Motorail services in the 1970s

[ChiefPlanner]

This thread might have answered a question I never understood when I was young and spotting in Hampshire in late 1970s and 1980s.

Ford Transit vans were made at Southampton (adjacent to Wide Lane by the airport) and would often be seen in Eastleigh area as a trainload on what looked like car flats, I remember seeing some in BR blue but most wagons were brown, could these have been motorail wagons spare during winter season or when motorail services had been pared back.

FVW flats - locally maintained at Eastleigh and almost all were ex BR carriage based (minus the original body of course) - the odd one might have slipped away for a heavy overhaul and therefore got a repaint in blue , but basically they were kept safe and had not a lot of money spent on them - the odd rotten floor plank maybe replaced !

 

[busesrusuk]

I recall a trip down to Cornwall on the sleeper from Paddington to Penzance when I was a kid and, for some reason, a return from I think St Austell, to Olympia. On arrival at Olympia I recall the car was in a covered van and remember distinctly the staff on the platform asking my sister if she was happy to drive the car off at which she said no and the staff went and got it. I seem to recall that the car was reversed off the train.

 

[MotCO]

I seem to recall that the car was reversed off the train.

All the way from end to end?

 

[75A]

I recall a trip down to Cornwall on the sleeper from Paddington to Penzance when I was a kid and, for some reason, a return from I think St Austell, to Olympia. On arrival at Olympia I recall the car was in a covered van and remember distinctly the staff on the platform asking my sister if she was happy to drive the car off at which she said no and the staff went and got it. I seem to recall that the car was reversed off the train.

For a while there was a service from Surbiton to the West Country, i've got a OO model of one of the vans.

 

[D6130]

For a while there was a service from Surbiton to the West Country, i've got a OO model of one of the vans.

I vaguely remember that. Did it go to Okehampton?

 

[Snow1964]

I vaguely remember that. Did it go to Okehampton?

There was earlier service, 1959 that ran from Nine Elms to Barnstaple. Known as car carrier service before Motorail term was used.

1960 or 1961 to 1964 ran Surbiton to Oakhampton Military sidings using GUV covered vans

 

[Ashley Hill]

For a while there was a service from Surbiton to the West Country, i've got a OO model of one of the vans.

From 1960 to 1964. 8.03 from Surbiton arr Okehampton 12.28. Cars were unloaded in the MoD sidings at the Meldon end of the station. It returned from Okehampton 15.55 arriving into Surbiton 20.11. £20 for car and driver and £4 13s for each additional passenger.

Source- The Okehampton Line by Nicholas & Reeve.

 

[Rescars]

Still known colloquially as the Car Carrier on the LM in the late 1970s

 

[Rover]

Were the cars locked? Who kept hold of the keys and made sure they arrived with the cars?

Surely the keys were left in the cars, who's going to drive off with them? (or am I missing something?)

 

[Ashley Hill]

Surely the keys were left in the cars, who's going to drive off with them? (or am I missing something?)

Can’t say for Motorail but there have been accounts of new cars being being broken into when stood in loops and radios etc being removed.

 

[Rescars]

I recall a trip down to Cornwall on the sleeper from Paddington to Penzance when I was a kid and, for some reason, a return from I think St Austell, to Olympia. On arrival at Olympia I recall the car was in a covered van and remember distinctly the staff on the platform asking my sister if she was happy to drive the car off at which she said no and the staff went and got it. I seem to recall that the car was reversed off the train.

IIRC up Motorails arrived at the platform at Olympia, the carflats /vans were uncoupled, drawn back and shunted into the loading dock with an 08 or similar. This enabled the cars to be driven forwards off the carflats. Assuming that the cars were driven forwards into the vans at the start of the journey and the vans were coupled to the rear of the train, how could the vans have been turned so the cars would be needed reversing out of them at journey's end?

 

[Taunton]

From our experience on the 1966 Newton-le-Willows to Newton Abbot operation, quite some effort was put into driving the cars forwards on the car carriers at both ends, and also hauling them forwards given early experiences with vehicles hauled backwards having the unstressed (unlike the windscreens) rear windows being broken. But notably LMR staff drove the cars both on and off in Lancashire, the WR had you do it yourself both ways in Devon.

 

[bishdunster]

ISTR there was a Motorail service fuom Brockenhurst -Stirling service in tht late 70s-early 80s.

 

[Springs Branch]

From our experience on the 1966 Newton-le-Willows to Newton Abbot operation, quite some effort was put into driving the cars forwards on the car carriers at both ends. . . . . .
But notably LMR staff drove the cars both on and off in Lancashire, the WR had you do it yourself both ways in Devon.

I remember an ex-BR acquaintance of mine was once spinning a yarn about the 'good old days' and the colourful characters he worked with.

One of these was a knockabout old lag, 'been on the railway man & boy', who in the early 1970s was on light duties in the run-up to retirement. In the summer months he was regularly sent off to the Newton-le-Willows Motorail Terminal to help driving the punters' cars onto and off the car flats there. Only fly in the ointment was this old fella had never driven a car nor held a driving licence in his life.

