Help! Fined for failure to collect physical ticket!

[Watershed]

Prior to buying the ticket there was no indication that it would be a physical ticket

Every retailer is required to tell you how you will be receiving your tickets, so you definitely would have been informed before buying your ticket. I appreciate it's easy to miss, but ultimately it would have been there for you to read.

 

[swt_passenger]

Unfortunately I can see the ORR well meant suggestion, if interpreted as “leniency towards accidentally not collecting”, would most likely lead to more people intentionally not collecting.

Another ‘how can you tell the difference’ between accident and intentional problem for staff.

 

[Class73Electro]

Unfortunately I can see the ORR well meant suggestion, if interpreted as “leniency towards accidentally not collecting”, would most likely lead to more people intentionally not collecting.

Another ‘how can you tell the difference’ between accident and intentional problem for staff.

Is there a difference though, if you've paid for the ticket?

 

[Adam Williams]

I don't understand why Trainline would not issue etickets for this journey

I am also interested in whether this behaviour can be triggered for a future date or not.

@kyaadam Can you confirm the exact prices for each of the tickets you originally purchased please?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is there a difference though, if you've paid for the ticket?

You could use a ‘not yet printed’ open return for a few days if not checked on the first journey. It’s dependent on onboard checks happening.

 

[Class73Electro]

You could use a ‘not yet printed’ open return for a few days if not checked on the first journey. It’s dependent on onboard checks happening.

fair enough

 

[skyhigh]

Shame the TE or RPI wasn't as enthusiastic about just issuing the TOD on their Star Mobile machine about fobbing off OP about appealing.

Northern staff can't issue TOD on board - they deliberately decided not to enable the functionality.

 

[Adam Williams]

Northern staff can't issue TOD on board - they deliberately decided not to enable the functionality.

Why?

 

[skyhigh]

Why?

Because "management" decided it would encourage passengers not to collect before they board.

 

[gray1404]

The inspector stopped me before we arrived at Leyland. It took a little while to take down all my details and print the PFN, by the time this was done we had departed Leyland.

Were you given the option of having the PF only issued to Leyland? Or did they just issue it to Preston by default without asking you.

You were stopped before Leyland. The penalty fare should be issued to the next station at which the train is scheduled to call.

The cost of the PF to Preston is higher then if it had only been issued to Leyland.

 

[flitwickbeds]

As a side note - I was pleasantly surprised recently that, on the trip.com app, I could convert a previously-purchased collection (TOD) ticket into an e-ticket. I discovered this when pulling out my phone at the back of a long queue for the ticket machines.

Whether I could have - actually or legally - converted this when on the train, I do not know. This was also for an Off-Peak rather than Advance ticket.

 

[Watershed]

Whether I could have - actually or legally - converted this when on the train, I do not know. This was also for an Off-Peak rather than Advance ticket.

Legally you would have bought the ticket before boarding so if it lets you, then yes it would be valid. I would imagine most on-train scanners are, however, set up to assume that the barcode generation time is the purchase time - even though the two are not necessarily the same.

 

[The exile]

Were you given the option of having the PF only issued to Leyland? Or did they just issue it to Preston by default without asking you.

You were stopped before Leyland. The penalty fare should be issued to the next station at which the train is scheduled to call.

The cost of the PF to Preston is higher than if it had only been issued to Leyland.

Surely a grey area at the very least if there was insufficient time to complete the issuing process before the train had left Leyland. Although the ticket examination started before Leyland, by the time the PF was actually issued the next station was Preston (which was probably to the OP’s advantage in all but a small cost as they then still had a chance of making their connection).

 

[gembercannelle]

You could use a ‘not yet printed’ open return for a few days if not checked on the first journey. It’s dependent on onboard checks happening.

But the tickets in question were advance singles, there is no way they could be used elsewhere...

 

[swt_passenger]

But the tickets in question were advance singles, there is no way they could be used elsewhere...

I was making a general point about the ORR‘s position, which doesn’t seem to consider that ‘forgetting to collect’ can ever be intentional.

