Euston Manchester Liverpool electrification plans

[Bodiam]

Browsing the Jan 1959 Trains Illustrated I came across a report on the press trip on the first part of the Styal line. There's a map that was issued at the time showing stages of electrification which includes a number of lines that weren't part of the eventual scheme such as Walsall to Rugeley and Lichfield, Birmingham to Lichfield, Coventry to Nuneaton, Rugby-Leamington-Coventry, Swanbourne-Bletchley-Sandy (link with GN line) and Camden to Broad Street (AC presumably). Also says that the Dudding Hill loop would be electrified to give access to a depot at Cricklewood.

 

[Rescars]

Browsing the Jan 1959 Trains Illustrated I came across a report on the press trip on the first part of the Styal line. There's a map that was issued at the time showing stages of electrification which includes a number of lines that weren't part of the eventual scheme such as Walsall to Rugeley and Lichfield, Birmingham to Lichfield, Coventry to Nuneaton, Rugby-Leamington-Coventry, Swanbourne-Bletchley-Sandy (link with GN line) and Camden to Broad Street (AC presumably). Also says that the Dudding Hill loop would be electrified to give access to a depot at Cricklewood.

Interesting to see Rugby-Leamington-Coventry in the context of electrification pre-Beeching. Rugby-Leamington no longer exists and even reopening Kenilworth between Leamington and Coventry proved more than tortuous.

 

[Transilien]

Browsing the Jan 1959 Trains Illustrated I came across a report on the press trip on the first part of the Styal line. There's a map that was issued at the time showing stages of electrification which includes a number of lines that weren't part of the eventual scheme such as Walsall to Rugeley and Lichfield, Birmingham to Lichfield, Coventry to Nuneaton, Rugby-Leamington-Coventry, Swanbourne-Bletchley-Sandy (link with GN line) and Camden to Broad Street (AC presumably). Also says that the Dudding Hill loop would be electrified to give access to a depot at Cricklewood.

Something interesting that I find is that Liverpool-Manchester never seemed to be considered for electrification at this time.

 

[edwin_m]

Something interesting that I find is that Liverpool-Manchester never seemed to be considered for electrification at this time.

Now you mention it, it does seem surprising considering how many relatively minor routes in the West Midlands were going to be included - and even after it was cut down to what was actually built the ex-LNWR routes radiating from Birmingham did pretty well. Especially so as the work started on the Styal line then went southwards, so one might expect to see something a bit more profligate in the early stages. Clearly Lime Street and its difficult approaches were done, as was the bit in the middle round Newton, but there would have been no capacity to send anything into Manchester Piccadilly and tackling Victoria might have been something of a nightmare.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Browsing the Jan 1959 Trains Illustrated I came across a report on the press trip on the first part of the Styal line. There's a map that was issued at the time showing stages of electrification which includes a number of lines that weren't part of the eventual scheme such as Walsall to Rugeley and Lichfield, Birmingham to Lichfield, Coventry to Nuneaton, Rugby-Leamington-Coventry, Swanbourne-Bletchley-Sandy (link with GN line) and Camden to Broad Street (AC presumably). Also says that the Dudding Hill loop would be electrified to give access to a depot at Cricklewood.

Swanbourne was to be a large marshalling yard for freight avoiding London - the Bletchley Flyover was the only component to be built.

 

[Bevan Price]

Electrifying Liverpool Lime Street - Earlestown - Manchester (Exchange in 1959) would have been pointless unless there was at that time a plan also to electrify the whole Trans Pennine route to (at least) Leeds and York...And some of the Liverpool - Manchester locals ran via Leigh, which would also need to have been electrified - but is now closed.

And remember at that time, the CLC route via Warrington still ran between Liverpool Central & Manchester Central....

 

[Wavertreelad]

I used to live opposite the Edge Hill Gridiron in the 1960's and like most of the freight lines around Edge Hill is was electrified in the very early 1960's but oddly the Bootle Branch was not touched. Whilst a small amount of electric traction appeared on the Edge Hill Circular Line hauling freight and even Freightliner trains on some occassions, the number of electric movements using the upper reaches of the Gridiron in all the years it remained open was probably no more than a handful. The Gridiron closed in about 1972 and most of the rest of the freight lines disappeared when Wavertree Techology Park was built in the mid 1980's.