The gist of the raconteur's story was more about "you'd think the management would have checked he could drive a car before sending him off driving other people's cars" - rather than being a "you won't believe what happened next" story (of the clickbait & social media feed ilk). So presumably he managed without banging too many passengers' cars.

I suppose it's not too hard to get the knack of doing just the same couple of manoeuvres over and over again - even for an old dog learning new tricks. And if you're not driving on public roads presumably you don't need a licence? (although motor insurance companies might have had a different opinion!)

It's doubtful this geezer was working there in 1966, but presumably @Taunton's family vehicle was loaded and unloaded at Newton-le-Willows without damage.

 

[Gloster]

ISTR there was a Motorail service fuom Brockenhurst -Stirling service in tht late 70s-early 80s.

It ran until the early 1980s (1981?), I think, and for most of its time, but possibly not the last few years, was combined with the Stirling-Dover. It think the splitting and attachment was done at Olympia, with electric traction being used north of Mitre Bridge.

 

[Rescars]

It's doubtful this geezer was working there in 1966, but presumably @Taunton's family vehicle was loaded and unloaded at Newton-le-Willows without damage.

It's all a long time ago, but I have a dim recollection of over-revving and gear crunching during the loading process when presumably BR staff were doing the driving. Even for experienced hands, some of the cars which turned up must have created a few headaches, such as semi-automatics, column changes, gear shifters sticking out of the dashboard etc - never mind all the possible permutations to prevent accidental selection of reverse.

Reverting to the railway side of the operation, does anyone know how the carflats were attached to the train at Olympia. Did the coaching stock with passengers aboard draw forward and then set back towards the loading dock or were the carflats worked to the rear of the train with a variety of shunt moves. Also, there was a service which ran from Olympia to Totnes and St Austell. How were the cars segregated, so those booked only as far as Devon didn't end up in Cornwall?

 

[Magdalia]

I did this summary of the East Anglia-Scotland motorail service for another discussion recently.

The East Anglia-Scotland motorail has a short but complicated history. It is difficult to trace from the Public timetables, which just gives a map and list of motorail services. It appears to start as a Cambridge-Edinburgh in 1974, when I have the WTT which shows the northbound train as 1S84 2345 SO and southbound as 1E37 2210 SuO.

In 1978 the train served both Harwich and Cambridge at the East Anglian end and switched to Stirling at the Scottish end. I have the WTT which shows the northbound train as 1S56 2210 ThO from Cambridge and 2000 SO from Harwich, and southbound as 1E36 2302 FO to Harwich and 2057 SuO to Cambridge. The following year Cambridge was replaced by Ely, so the northbound train was 1S56 2230 ThO from Ely and 2000 SO from Harwich, and southbound was 1E36 2300 FO to Harwich and 2300 SuO to Ely. Then in 1980 Harwich was dropped and the train ran 2230 ThSO from Ely and 2302 FSuO from Stirling.

In 1981 the northbound end switched to Inverness and the train ran 3 times per week: 2135 MWFO from Ely and 2020 TThO/2135SO from Inverness. As far as I can tell 1982 was the last year when northbound was 1854 WO Ely-Inverness and southbound was 1824 TO Inverness-Ely.

All of the WTTs I have show the trains running via Peterborough, except 1981, when 2020 TThO Inverness-Ely was booked via the Joint Line. So, in the French Drove picture, the train is on its booked route, not a diversion.

 

[thesignalman]

Reverting to the railway side of the operation, does anyone know how the carflats were attached to the train at Olympia. Did the coaching stock with passengers aboard draw forward and then set back towards the loading dock or were the carflats worked to the rear of the train with a variety of shunt moves. Also, there was a service which ran from Olympia to Totnes and St Austell. How were the cars segregated, so those booked only as far as Devon didn't end up in Cornwall?

From my own experience I can confirm the passenger coaches were shunted onto the cars.

And referring to a previous comment, you were entitled to a choice of sleeping compartment or first class compartment with two blankets provided when booking your journey. Sharing the latter would not have been practical so I don't know how that occurred. Maybe the occupants didn't search hard enough.

I remember waking at Carlisle and watching the night station staff having parcel trolley races up and down the platform.

Presumably in the case of separate destinations, the cars were sorted before loading.

John

 

[D6130]

ISTR that there was also a Stirling-Newhaven service for people heading for holidays in France. Was that also combined with the Dover and Brockenhurst portions? If so, there must have been some pretty complicated shunting operations at Willesden and/or Olympia.

 

[Gloster]

ISTR that there was also a Stirling-Newhaven service for people heading for holidays in France. Was that also combined with the Dover and Brockenhurst portions? If so, there must have been some pretty complicated shunting operations at Willesden and/or Olympia.

