Cambridge-London Terminals tickets valid to Blackfriars?

[XmaX]

I'm pretty sure that years ago, I asked a question about it here, and the conclusion was that a regular Cambridge-London Terminals ticket is valid to Kings Cross, St Pancras, Liverpool Street and Moorgate (including the less-known tube transfer from Kings Cross). I also knew that Cambridge-London Thameslink ticket exists, which obviously allows me to go to Blackfriars (and presumably London Bridge), but I was never able to confirm if this ticket is also valid on Greater Anglia to Liverpool Street, potentially followed by Elizabeth Line to Farringdon.

Anyway, last week during the heatwave, I had a Cambridge-London Terminals ticket and my final destination was Fulham Broadway. Normally, I'd get off at Kings Cross, and then take either Victoria Line to Victoria, and then District Line to Fulham Broadway, or Circle/H&C to Edgware Road + District to Fulham Broadway. However, in this particular instance all the fast trains to Kings Cross were cancelled, and I was instead on the Thameslink train to Brighton. I liked the AC levels of the Thameslink train, and staying on until Blackfriars also meant only 1 change in order to get to Fulham. As it turned out, ticket check happened that day, and I asked the RPI if I'm allowed to exit at Blackfriars and I was told yes. I was still not convinced, but at least I had the implied permission from the staff member to alight there. I was very surprised that the Blackfriars gates accepted the ticket without issue and opened the gate (but retained the ticket, which normally doesn't happen at KGX/STP/LST.

Is that actually allowed? Is it a recent change?

 

[jfollows]

No, not allowed.
See https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/travel-information/travelling-in-london/

The title is "London Thameslink" but it shows validity to London Terminals.

 

[Haywain]

I was never able to confirm if this ticket is also valid on Greater Anglia to Liverpool Street, potentially followed by Elizabeth Line to Farringdon.

No, the validity would end at Liverpool Street.

Is that actually allowed?

No, the validity of a London Termianls tickets from the north ends at St Pancras.

Is it a recent change?

Nothing has changed.

 

[Barn]

The simplest way to understand this rule is that a London Terminals ticket is not valid for alighting at, or passing through, Farringdon.

 

[ClivePage]

I suspect the officially "correct" thing to do is after alighting at Blackfriars go to the person on duty at the ticket barrier and ask for an excess fare between Cambridge to London Terminals and Cambridge to London Thameslink. I'm only guessing but suspect that the work involved in doing this for a minimal fare, perhaps zero, would persuade the barrier assistant to let you through anyway.

 

[Tobberz]

If I were to arrive into Waterloo East with a "London Terminals" ticket, could I transit via NR to Vauxhall?

 

[rmHawk765]

Out of curiosity, why does London Blackfriars not count as a London Terminal? Surely the entire core and London Bridge should count as that, given the operational patterns of Thameslink and the fact that you're likely to be on a Thameslink train if you're using a London Terminals ticket? Is the separation of London Terminals and London Thameslink just yet another one of those weird and incredibly stupid ticketing issues that GBR needs to resolve, instead of reducing services over the summer...

 

[transportphoto]

I suspect the officially "correct" thing to do is after alighting at Blackfriars go to the person on duty at the ticket barrier and ask for an excess fare between Cambridge to London Terminals and Cambridge to London Thameslink. I'm only guessing but suspect that the work involved in doing this for a minimal fare, perhaps zero, would persuade the barrier assistant to let you through anyway.

No, the expectation is that you purchase a valid ticket for your journey before boarding the train. Over travelling the destination stated on your ticket in this manner could leave the passenger liable for a penalty fare.

 

[Barn]

Out of curiosity, why does London Blackfriars not count as a London Terminal? Surely the entire core and London Bridge should count as that, given the operational patterns of Thameslink and the fact that you're likely to be on a Thameslink train if you're using a London Terminals ticket? Is the separation of London Terminals and London Thameslink just yet another one of those weird and incredibly stupid ticketing issues that GBR needs to resolve, instead of reducing services over the summer...

It does, but only from the South. The London Terminals vary by direction; you cannot use a London Terminals ticket to pass through Farringdon to reach a London Terminal on the other side of central London.

 

[AlterEgo]

I suspect the officially "correct" thing to do is after alighting at Blackfriars go to the person on duty at the ticket barrier and ask for an excess fare between Cambridge to London Terminals and Cambridge to London Thameslink. I'm only guessing but suspect that the work involved in doing this for a minimal fare, perhaps zero, would persuade the barrier assistant to let you through anyway.

Quite likely you'd be written up for prosecution if you did that unfortunately. You've travelled beyond the validity of your ticket there.

