Hence the train shouldn’t be advertised too much for being advanced, they should let the public notice after experiencing the difference the train makes.It's true though. LU might have the newest train, but China has the newer system as a whole. E.g., LU is still using this outdated idea of a driver.
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2024 Tube Stock (Siemens Inspiro London)
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I think it is fair to call it high tech for what this train can/has achieved relative to previous stock. The people saying it is outdated compared to Asian metros seem to be a pessimistic and vocal minority. London Underground is by no means perfect and could do with quite a few upgrades, but the 2024 stock is definitely a step in the right direction.
Also a pet peeve of mine is people calling the LCD screens ‘LED screens’, shame to see the BBC do it as well. Funnily enough, dot matrix displays actually fit into the LED display umbrella better than the LCDs in newer stations and trains.
Also a pet peeve of mine is people calling the LCD screens ‘LED screens’, shame to see the BBC do it as well. Funnily enough, dot matrix displays actually fit into the LED display umbrella better than the LCDs in newer stations and trains.
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I don't see why it would be outdated compared to Asian metros. Siemens know what they're doing and they've always been at the forefront of train development and innovation. It's not for nothing the Chinese have spent decades spying and copying Europe. A bit easy to now say they're ahead of us (which they're not, in most aspects).
Agreed on this, I think most of the people looking down on the 2024 stock and claiming older trains in Asia are better don’t know a thing about engineering. I also wouldn’t be surprised if they think having more LCDs and different temperatures across carriages make the train high-tech.
Lizz line stations have led screen though I think. I remember this being said when they were being built.
boiledbeans2
Member
So what exactly is high-tech or "engineering" about the 2024 stock?
PMSMs? They've been used in Europe since 2012, as I mentioned in post #1683 below:
2024 Tube Stock (Siemens Inspiro London)
Footage from TFL showing train arriving at South Kensington it’s gonna be really interesting to see how the trains stop in the tunnel section as the some of the platforms are shorter the train. The "24" stock stopping diamonds have been installed in most stations, so if you stood at the...
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Air-con? Walk-through carriages? The Glasgow subway has both despite a tighter gauge and smaller trains. IMO, the Glasgow subway trains look sleeker and more futuristic. The 2024 stock still looks old fashioned because of its 90s-era livery.
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I agree. They are just replacement trains (and years overdue). Of course they are an improvement but that's hardly exceptional or unexpected when replacing a 50 years old junk.
That is problem with London. We are spinning stock replacement as some amazing transformative investment.
Investment would be building new lines and stations. How many stations are under construction? How many kilometres of new lines are being build? Of the Underground, DLR or trams?
I prefer the 24 stocks design to the Glasgow subway trains. PMSM hasn’t been used on metro trains outside of Asia, from what I know. But I know it’s used in ev cars as well.So what exactly is high-tech or "engineering" about the 2024 stock?
PMSMs? They've been used in Europe since 2012, as I mentioned in post #1683 below:
2024 Tube Stock (Siemens Inspiro London)
Footage from TFL showing train arriving at South Kensington it’s gonna be really interesting to see how the trains stop in the tunnel section as the some of the platforms are shorter the train. The "24" stock stopping diamonds have been installed in most stations, so if you stood at the...
Air-con? Walk-through carriages? The Glasgow subway has both despite a tighter gauge and smaller trains. IMO, the Glasgow subway trains look sleeker and more futuristic. The 2024 stock still looks old fashioned because of its 90s-era livery.
24 stock doesn’t look old fashioned to me but I do think London Underground is stuck with 90’s era design because that’s when they made big changes to their liveries and train design.
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Yeah I suspect the 24 stock would be blamed for delays just because the signalling isn’t going to also be invested in at the same time as the trains. Just like people, non train enthusiasts, actually associate new trains with being less reliable just because of old infrastructure.
I see the 24 stock as advanced but I know most just see it as a newer train hence that is how it should’ve been shown.
Wouldn’t it be more correct to say that the new Elizabeth line stations in the core and the Heathrow branch have LCD screens, the others have dot matrix LED screens? At least to me, LED screens imply I can see the individual LEDs and therefore can only display text as is the case with dot matrix displays. On the other extreme, the newer LED screens used for billboards and train departure boards are too massive and bright.