The original Glasgow-Newhaven service was originally to Eastbourne, but switched in 1964 to Newhaven, but later on it ran from Stirling and it may have originated at some time, or had a portion, from Newcastle. It dated from before the Motorail brand came into use: both the 1963 Eastbourne and the 1964 Glasgow-Newhaven-Dieppe service are referred to as ‘Car-Sleeper. I think that this was withdrawn before the Brockenhurst and Dover service started.

 

[The exile]

And if you're not driving on public roads presumably you don't need a licence? (although motor insurance companies might have had a different opinion!)

You don’t need insurance either if you’re not on public roads (though it’s obviously advisable!). In this case, the insurance companies would surely not have cared as the event would have happened on railway land while being driven by a servant of the railway so would have been the railway’s (ie the government’s) responsibility. The government self insure.

 

[30907]

There was earlier service, 1959 that ran from Nine Elms to Barnstaple. Known as car carrier service before Motorail term was used.

Any more info about that, as I've not seen any other reference? I presume the cars were conveyed on an overnight freight and the passengers by ordinary day train?

 

[CW2]

There was a summer-only York to Inverness motorail, which ran a couple of rounds trips per week. I recall it was diagrammed for a class 40 working throughout, with the same loco working round trips week after week. 40075 is one that I recall. It started the season shiny and ex-works, and a couple of months later it was a tired wreck.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

It's all a long time ago, but I have a dim recollection of over-revving and gear crunching during the loading process when presumably BR staff were doing the driving. Even for experienced hands, some of the cars which turned up must have created a few headaches, such as semi-automatics, column changes, gear shifters sticking out of the dashboard etc - never mind all the possible permutations to prevent accidental selection of reverse.

Reverting to the railway side of the operation, does anyone know how the carflats were attached to the train at Olympia. Did the coaching stock with passengers aboard draw forward and then set back towards the loading dock or were the carflats worked to the rear of the train with a variety of shunt moves. Also, there was a service which ran from Olympia to Totnes and St Austell. How were the cars segregated, so those booked only as far as Devon didn't end up in Cornwall?

At Totnes, the cars were side-offloaded (by their own drivers) onto the main down platform - the station approach road was (and is) level with it. The Totnes carflats were not detached but continued empty to and from St. Austell. It tied up the platform for a long time, although less passenger trains called then and the through lines were available.

 

[sh24]

At Totnes, the cars were side-offloaded (by their own drivers) onto the main down platform - the station approach road was (and is) level with it. The Totnes carflats were not detached but continued empty to and from St. Austell. It tied up the platform for a long time, although less passenger trains called then and the through lines were available.

Imagine the risk assessment for that in todays climate!

 

[Ashley Hill]

At Totnes, the cars were side-offloaded (by their own drivers) onto the main down platform - the station approach road was (and is) level with it

There couldn’t have been much room as there was a long siding (was two) the other side of the down platform at the Plymouth end.

 

[Snow1964]

Any more info about that, as I've not seen any other reference? I presume the cars were conveyed on an overnight freight and the passengers by ordinary day train?

There are 4 pages (blue leaflet) in this blood and custard article, looks like passengers went by separate train having dropped off car.

BloodandCustard - Okehampton Car Carrier 1960-1964

 

[Taunton]

The shunting arrangements seemed to be devised individually for each location. On the trip I described above, at Newton Abbot the siding faced London on the Up side, plus there was a Class 08 pilot, so arrive in the station, pilot on the back, unhook the flats, pull back, propel in, ready to drive off.

But at Newton-le-Willows it had been more complex. Siding on north side faced east, so cars loaded facing that way. The Class 47, which had come up light from Crewe and had to be a WR one to have GWR AWS once it got past Shrewsbury, picked up the coaches, propelled them into the eastbound platform, picked up the passengers, moved forward, back onto the car flats, and pulled the whole formation out onto the eastbound line. There was no shunting loco at N-le-W, but it's still 1966, so a Warrington Black 5 had been sent up, coupled onto the rear, and pulled the whole lot over the crossover and westward, itself tender first, to beyond Earlestown. The 47 then started forward, round the sharp west curve at Earlestown, and on we went.

Did anyone else here have their family car hauled by steam ?

 

[Ashley Hill]

There are 4 pages (blue leaflet) in this blood and custard article, looks like passengers went by separate train having dropped off car.

BloodandCustard - Okehampton Car Carrier 1960-1964

Further on in the article it describes the shunt moves made at both ends to attach/detach the GUVs and passenger coaches.

 

[Gloster]

There couldn’t have been much room as there was a long siding (was two) the other side of the down platform at the Plymouth end.

It looks as though Totnes service started, probably combined with the St Austell service, in 1966, although this is a bit based on not finding information to the contrary rather than definite information. Until 9 August 1966 the entrance to the Down Loop at Totnes was immediately east of the platform end, with the two roads leading into the goods shed being a continuation of the east end of the Loop. From the 9 August the Loop was extended almost to the bridge over the Dart and so there would now have been sufficient length to bring the whole train in and leave the through roads clear while cars were unloaded on to the platform. What they did until 9 August I know not, but most likely it didn’t start until then or the east end had been completed at an early stage of the layout alterations.