 

[Haywain]

I suspect the officially "correct" thing to do is after alighting at Blackfriars go to the person on duty at the ticket barrier and ask for an excess fare between Cambridge to London Terminals and Cambridge to London Thameslink. I'm only guessing but suspect that the work involved in doing this for a minimal fare, perhaps zero, would persuade the barrier assistant to let you through anyway.

There is no entitlement to an excess once you have overtravelled, so I would advise against that. You could find yourself having an awkward conversation with revenue protection staff.

 

[ClivePage]

OK, I stand corrected about the excess fare. You would have to do it before you started your journey.

But I agree with others that the London Terminals distinction is somewhat archaic on all Thameslink line trains now that London Thameslink exists as a "destination". It's on stations on the Cambridge and Peterborough branches that the anomaly exists. From stations on the Bedford branch you can no longer get a London Terminals ticket (though curiously from St.Pancras you can buy a London Terminals ticket to say Luton and it can save a few pence).

 

[Haywain]

the London Terminals distinction is somewhat archaic on all Thameslink line trains now that London Thameslink exists as a "destination". It's on stations on the Cambridge and Peterborough branches that the anomaly exists.

For stations from Cambridge to Kings Lynn there is a need for both as a London Thameslink ticket doesn't allow travel to Liverpool Street. On both branches London Thameslink doesn't allow travel to Moorgate.

 

[MikeWh]

If I were to arrive into Waterloo East with a "London Terminals" ticket, could I transit via NR to Vauxhall?

Yes.

 

[ClivePage]

For stations from Cambridge to Kings Lynn there is a need for both as a London Thameslink ticket doesn't allow travel to Liverpool Street. On both branches London Thameslink doesn't allow travel to Moorgate.

Yes but it's the distinction between that I think is archaic, i.e. the existence two different types of ticket. There needs to be at most one set of rules about London stations that you can use if travelling from somewhere north of the Thames, and perhaps (if the authorities are determined to make this different) another set of London stations that you can use if travelling from south of the Thames. I don't see why all the stations in the Thameslink core should not be on both lists.

 

[Watershed]

If I were to arrive into Waterloo East with a "London Terminals" ticket, could I transit via NR to Vauxhall?

Yes, the rule is that once you reach a London Terminal, you can continue to any other London Terminal that can be reached without leaving the London Terminals group.

London Bridge-Waterloo East-Waterloo-Vauxhall are all London Terminals which is why that is fine.

St Pancras-Farringdon-City Thameslink-Blackfriars involves leaving the London Terminals group when passing through Farringdon, which is why the validity is deemed to expire at St Pancras.

It's not a rule that makes much sense but it's how it works.

Out of curiosity, why does London Blackfriars not count as a London Terminal? Surely the entire core and London Bridge should count as that, given the operational patterns of Thameslink and the fact that you're likely to be on a Thameslink train if you're using a London Terminals ticket?

It is a member of the London Terminals group but because Farringdon isn't a London Terminal, it can't be used on a London Terminals ticket when coming in from the north.

I agree that it's completely illogical and inconsistent. City Thameslink is classed as a London Terminal even though it's a through station where trains don't terminate - like Farringdon - and it's less than 400m as the crow flies from the main entrance of Farringdon to the Holborn Viaduct entrance of City Thameslink.

Is the separation of London Terminals and London Thameslink just yet another one of those weird and incredibly stupid ticketing issues that GBR needs to resolve, instead of reducing services over the summer...

Farringdon should just be classed as a London Terminal and then the whole thing would make sense and the current confusing and anomalous situation would be resolved. But the problem is that the industry wants to capture some of the money people would spend on the Tube to cross London, so it wants the ability to charge extra for going from e.g. Cambridge to London Bridge.

So there would probably would need to be an increase in the cost of London Terminals fares for stations where St Pancras, Kings Cross or the ex-'Southern region' terminals are permitted destinations to offset the loss of London Thameslink marginal revenue. That would clearly be unpopular and arguably unfair for those who only use London Terminals tickets as far as St Pancras from the north or London Bridge from the south.

As with many fares reforms, you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.

For stations from Cambridge to Kings Lynn there is a need for both as a London Thameslink ticket doesn't allow travel to Liverpool Street. On both branches London Thameslink doesn't allow travel to Moorgate.

Which is one of the most bizarre rules out there. If you've paid extra for London Thameslink you shouldn't lose validity to Moorgate or Liverpool Street.

 

[Jovian98]

It's incredibly frustrating not to be able to buy a return ticket from e.g. Cambridge that is valid for Thameslink terminals and Liverpool Street. If for example I want to go to Blackfriars but retain the possibility of returning from Liverpool Street I would need to buy a London terminals ticket, disembark at St Pancras, exit and tap in to do a contactless STP to BFR journey. I can't even stay on the train and buy a QR-code e-Ticket because only paper tickets are available via the apps. If I had bought a London Thameslink return ticket but wanted to return via Liverpool Street I'd have to buy a new single ticket from London to Cambridge.

