On June 22nd my son caught the 18:41 Manchester Piccadilly to Norwich which was running 30 mins late from Liverpool. Passengers were told that as it was running late it would bypass Sheffield, which it did. After Chesterfield passengers were advised that due to signal problems the train wouldn’t be stopping at Alfreton. At Grantham passengers were advised that as it was running short of fuel the train would not be stopping at Ely. The train finally arrived in Norwich 14 minutes late. How can a unit run out of fuel, especially as the journey was shortened?
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Running Out of Fuel
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D1537
Established Member
The usual reasons are that the train has been disrupted from its normal diagram, or due to late running has not been able to be fuelled as normal. I note there were multiple cancellations on that EMR route on that day, so that is a possibility.
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
While not significant, the diversion avoiding Alfreton will have taken a longer distance (~10 miles extra), which will account for the 10 miles saved by avoiding Sheffield.
Brightonboy
Member
Presumably it avoided Ely altogether by using the curve (unusual for a passenger working these days, I think?). I wonder how low the tanks were getting and what would have happened had it failed between Ely and Norwich. How would it have been recovered?
D6130
Established Member
It's buried at the side of the fuel tank under the floor of the vehicle. As far as I am aware no reliable system has yet been invented to indicate to the driver the level of fuel in a tank 3-4 feet below him/her.
They manage it on cars, vans and lorries.
That said, I doubt it's information drivers actually need on a regular basis.
I think D6130 was being ironic.
D6130
Established Member
On cars, vans and lorries the driver's seat and dashboard is much closer to the fuel tank in both the vertical and horizontal planes....and on trains the tank could be up to thirty feet behind the driver. Checking the fuel levels is an integral part of depot and stabling point preparation and disposal....but a driver relieving a train at a platform cannot be expected to drop down between the platform and train to check the gauge level. Monitoring of fuel levels is a function of Control.... especially when units have strayed from their booked diagrams due to service disruption.
Although I wouldn't be surprised more modern trains have the information somewhere in the onboard computers, hidden somewhere in the menus of the TMS.On cars, vans and lorries the driver's seat and dashboard is much closer to the fuel tank in both the vertical and horizontal planes....and on trains the tank could be up to thirty feet behind the driver. Checking the fuel levels is an integral part of depot and stabling point preparation and disposal....but a driver relieving a train at a platform cannot be expected to drop down between the platform and train to check the gauge level. Monitoring of fuel levels is a function of Control.... especially when units have strayed from their booked diagrams due to service disruption.
Fuel issues can happen for a number of reasons. Best one was that a unit diagrammed for a run off the depot one early morning hadn't been refuelled by the depot crew and the driver hadn't checked the fuel gauge...
Happened about 2018, 2019. It stranded the train right on the set of points which meant wrong direction running was not possible and clagged up the Chiltern Main Line between Bham and Leamington......
Happened about 2018, 2019. It stranded the train right on the set of points which meant wrong direction running was not possible and clagged up the Chiltern Main Line between Bham and Leamington......
In, I think, 1962, we ran out of fuel with a Warship on the Plymouth to Liverpool, via Hereford, through train, and were rescued (in quite short order, total delay not more than one hour) by a Shrewsbury Black 5, which took us on to Crewe. The guard said it was not the first time it had happened there; it was the longest Warship diagram, and newly introduced. Subsequent trips changed locos at Bristol to a Class 47.
D6130
Established Member
Back in the mid-1990s - when I was a driver at Skipton - one of my colleagues came down from the mess room at Leeds to take a class 142 unit to Morecambe. While walking along the platform, he happened to glance downwards at the sunlit fuel gauge on the leading vehicle and noticed that it was showing virtually empty. After getting down on his hands and knees with an old rag and wiping weeks worth of oil and brake block dust from the gauge glass on the other vehicle, he noticed that there was very little fuel remaining in that tank as well.