 

[45Fox]

I always thought it slightly odd that Kidsgrove to Crewe wasn't included in the original WCML electrification.

 

[The Foghorn]

Clearly, failing to deliver the promised improvements isn't a new phenomenon. It's been going on for decades!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

And remember at that time, the CLC route via Warrington still ran between Liverpool Central & Manchester Central....

Good point. The section off the CLC line at Cornbrook Junction into Knott Mill and Deansgate / Manchester Oxford Road would then (late 1950s) still have been electrified at 1500v DC standard.

 

[The exile]

I always thought it slightly odd that Kidsgrove to Crewe wasn't included in the original WCML electrification.

Assuming it wasn’t on the “death list” at the time, it does seem an odd omission.

 

[Helvellyn]

Camden to Broad Street is an interesting one because presumably it would have meant either the Watford DC services became Euston only due to shared tracks with the Bakerloo, or possibly even thinking to transfer the lot to LUL and have Euston as AC only. As to why AC into Broad Street I wonder if the LMR saw an opportunity for longer distance commuting into the City.

 

[thesignalman]

Swanbourne was to be a large marshalling yard for freight avoiding London - the Bletchley Flyover was the only component to be built.

I think (and may be wrong) that we are mixing separate schemes here, perhaps due to the magazine article concerned.

I thought the flyover was part of the 1955 Modernisation Scheme, to re-route freight traffic away from London. Swanbourne Sidings was a sizable World War II marshalling yard - the original layout remained until the 1970s, well grassed over. The whole idea fell flat because freight traffic dwindled country-wide.

Camden to Broad Street is an interesting one because presumably it would have meant either the Watford DC services became Euston only due to shared tracks with the Bakerloo, or possibly even thinking to transfer the lot to LUL and have Euston as AC only. As to why AC into Broad Street I wonder if the LMR saw an opportunity for longer distance commuting into the City.

There was at the time a steam-hauled Tring to Broad Street commuter service, presumably this idea simply sought to convert it to electric operation. There is no reason for it to affect the DC services in any way.

Camden to Maiden Lane was electrified with AC overheads for Freightliner traffic to York Way terminal, which opened in 1965. Only the No2 lines were so treated between Camden Road and Maiden Lane. The overheads survived, unused after traffic ceased, until the much later electrification for passenger services over the No1 lines.

John

 

[Helvellyn]

There was at the time a steam-hauled Tring to Broad Street commuter service, presumably this idea simply sought to convert it to electric operation. There is no reason for it to affect the DC services in any way.

Camden to Maiden Lane was electrified with AC overheads for Freightliner traffic to York Way terminal, which opened in 1965. Only the No2 lines were so treated between Camden Road and Maiden Lane. The overheads survived, unused after traffic ceased, until the much later electrification for passenger services over the No1 lines.

John

I'd forgotten about the electrification to York Way. I wonder if the map the OP was referencing reflected that plan, or it was actually considered to go all the way to Broad Street? My knowledge of that route is negligible - was it four-track all the way to Broad Street to have allowed AC and DC together (but on separate tracks)?

 

[Taunton]

I always thought it slightly odd that Kidsgrove to Crewe wasn't included in the original WCML electrification.

I used to live opposite the Edge Hill Gridiron in the 1960's and like most of the freight lines around Edge Hill is was electrified in the very early 1960's but oddly the Bootle Branch was not touched. Whilst a small amount of electric traction appeared on the Edge Hill Circular Line hauling freight and even Freightliner trains on some occassions, the number of electric movements using the upper reaches of the Gridiron in all the years it remained open was probably no more than a handful. The Gridiron closed in about 1972 and most of the rest of the freight lines disappeared when Wavertree Techology Park was built in the mid 1980's.

Back in the 1970s a writer in Modern Railways had calculated that all the wiring over the sidings at Crewe and Edge Hill which was never used, because everything there was done with diesel shunters, was sufficient to have wired Crewe to Kidsgrove. Having said that, there were no services on that line, passenger or freight, which would have become fully electric powered, all ran beyond the extent of the wiring.