 

[cornishjohn]

It's incredibly frustrating not to be able to buy a return ticket from e.g. Cambridge that is valid for Thameslink terminals and Liverpool Street. If for example I want to go to Blackfriars but retain the possibility of returning from Liverpool Street I would need to buy a London terminals ticket, disembark at St Pancras, exit and tap in to do a contactless STP to BFR journey. I can't even stay on the train and buy a QR-code e-Ticket because only paper tickets are available via the apps. If I had bought a London Thameslink return ticket but wanted to return via Liverpool Street I'd have to buy a new single ticket from London to Cambridge.

I thought this was what the Cambridge to Zones U12 was for? Its more versatile so it costs more, as is typical in the fare structure.

 

[Jovian98]

It's nearly 20% more expensive which is totally unreasonable for such a journey.

 

[Haywain]

It's nearly 20% more expensive which is totally unreasonable for such a journey.

A weekday Super Off Peak Day Return from Cambridge to London Thameslink is £34.50, and an Off Peak Day Return from Cambridge to Zone U1, route 'Any Permitted' is £39.30 - that is not 20% more. And you could save a little by buying a cross-London journey such as an Off Peak Day Return from Cambridge to Limehouse LTS, route '+Any Permitted', at £38.40.

 

[blimmo]

And you could save a little by buying a cross-London journey such as an Off Peak Day Return from Cambridge to Limehouse LTS, route '+Any Permitted', at £38.40.

That doesn't technically allow you to go to any Zone 1 station though right? Since you are supposed to use the maltese cross on a "reasonable route" still.

 

[Haywain]

That doesn't technically allow you to go to any Zone 1 station though right?

No, but I was responding to the specific example given in post #17 by the poster I was replying to.

 

[Spamcan81]

Is this London Terminals not valid via Farringdon a new thing? Four years ago I travelled from Letchworth to Blackfriars on a London Terminals ticket and had no problem exiting the station. Ticket wouldn’t work the barriers at Farringdon on the return journey but a short walk to City Thameslink and it worked just fine.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is this London Terminals not valid via Farringdon a new thing? Four years ago I travelled from Letchworth to Blackfriars on a London Terminals ticket and had no problem exiting the station. Ticket wouldn’t work the barriers at Farringdon on the return journey but a short walk to City Thameslink and it worked just fine.

You probably got away with it because all London Terminals tickets were, (are?), mag stripe coded the same way, the ticket gates didn't have a way of checking the origin is legit for that ‘terminal’ - it may still be the case.

 

[Haywain]

Is this London Terminals not valid via Farringdon a new thing?

No, it's been in place as long as Thameslink services have been running through St Pancras and, before that, through King's Cross Thameslink.

 

[gembercannelle]

I have been once sold a ticket from Guildford to London Whitechapel routed "not via London". Does this mean that it would be sufficient to avoid all "London terminals"?... My rather layman understanding was that London Whitechapel is in fact in London...

 

[Watershed]

I have been once sold a ticket from Guildford to London Whitechapel routed "not via London". Does this mean that it would be sufficient to avoid all "London terminals"?... My rather layman understanding was that London Whitechapel is in fact in London...

Not via London is the short form that used to be printed under the old ticket format. It's always meant, and now generally shows on the ticket, "not valid via (changing at or passing through) London Terminals".

Travel via stations in Greater London is not only permitted but often expected, for example on journeys where you have a "not via London" fare intended for changing at Clapham Junction.

 

[MikeWh]

I have been once sold a ticket from Guildford to London Whitechapel routed "not via London". Does this mean that it would be sufficient to avoid all "London terminals"?... My rather layman understanding was that London Whitechapel is in fact in London...

Whitechapel is just Whitechapel, not London Whitechapel. Guildford to Whitechapel "not via London" involves changing at Clapham Junction onto the Overground.

 

[XmaX]

I'm resurrecting my own thread.

How about a Cambridge-London Underground Zones tickets? Can I travel with one of those to e.g. London Bridge and then change to tube? Or do I strictly have to follow the validity of a London Terminals tickets and start my tube journey from Kings Cross/St Pancras/Liverpool Street?

 

[Haywain]

I'm resurrecting my own thread.

How about a Cambridge-London Underground Zones tickets? Can I travel with one of those to e.g. London Bridge and then change to tube? Or do I strictly have to follow the validity of a London Terminals tickets and start my tube journey from Kings Cross/St Pancras/Liverpool Street?

Exactly which ticket?