The two biggest factors for me are the floating cars and air conditioning. I know floating cars have been used on other rail systems, but I think this is one of the first times it is used in a high-intensity metro environment. It is especially impressive since it removes the need to have single leaf doors at carriage ends, something that has plagued deep Tube stock since forever. As for aircon, I know Glasgow has managed to fit it under the train in a small tunnel before London. However, the Piccadilly line has an extra challenge of having roughly half its route above ground, leaving plenty of time for the train to be heated up. This is why the Central line 1992TS needs tinted windows whilst the W&C don’t. Of course, we will need to see whether the aircon can hold up against the hottest of days, but if it can keep up with the S stock this will be impressive.So what exactly is high-tech or "engineering" about the 2024 stock?
PMSMs? They've been used in Europe since 2012, as I mentioned in post #1683 below:
2024 Tube Stock (Siemens Inspiro London)
Footage from TFL showing train arriving at South Kensington it’s gonna be really interesting to see how the trains stop in the tunnel section as the some of the platforms are shorter the train. The "24" stock stopping diamonds have been installed in most stations, so if you stood at the...
Air-con? Walk-through carriages? The Glasgow subway has both despite a tighter gauge and smaller trains. IMO, the Glasgow subway trains look sleeker and more futuristic. The 2024 stock still looks old fashioned because of its 90s-era livery.
Would it be possible that they weren’t using the right terminology? I think for most passenger information systems around the world, the typed used in the Elizabeth line core would be classed as LCD, not LED. The Japan section of this Wikipedia article shows what I mean. And I would certainly refer to these kinds of panels in computers and monitors as ‘LCD’ not ‘LED’. However, I will stand corrected if anything that can display an image is simply called 'LED screen' in the rail industry.
Why would they replace the Central Line trains so soon after refurbishment? Judging by the state of current TFL funding, it may be decades after CLIP is completed (unless it completely fails). 1973 stock refurbishment was completed in 2001, and 24 stock is entering service about 25 years after that.
LED screens are displays that are made up of an array of LEDs. They are not a continuous panel, so typically can't be used to form images like an LCD display. On the railway you usually find these as dot matrix displays (I'll include an image below).
LCD screens are liquid crystal displays. They're a type of continuous display panel that use liquid crystals and polarisers to emit and modulate light, and can make images. You'd find an LCD in early iPhones (modern ones use OLED displays), TVs, and computer monitors. On the railway, you'd usually find these as more modern displays, like in the Thameslink core or onboard Aventras.
MaidaVale
Member
The type in this image is actually also an LED Array Display similar to a dot-matrix, just a more modern version with smaller, coloured, dimmable LEDs that can show a much wider arrange of pictures than just plain monochrome text. Basically most large displays like this (particularly advertising billboards or the big screens you get at concerts or sports stadiums) just use this more modern version of high-resolution colour dot-matrix LED displays. If you go up close enough to it, you'll still be able to see each pixel is an individual LED.
An example of an LCD display used in rail would be the sort of TFT LCD displays used as platform indicators installed more recently on the Abellio (or ex Abellio) franchises like Greater Anglia and West Midlands Trains (see photo below), which are essentially just bigger or more specialised versions of regular TFT LCD displays you'd find in your TV or computer monitor. The displays both in the Elizabeth Line core (and at Heathrow), onboard Elizabeth Line 345s and those being used onboard the 24 stock are similarly LCD displays (albeit potentially backlit with LEDs, hard to say).
(from the Greater Anglia website, not my photo)
In short, no. Not really. There were some ideal timelines when it may have actually been likely to have gained funding within a few years of (or at the same time as) the 24 stock being introduced, but it's not got any funding as of yet and to be honest I'd be very surprised if it does get funded within the next 5 years at the very least.
The district line springs to mind when the D78 stock was refurbished between 2004 and 2008 and then the withdrawals started from 2014/15 until 2017
I believe that was a conscious decision that it was better to have one type of train on all sub-surface lines (S stock), at the cost of withdrawing D78 before it was fully life-expired (although it was already quite dated), rather than have two mixed stocks on the SSL if the District received different new trains later.
Dstock7080
Established Member
the D Stock refurbishment was scaled back to mostly just saloon cosmetics, rather than mechanical or electrical work.