Returning to the Station Supervisor's office, he said that he wouldn't be taking that unit as it barely had enough fuel to reach Keighley - let alone Morecambe - and requested - another unit. The Supervisor informed him that there was no other unit available and that he would have to take it. He refused and
the Supervisor made a phone call and requested the attendance of a Traction Inspector. After a few minutes, a Traction Inspector appeared, accompanied by a trainee driver. The TI winked and said "You go back and sit in the messroom. This lad needs some practical experience of assistance procedures!".
Off they went - about 15 minutes late - and, sure enough, the 142's engines shut down in the platform at Keighley. Detonators were placed and red flags shown....and in those pre-electrification days, the following Leeds-Skipton local was a class 144, which slowly propelled the fuel-less 142 to Skipton, dumped it in a siding and then picked-up the passengers again and continued to Morecambe. It's back working to Leeds was cancelled. Considerable disruption ensued for the rest of the day.
Returning to the Station Supervisor's office, he said that he wouldn't be taking that unit as it barely had enough fuel to reach Keighley - let alone Morecambe - and requested - another unit. The Supervisor informed him that there was no other unit available and that he would have to take it. He refused and
the Supervisor made a phone call and requested the attendance of a Traction Inspector. After a few minutes, a Traction Inspector appeared, accompanied by a trainee driver. The TI winked and said "You go back and sit in the messroom. This lad needs some practical experience of assistance procedures!".
Off they went - about 15 minutes late - and, sure enough, the 142's engines shut down in the platform at Keighley. Detonators were placed and red flags shown....and in those pre-electrification days, the following Leeds-Skipton local was a class 144, which slowly propelled the fuel-less 142 to Skipton, dumped it in a siding and then picked-up the passengers again and continued to Morecambe. It's back working to Leeds was cancelled. Considerable disruption ensued for the rest of the day.
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NSE
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The 171’s show the driver the fuel gauge. By extension I would assume that means most/all Turbostar variants do too.
Not entirely sure what you mean here, do 171s have a fuel gauge in the cab or elsewhere inside the vehicle?
All the class 170 Turbostar variants (subclasses) that I've been driving since 2002 don't, the only gauge is the external fuel sight glass, by the fuel tank under the solebar.
185143
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I know of a couple of incidents involving IETs running out of fuel. IIRC one ran out, and one couldn't move as it was going to run out imminently and was in a station.
So it can, and does happen!
So it can, and does happen!
furnessvale
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Running out of fuel was quite common on the trains of wood pulp from Sheerness? to Barrow in Furness in the early days of EWS.
A solution was eventually found. The traffic was taken off rail and transferred to coastal shiping.
As others have already alluded to - fuel level monitoring is largely done by control; rather than traincrew.
Why?
Well what is a driver going to do about it?
It’s not like he can pull into Cullompton Services and self serve a few 1000 litres of diesel when his class 802 indicates it is running low.
Testing is done as a train type enters service; and a fuel range is set for a type of train. That range will have a margin of error built in, and will be determined from testing equivalent to the “worst” duty cycle a type may undergo - but as far as control is concerned that fuel range is the law and must never be exceeded.
So for a Class 165/166 for example that is set at 1200mi
Control’s IT systems keep track of the miles a unit has run since fuelling, and fleet control update the IT systems to say when each unit has been fuelled. Controllers will check at the start of each shift and make sure no units have been accidentally allocated over fuel range. And then through the shift a units allocations are kept up to date with what the train is really doing, and checks should be made at each time those allocations are changed to ensure the unit has enough range remaining to do what you want to swap it to.
Some types, such as 165/166 engines out don’t really make any discernible difference to range. Others it does.
For the Hitachi 800/802s the range is set at 900mi of diesel running if all engines working. That is then proportionally reduced based on number of engines available. The added complication there is keeping track of what miles are on diesel and what are on electric. Again control IT systems should track what is on diesel and electric, but a careful eye needs to be kept out for sudden / unexpected diesel use - maybe OLE is tripped off on a section and signaller authorised train forward on diesel. Upside with the Hitachi sets is they send out an automated alert to control when tanks go below 50% and go below 20%
Other train operators might do things differently, and from some of what I’ve seen of freight operators the Class 66 can report exact fuel levels and those levels get reported back by drivers.