Camden to Broad Street is an interesting one because presumably it would have meant either the Watford DC services became Euston only due to shared tracks with the Bakerloo, or possibly even thinking to transfer the lot to LUL and have Euston as AC only. As to why AC into Broad Street I wonder if the LMR saw an opportunity for longer distance commuting into the City.

Until 1966 there were indeed longstanding commuter services from Tring etc to Broad Street, steam with 2-6-4T locos, replaced for the final few years with Class 24 diesels. The overhead wiring did start along this section from the beginning, to the Freightliner terminal along the North London line

 

[thesignalman]

I'd forgotten about the electrification to York Way. I wonder if the map the OP was referencing reflected that plan, or it was actually considered to go all the way to Broad Street? My knowledge of that route is negligible - was it four-track all the way to Broad Street to have allowed AC and DC together (but on separate tracks)?

It was indeed four-tracked through to Broad Street, and the No1s were often referred to as "Steam" lines and No2s "Electric" in official documents. So AC electrification would probably have been intended to be over the No1s but I would have thought it would have been a separate scheme to that for York Way FLT.

John

 

[Bodiam]

The mention of Cricklewood is interesting in that there seems no reason to have a major electric depot there unless you had plans to electrify the Midland line. I know the Kings Cross line was supposed to be next after Euston - I wonder whether that would have had a link to the GE electric lines - presumably via the Canonbury spur and the North London line to Stratford, already partly electrified as part of the Broad Street scheme? Of course, freight was relatively much more important in the 1950s when all this was being planned.

 

[edwin_m]

The mention of Cricklewood is interesting in that there seems no reason to have a major electric depot there unless you had plans to electrify the Midland line. I know the Kings Cross line was supposed to be next after Euston - I wonder whether that would have had a link to the GE electric lines - presumably via the Canonbury spur and the North London line to Stratford, already partly electrified as part of the Broad Street scheme? Of course, freight was relatively much more important in the 1950s when all this was being planned.

I'm not sure of the history of the Wembley area, but potentially reductions in freight traffic might have freed up space there for a depot on the WCML, making a less convenient and more expensive electrified connection to Cricklewood unnecessary?

 

[Helvellyn]

It was indeed four-tracked through to Broad Street, and the No1s were often referred to as "Steam" lines and No2s "Electric" in official documents. So AC electrification would probably have been intended to be over the No1s but I would have thought it would have been a separate scheme to that for York Way FLT.

John

Thanks for clarifying. Brings up a whole different "what if" scenario if this had happened and we ended up with 310s through to Broad Street as to if/how the 1980s Liverpool Street/Broad Street redevelopment would have panned out.

 

[thesignalman]

I'm not sure of the history of the Wembley area, but potentially reductions in freight traffic might have freed up space there for a depot on the WCML, making a less convenient and more expensive electrified connection to Cricklewood unnecessary?

It is a complex story, but essentially Willesden TMD was built on the site of a former carriage shed which had become redundant with the opening of Willesden Carriage Sidings (actually at Wembley) earlier in the 1950s. There were also, of course, the Down Side Shed and the Up Side Shed at Euston. But no "major electric depot" as such - no need for such a thing.

The TMD dealt with AC electric locomotives and DC EMUs but not AC EMUs - those were maintained at Bletchley TMD, along with the small number of DMUs in use on branches plus those from the Marylebone line (the depot at Marylebone only undertook light work).

John

 

[Bodiam]

It is a complex story, but essentially Willesden TMD was built on the site of a former carriage shed which had become redundant with the opening of Willesden Carriage Sidings (actually at Wembley) earlier in the 1950s. There were also, of course, the Down Side Shed and the Up Side Shed at Euston. But no "major electric depot" as such - no need for such a thing.

The TMD dealt with AC electric locomotives and DC EMUs but not AC EMUs - those were maintained at Bletchley TMD, along with the small number of DMUs in use on branches plus those from the Marylebone line (the depot at Marylebone only undertook light work).