 

[gray1404]

Surely a grey area at the very least if there was insufficient time to complete the issuing process before the train had left Leyland. Although the ticket examination started before Leyland, by the time the PF was actually issued the next station was Preston (which was probably to the OP’s advantage in all but a small cost as they then still had a chance of making their connection).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2026 ==


Unlike air tickets, it would be perfectly possible to have printed the ticket off and given it to someone else. On an airline, that would require a massive systems failure not to be spotted before boarding and would be immediately apparent when two people tried to squeeze into the same seat.

The PF is to be issued to the next station at which the train is due to call at the time the passenger is asked for their ticket. It can be to a further station at which the train is due to call with agreement. However the passenger had to be given the opportunity for it to be to the next station call so they receive the lowest possible penalty fare. If there was insufficient time then it can be completed on the platform after alighting.

 

[AlterEgo]

We are getting lost in the weeds here about this Penalty Fare. Smartarse but speculative arguments about whether an inspector should issue the PF to the station the train is currently in aren't going to go anywhere. It is too late for all of that and this is never a successful avenue of appeal.

Instead the OP is best following @furlong advice in posts 23 and 26.

 

[Haywain]

Indeed, never a problem - just the reference is fine, and if you don't have it, they'll happily look you up using your passort.

Does that get you past security as well?

 

[WesternLancer]

We are getting lost in the weeds here about this Penalty Fare. Smartarse but speculative arguments about whether an inspector should issue the PF to the station the train is currently in aren't going to go anywhere. It is too late for all of that and this is never a successful avenue of appeal.

Instead the OP is best following @furlong advice in posts 23 and 26.

very much agree with both points here

Maybe the OP can have a go at doing a basic draft of a letter / E-Mail to Transport Focus that we can then help bash into shape to be sent off - time is of the essence here so this is the next step and needs to be down ASAP.

The clock is ticking on when the payment is due - and if not paid soon the OP will lose the ability to benefit from the £50 discount in payment I assumer - which is why I have advocated to @kyaadam that they need to be paying it whilst we then help with the draft to Transport Focus in the hope that the sum paid will eventually get refunded.

 

[AlterEgo]

very much agree with both points here

Maybe the OP can have a go at doing a basic draft of a letter / E-Mail to Transport Focus that we can then help bash into shape to be sent off - time is of the essence here so this is the next step and needs to be down ASAP.

The clock is ticking on when the payment is due - and if not paid soon the OP will lose the ability to benefit from the £50 discount in payment I assumer - which is why I have advocated to @kyaadam that they need to be paying it whilst we then help with the draft to Transport Focus in the hope that the sum paid will eventually get refunded.

They have already lost the benefit for discount by not paying it in time; it's now £115 as they mention.

 

[WesternLancer]

They have already lost the benefit for discount by not paying it in time; it's now £115 as they mention.

My apols - I mis remembered post #10.
It's bad luck the OP did not find this forum earlier.

 

[Cowley]

We are getting lost in the weeds here about this Penalty Fare. Smartarse but speculative arguments about whether an inspector should issue the PF to the station the train is currently in aren't going to go anywhere. It is too late for all of that and this is never a successful avenue of appeal.

Instead the OP is best following @furlong advice in posts 23 and 26.

As above really.

If it’s not useful to the person seeking advice, then it shouldn’t be in this thread.

Thank you!

 

[gray1404]

My understanding was that the passenger was asked for their ticket before the train arrived at Leyland (not while the train was standing at the platform).

Also worth remembering that the train company is now statute barred from any criminal prosecution here should the OP not pay.

 

[snail]

Okay understood. Prior to buying the ticket there was no indication that it would be a physical ticket, but it does say so in my confirmation email after buying the ticket. And I bought my tickets over a month in advance from the journey.

I strongly suspect that, having used Trainline myself to book similar tickets, the option was presented but not noticed. Followed by a clear confirmation email (that the OP did not read?). As much as I dislike Trainline, why is it their fault if they communicate that the ticket has to be collected after the customer has selected it?

 

[kyaadam]

Last time I was there, the machines were opposite the desks - but they are probably the type that look like advertising screens unless you happen to know they also sell tickets.

You should still have collected the tickets - even at Glasgow.

How long prior to the journey did you make the purchase?

