I agree with you - although I think my point was more the suggestion that a TOC wouldn’t just make it up.

Ahh, yes. Indeed. Agreed.

The thing to think about here is the accurate apportion of blame. Delay codes were invented for such reasons of accounting and accountability.
The root cause of delay, on occasion could be simply the depot weren't able to fuel (by forget or failure); train planning induced by not accounting for cyclical diagram; or disruption to services earlier / previous day leading to displacement and inability / unavailability of swaps.
Not sure if all of those would, though, have an applicable root cause of 'insufficient fuel', however.

 

[Martin66]

In 1980 we travelled from York to Inverness on the overnight motorail service. At around 6.30am we ground to a halt about 5 miles south of Aviemore. The driver told the guard the loco was out of fuel and set off walking to Aviemore station. We were served our prepacked breakfast in our sleeping compartment with a spectacular unrestricted view of the snow capped Cairngorm mountains. About 10am a train appeared from the Aviemore direction and coupled to ours and hauled us (and propelled its carriages) back to Aviemore. That train then uncoupled from us at Aviemore and continued to Euston. We waited at Aviemore for the rescue loco to arrive and haul us to Inverness. We arrived about 5 hours late in Inverness. It was quite an adventure.

 

[Dr Hoo]

True via leadmind.
Agree with the sight glasses, some are clean and some aren’t.
Dipstick isn’t needed if you’ve put a few million litres in the units over the years

Exactly. It’s amazing how one can develop an eye (or ear) for such things. Even with a 100-tonne bogie tank wagon (not a lagged one) you learned that a glance at the suspension and/ or a tap with a biro would confirm ‘loaded’ or ‘discharged’ whilst compiling a TOPS consist or preparing a train.

 

[D6130]

In 1980 we travelled from York to Inverness on the overnight motorail service. At around 6.30am we ground to a halt about 5 miles south of Aviemore. The driver told the guard the loco was out of fuel and set off walking to Aviemore station. We were served our prepacked breakfast in our sleeping compartment with a spectacular unrestricted view of the snow capped Cairngorm mountains. About 10am a train appeared from the Aviemore direction and coupled to ours and hauled us (and propelled its carriages) back to Aviemore. That train then uncoupled from us at Aviemore and continued to Euston. We waited at Aviemore for the rescue loco to arrive and haul us to Inverness. We arrived about 5 hours late in Inverness. It was quite an adventure.

Interesting! I wonder why they didn't detach the loco from the Up Clansman at Aviemore and run it forward to bring your train back there before recoupling and heading Southwards? I was working in the train planning office in Glasgow at that time....but didn't have day-to-day contact with Control and was therefore unaware of that situation.

 

[Taunton]

Templecombe on an up service was a favourite place for a Warship to run dry

Templecombe on the Up is surprising, because they would be fuelled at Exeter or Newton Abbot before setting off for Waterloo, and if I recall correctly would be expected to do the round trip without refuelling, although there was an emergency tank wagon and pump on the Windsor side sidings at Waterloo.

In earlier diesel days there were issues with poor quality diesel fuel (alias 'the cheapest'), which would leave sludge developing in the tank and reduce the usable contents, let alone clog the pipework - this was a particular issue with the steam heating boiler's burner. If the fuel gauge is unreliable and you are using calculations then you are dependent on the fueller actually filling to capacity each time.

 

[Watershed]

As a car driver I'd never set off on a journey without checking the fuel gauge (and I'd get a warning if it's low anyway). As a private pilot I triple check the fuel level of my aircraft visually, using a dipstick and using the gauges, when I'm doing my walk-around checks.

When my dad (who worked in garden maintenance) needed his petrol lawnmower, hedge trimmer or chainsaw on a job, he'd always check the fuel level before setting out, as well as after each job. It's such elementary stuff.

Yes, Control should keep on top of it, but 'stuff happens' during disruption and so it's easy for mistakes to be made. Just utterly amateurish of the railway not to specify fuel indicators in the cab, and a check of those indicators as part of driver handover/train startup procedures. An own goal really.

 

[saismee]

Surely a DMU? rnning out of fuel is a nightmare scenario on the network?

As in, you just don't risk it.

Which is what "if we skip this station we'll be alright" suggests.

A private car owner might risk it. A professional would not.

I'm anxious on a third of a tank.

And if it terminated at Ely where would it get fuel? Where would the rescue unit come from? If it's rescued from Norwich then that's two services canned, and maybe it's better to run fast past Ely (I'm sure some track bashers would love that) and get to Norwich to refuel. I don't know where fuel can be obtained but I'm assuming Crown Point would be nearest.

 

[GPR]

As a car driver I'd never set off on a journey without checking the fuel gauge (and I'd get a warning if it's low anyway). As a private pilot I triple check the fuel level of my aircraft visually, using a dipstick and using the gauges, when I'm doing my walk-around checks.

When my dad (who worked in garden maintenance) needed his petrol lawnmower, hedge trimmer or chainsaw on a job, he'd always check the fuel level before setting out, as well as after each job. It's such elementary stuff.

Yes, Control should keep on top of it, but 'stuff happens' during disruption and so it's easy for mistakes to be made. Just utterly amateurish of the railway not to specify fuel indicators in the cab, and a check of those indicators as part of driver handover/train startup procedures. An own goal really.