The cab desk remained the same and not altered as promised. Air cooling was installed however.
Overall, these are the recent/planned gaps between the completion of the last refurbishment and the start of withdrawal. So the median is about 14 years
- D: 2008-2015 - 7 years
- A: 1998-2010 - 12 years
- 1972: 2018-2032 - 14 years
- 1967: 1995-2009 - 14 years
- C: 1994-2012 - 18 years
- 1973: 2001-2027 - 26 years
Form over function as always. This is why car manufacturers are having a whale of a time selling cars more expensive than ever even though they're not necessarily more expensive to build -- it's got screens and ambient lighting everywhere, wow it's really premium ! thinks the customer, when it's actually cheaper to make (and obviously develop) than car interiors from, say 20 years ago, when there were actual materials in there.
An interesting analogy. The sums then suggested replacement offered savings over the additional logistics cost of a mixed fleet. I'd love to know how they costed mass obsolescence at the 30-50 year point though versus replacing approximately 35-40% (unsure of the exact figures) after 10-15 years.
I mean it made sense to unify the sub surface lines under one stock.
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Isn't the dot matrix boards that were located inside the carriages and the side windows technically considered as electrical work or would you still class that as cosmetics?
It would also help if the BBC doesn't make up terms too and present their opinion of them (ie "Futuristic", "High Tech") as a widely regarded fact in the title.
And the people commenting are clueless.
RacsoMoquette
Member
I thought LCD displays were a thing of the past, didn’t the 1973TS refurb the 1995/96TS and originally the 1992TS use unreliable yellow segment for their exterior LCD destination indicators? They were unreliable and especially on the 1992TS, being replaced by LED displays form the mid to late 1990s. Tube Lines replaced the examples on the 73,95 and 96TS. The Networker trains also had green segment LCD displays, they were replaced again with LED ones akin to the 1992TS, the LCD segment displays deteriorated quickly, I recall it was due to sunlight degrading the segments?
Do the Aventra trains and pretty much everything else have TV style displays? What type of displays are they?
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With the 2009TS about 15 years older than the 2024TS by the time it finally enters service, the contrast of modernity will be immense. I find the 2009TS quite similar externally to the 2024TS, the shape of the door windows and the front is somewhat reminiscent, of course the 2024TS is much more modern and looks a better train than the 09 Stock. I fear the 09 Stock may have an early replacement as it will seem so old and outdated once 2024TS is rolled out across the entire deep level lines in the next 10 to 20 years. The lack of walkthrough carriages and outdated scrolling DMI indicators and more importantly air conditioning, will make the carriages stand out like a sore thumb compared to the 2024TS or similar varieties.
Do the Aventra trains and pretty much everything else have TV style displays? What type of displays are they?
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With the 2009TS about 15 years older than the 2024TS by the time it finally enters service, the contrast of modernity will be immense. I find the 2009TS quite similar externally to the 2024TS, the shape of the door windows and the front is somewhat reminiscent, of course the 2024TS is much more modern and looks a better train than the 09 Stock. I fear the 09 Stock may have an early replacement as it will seem so old and outdated once 2024TS is rolled out across the entire deep level lines in the next 10 to 20 years. The lack of walkthrough carriages and outdated scrolling DMI indicators and more importantly air conditioning, will make the carriages stand out like a sore thumb compared to the 2024TS or similar varieties.
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I don't see it. The 2009 Stock has the body shape of the 1992 Stock, and the 2024 has that of the 1995/1996 Stocks.
I think the only thing that might lead to early retirement of 09 stock is the over heated train and failed cooling system. But I think the overheating is also an infrastructural problem mainly.
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Yeah I think it’s only the side window placement, externally, that is similar to the 09 stock. The shape is more like 95/6 stock.
Woah, hold on there! The 72 stock for me has been going 30+ years in its refurbished form. The 2018 works from at least a cosmetic POV have barely changed anything and the current RVAR works are by no means a refurbishment.
IMO we haven't seen a "proper" refurbishment on LU since the d78 themselves were completed. You could argue the 92 CLIP project may just qualify though...
Nym
Established Member
72TS has had “Corrosion Repairs” and “RVAR” (and LED Lighting) Neither were treated as a refurbishment which as you say was last done in the 90s.