You haven't shared what you wrote in your appeal, but you need to identify why you weren't aware they had to be collected, to demonstrate, for example, that the retail process failed to make this unexpected requirement sufficiently prominent. In other words you shouldn't be penalised for not realising, but the fault lies with the industry for failing to make this requirement sufficiently clear before you bought the tickets. As such, you can refer to earlier parts of the ORR's review e.g. 12, 13, 23 and especially recommendation 2, 35(b).

Were you given the option of having the PF only issued to Leyland? Or did they just issue it to Preston by default without asking you.

You were stopped before Leyland. The penalty fare should be issued to the next station at which the train is scheduled to call.

The cost of the PF to Preston is higher then if it had only been issued to Leyland.

Unfortunately not. The whole situation was quite unexpected. I went on the trainline app to go retrieve my tickets and at that point realised I hadn’t collected. The TE didn’t mention anything about me making sure I collect at the next station I just did my best to at my change but again I didn’t manage to.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2026 ==

We are getting lost in the weeds here about this Penalty Fare. Smartarse but speculative arguments about whether an inspector should issue the PF to the station the train is currently in aren't going to go anywhere. It is too late for all of that and this is never a successful avenue of appeal.

Instead the OP is best following @furlong advice in posts 23 and 26.

Thank you all for your advice it has been very helpful. Like suggested I’m going to draft an email to Transport Focus and once I’ve done that I’ll post it here and if anyone could kindly tell me anything that can be improved that will be much appreciated.

Regarding the PFN I would just like to ask again if there is any way I could arrange something with Northern Railway, such as a payment plan, so that the amount for the PFN won’t increase as I gather the funds to pay it. I am a student and paying the PFN in time will make it hard for me to pay my bills for the month.

 

[WesternLancer]

Unfortunately not. The whole situation was quite unexpected. I went on the trainline app to go retrieve my tickets and at that point realised I hadn’t collected. The TE didn’t mention anything about me making sure I collect at the next station I just did my best to at my change but again I didn’t manage to.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jun 2026 ==


Thank you all for your advice it has been very helpful. Like suggested I’m going to draft an email to Transport Focus and once I’ve done that I’ll post it here and if anyone could kindly tell me anything that can be improved that will be much appreciated.

Regarding the PFN I would just like to ask again if there is any way I could arrange something with Northern Railway, such as a payment plan, so that the amount for the PFN won’t increase as I gather the funds to pay it. I am a student and paying the PFN in time will make it hard for me to pay my bills for the month.

What does the payment request say about who you pay it to? Is it northern that you make the payment to?
Sometimes the payments are made to third party collection agencies.

You could have saved £50 of it straight off by paying within the discounted time period.

You can always ask if you can pay in instalments. They may say yes. That’s something else people will be happy to help you if you draft a request for that.

When do they say you need to pay it by?

 

[gray1404]

Again, can the original poster please confirm if the train had yet pulled into Leyland at the point at which they were asked for their ticket?

This is a crucial point as if it was before the train had stopped at the station platform then they should have been given the option for the penalty fare to only be issued to Leyland (regardless of the practical implications of doing so it's if they were offered the option), not Preston, and if this did not happen then the Penalty Fare was invalid as it was not issued in accordance with the regulations.

 

[transportphoto]

Again, can the original poster please confirm if the train had yet pulled into Leyland at the point at which they were asked for their ticket?

This is a crucial point as if it was before the train had stopped at the station platform then they should have been given the option for the penalty fare to only be issued to Leyland (regardless of the practical implications of doing so it's if they were offered the option), not Preston, and if this did not happen then the Penalty Fare was invalid as it was not issued in accordance with the regulations.

Have we any further lines of appeal? All three have seeming been exhausted before the OP has come to the forum?

 

[WesternLancer]

Have we any further lines of appeal? All three have seeming been exhausted before the OP has come to the forum?

Only to make a case to Transport Focus beyond the appeal process which as you say is now been exhausted

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Only to make a case to Transport Focus beyond the appeal process which as you say is now been exhausted

We should, perhaps, spell out that our proposals are all long shots: I suppose there's an argument that they will buy time for the OP to raise the £100 plus fare that the railway is expecting them to pay but otherwise it seems to me that it's more likely than not that action at this stage will be unsuccessful.