The train would have more than likely been prepared for service that morning / night before and I know with my TOC that prep would be valid for 24 hours so it’s safe to say there’s enough fuel for the day ahead.
Mistakes happen in life and it’s not something you ever hear of so the way things are seem to work. Not really a need for change.

 

[Watershed]

The train would have more than likely been prepared for service that morning / night before and I know with my TOC that prep would be valid for 24 hours so it’s safe to say there’s enough fuel for the day ahead.
Mistakes happen in life and it’s not something you ever hear of so the way things are seem to work. Not really a need for change.

Mistakes happen but running out of fuel, when there's an obvious and simple way of preventing that, is unforgivable in my view. But the 'not invented here' syndrome that pervades the railway means that there's no urge to address these kind of issues.

 

[rower40]

Set the way-back machine to when Anglia trains and Hull trains were both using class 170s...
An ECS move from Kings Cross to Liverpool Street had to be held on the Carpenters Road Curve for the relevant Norwich to Liverpool Street train to go first; these two trains (both class 170s) then coupled at Liverpool Street to run back to Norwich, where they would split again, with one unit going to Crown Point, and the other staying in service.
If they arrived at Liverpool Street in the wrong order, then the wrong one would go to the depot, and the other would run out of fuel later in its diagram. (Unless it was reported onwards to Norwich that the units were now in the wrong order.)

 

[vikingdriver]

The burning question... why not?

"This service has been delayed due to needing to find a petrol station."

Just imagine the clubcard points if it were a Tesco filling station!

 

[Falcon1200]

Wyy are we just assuming they weren't just lying?

Why think that they were, when, as per other replies in this thread and my own experience as railway staff, trains do actually occasionally run out of fuel?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Set the way-back machine to when Anglia trains and Hull trains were both using class 170s...
An ECS move from Kings Cross to Liverpool Street had to be held on the Carpenters Road Curve for the relevant Norwich to Liverpool Street train to go first; these two trains (both class 170s) then coupled at Liverpool Street to run back to Norwich, where they would split again, with one unit going to Crown Point, and the other staying in service.
If they arrived at Liverpool Street in the wrong order, then the wrong one would go to the depot, and the other would run out of fuel later in its diagram. (Unless it was reported onwards to Norwich that the units were now in the wrong order.)

A single class 170 - that's a 2 or 3 car train, right? - being used on the Norwich to London service???

 

[saismee]

A single class 170 - that's a 2 or 3 car train, right? - being used on the Norwich to London service???

London to Lowestoft or Great Yarmouth I believe.

 

[bishdunster]

When i worked at Bournemourh in the 70s i was asked to make an announcement that the Poole-York service would be delayed, awaiting a replacement loco.
It transpired the class 47 hauling the service had ran out of fuel. I subsequently announced the delay was due to "air in the fuel system, lots of it" !

 

[vlad]

It’s not like he can pull into Cullompton Services and self serve a few 1000 litres of diesel when his class 802 indicates it is running low.

The line north of Exeter runs right past Cullompton Services. Can't they put a fuel pump next to the track (or send the driver out with a jerry can)?

(I'll get my coat.)

 

[mathstrains19]

Interesting! I wonder why they didn't detach the loco from the Up Clansman at Aviemore and run it forward to bring your train back there before recoupling and heading Southwards? I was working in the train planning office in Glasgow at that time....but didn't have day-to-day contact with Control and was therefore unaware of that situation.

Not sure about the layout at Aviemore, but if it is (/was) just a simple passing loop, then the loco from the Up Clansman would end up at the wrong end of it's train at Aviemore (with no convenient way to shunt it around)

 

[Horizon22]

Whatever the going rate is for red diesel is at the point they buy it. Which has been very volatile recently due to Mr Trump. Its coming down to more sensible levels again.

I strongly suspect there's fuel hedging going on to reduce the impact of volatility, so unlikely to be the "going rate" exactly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2026 ==

Wyy are we just assuming they weren't just lying?

For what purpose?

 

[800002]

I strongly suspect there's fuel hedging going on to reduce the impact of volatility, so unlikely to be the "going rate" exactly.

Depends on whose in charge at DfT / Treasury and at what point in time. As documented in previous threads, I believe.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/05/30/diesel-hedge-rail-train-companies-dft/

Labour ministers blocked train companies from buying cheap fuel in advance of the Iran war, insiders have claimed.
The Department for Transport (DfT) prevented rail firms from hedging their diesel purchases because doing so risked being seen as “gambling with taxpayers’ money”, senior railway insiders told The Telegraph.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/05/27/transpennine-express-asks-labour-bailout-fuel-bills/

Bosses at TransPennine Express (TPE) asked officials for a taxpayer-funded bailout when the Iran war caused diesel prices to surge, its managing director told staff.
Yet the Department for Transport (DfT) refused to help, Chris Jackson claimed in a message seen by The Telegraph.
He wrote: “It has also been made very clear to us that there is no bailout package from DfT or Government and we therefore need to live within our means.”
The increasing financial pressures could force the northern England train operator to cut services and increase ticket prices.