Why?
Well what is a driver going to do about it?
It’s not like he can pull into Cullompton Services and self serve a few 1000 litres of diesel when his class 802 indicates it is running low.
Testing is done as a train type enters service; and a fuel range is set for a type of train. That range will have a margin of error built in, and will be determined from testing equivalent to the “worst” duty cycle a type may undergo - but as far as control is concerned that fuel range is the law and must never be exceeded.
So for a Class 165/166 for example that is set at 1200mi
Control’s IT systems keep track of the miles a unit has run since fuelling, and fleet control update the IT systems to say when each unit has been fuelled. Controllers will check at the start of each shift and make sure no units have been accidentally allocated over fuel range. And then through the shift a units allocations are kept up to date with what the train is really doing, and checks should be made at each time those allocations are changed to ensure the unit has enough range remaining to do what you want to swap it to.
Some types, such as 165/166 engines out don’t really make any discernible difference to range. Others it does.
For the Hitachi 800/802s the range is set at 900mi of diesel running if all engines working. That is then proportionally reduced based on number of engines available. The added complication there is keeping track of what miles are on diesel and what are on electric. Again control IT systems should track what is on diesel and electric, but a careful eye needs to be kept out for sudden / unexpected diesel use - maybe OLE is tripped off on a section and signaller authorised train forward on diesel. Upside with the Hitachi sets is they send out an automated alert to control when tanks go below 50% and go below 20%
Other train operators might do things differently, and from some of what I’ve seen of freight operators the Class 66 can report exact fuel levels and those levels get reported back by drivers.
And then there are hot / cold weather days where drivers are instructed to not shut down the engines as to provide for continued use of HVAC systems to maintain temperature.
Unit is not moving but still burning fuel, so control have allowances for these occurrences, too.
But control is hidden away and not with the unit, and don't know how much fuel has been burnt above the mileage calculation so the unit may still run out unexpectedly.
Unit is not moving but still burning fuel, so control have allowances for these occurrences, too.
But control is hidden away and not with the unit, and don't know how much fuel has been burnt above the mileage calculation so the unit may still run out unexpectedly.
And we can see the fuel level on an 80x on the TMS and on the fuel tank itself providing the sensor is actually working, GWR are normally pretty on top of set swaps leading to issues but I’m sure you know there have been a few instances when things haven’t gone as well, it’s also a lot easier rescuing a turbo that’s run out of fuel than an 80x
Please excuse the ignorance, but why is it easier?
Falcon1200
Established Member
It's quite a while since I was involved in DMU fleet control (pre-privatisation!) but back then it was assumed (I know!) that every unit starting from a fuelling-equipped depot had been fully fuelled unless otherwise advised, and diagrams were planned accordingly.
Statto
Established Member
Diesel engine running out of fuel is not good news for road going vehicles, as you have to bleed the engine so the air is removed from the fuel system, is this the same for trains if they run out of fuel?
whoosh
Established Member
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There has either been disruption on the previous day, meaning the unit may have been outstationed somewhere, or there wasn't time to refuel it.
Or, one of the engines wasn't working and the others were using more fuel moving the whole train around.
A gauge on the tank outside.
Trains with a TMS can have fuel tank information, but it isn't always very accurate. For example 220, 221, and 222 classes will display if the tank is 25-50% full, or 0-25% full. Not that useful!!
DarloRich
Veteran Member
I was on an XC 47 hauled train that ran out of fuel or suffered fuel starvation. Driver was not happy. Chuntering away like mad and moaning that the tank was half full of sludge rather than diesel! I am not sure how he would know this but we waited ages while another loco was rustled up.
At one time, the Class 47 traction, had a reputation for running out on the London to Norwich service. I, when there was an exhibition of rolling stock at a station. Went into the cab of a class 47, and did not see a dial that was a fuel gauge. There was one that had been removed. Which had been used for steam heating.
Not leave a station if they won't make it to the next one?