John

Thanks, John. I visited Willesden TMD with the Electric Railway Society in 1977.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The January 1959 Trains Illustrated is absolutely hilarious in retrospect. Despite having a cheery New Year Message from (General) Sir Brian Robertson, Bart., G.C.B., G.B.E., K.C.M.G., K.C.V.O., D.S.O., M.C. Chairman of the British Transport Commission, no less, it is full of signs of impending catastrophe.
Appalling decline in freight carrying during 1958, a long list of line closure proposals, some bizarre news of yet more incompatible rolling stock (Orange Star DMU control systems introduced) and then the electrification report. The last mentioned item laid bare the vast amount of ancillary work needed - track reconfigurations, opening out Stockport Tunnel, 82 out of 92 bridges needing alteration. The Modernisation Plan had budgeted £75million for the LM electrification, including rolling stock. Did they really believe that the early ‘burn rate’ was sustainable and compatible with the full network shown?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Now you mention it, it does seem surprising considering how many relatively minor routes in the West Midlands were going to be included - and even after it was cut down to what was actually built the ex-LNWR routes radiating from Birmingham did pretty well. Especially so as the work started on the Styal line then went southwards, so one might expect to see something a bit more profligate in the early stages. Clearly Lime Street and its difficult approaches were done, as was the bit in the middle round Newton, but there would have been no capacity to send anything into Manchester Piccadilly and tackling Victoria might have been something of a nightmare.

The Newton bit was part of West Coast Electrification north from Weaver Jn in the 1970s.

 

[edwin_m]

The Newton bit was part of West Coast Electrification north from Weaver Jn in the 1970s.

Not having Weaver to Warrington would remove most of the alternative electric routes that Liverpool to Manchester might have offered, and as someone posted above most of the Liverpool to Manchester trains continued beyond.

 

[eldomtom2]

Something interesting that I find is that Liverpool-Manchester never seemed to be considered for electrification at this time.

The 1965 Beeching Major Trunk Routes report gave the potential of electrifying the CLC route as a reason for making Woodhead the main (and perhaps only) Manchester-Sheffield route (as opposed to Hope Valley). If it was electrified, it seems likely that Woodhead would have been converted to AC at the same time, since it was never converted away from DC because there weren't any services running onto AC lines where conversion would save a locomotive change.

 

[Bevan Price]

Harold ("You never been had so good") Macmillan's Tory government encountered financial problems in the ealy 1960s. with rising unemployment following - as now, railway improvements would have been a casualty of political problems.

)Macmillan "retired", successor Alec Douglas Home failed to solve things, leaving a financial mess for Harold Wilson in 1964, etc.)

 

[Dr Hoo]

Harold ("You never been had so good") Macmillan's Tory government encountered financial problems in the ealy 1960s. with rising unemployment following - as now, railway improvements would have been a casualty of political problems.

)Macmillan "retired", successor Alec Douglas Home failed to solve things, leaving a financial mess for Harold Wilson in 1964, etc.)

The very January 1959 magazine that started this thread included an editorial on the parlous financial state of the rail industry. It included reference to the government’s response from Minister of Transport, Harold Watkinson, being that the BTC would have to be “a more compact and efficient system than it is today”.
This triggered the inexorable slide to the Stedeford Committee, Ernest Marples, Richard Beeching, the Reshaping Report and Harold Wilson’s manifesto commitment to “halt major rail closures”.

 

[Bevan Price]

The very January 1959 magazine that started this thread included an editorial on the parlous financial state of the rail industry. It included reference to the government’s response from Minister of Transport, Harold Watkinson, being that the BTC would have to be “a more compact and efficient system than it is today”.
This triggered the inexorable slide to the Stedeford Committee, Ernest Marples, Richard Beeching, the Reshaping Report and Harold Wilson’s manifesto commitment to “halt major rail closures”.

Yes - a promise that "the money industry" virtually forced him to drop.......

I wonder how many good transport ideas Mr Burnham will be allowed to keep?

 

[Transilien]

The 1965 Beeching Major Trunk Routes report gave the potential of electrifying the CLC route as a reason for making Woodhead the main (and perhaps only) Manchester-Sheffield route (as opposed to Hope Valley). If it was electrified, it seems likely that Woodhead would have been converted to AC at the same time, since it was never converted away from DC because there weren't any services running onto AC lines where conversion would save a locomotive change.

What a shame! We could have had a TPE route upgrade 50 years before now! It shows that Dr Beeching wasn’t all wrong.