Changes to NYMR membership

[mike57]

I have been reading about the new tiered membership options on the NYMR.

Become a Member | North Yorkshire Moors Railway

Join NYMR membership and enjoy exclusive benefits while supporting heritage railway preservation.

www.nymr.co.uk

Standard Tier 1
Our Basic Tier

£60.00
Non Ryedale Memberships

£40.00
Ryedale Memberships

50% discount on Standard Services
5% off in Station Tea Rooms
5% off in Station Shops
Free dog and bike travel
No online booking fees
Digital copies of our members’ magazine, Moors Line

Ambassador Tier 2
£150.00
Non Ryedale Memberships

£100.00
Ryedale Memberships

Free travel on Standard Services
10% off in Station Tea Rooms
10% off in Station Shops
Free dog and bike travel
No online booking fees
Digital copy of our members’ magazine, Moors Line - plus option to collect printed copy at a Station Shop
Free travel at the Annual Steam & Diesel Galas
25% Off Santa Express Services
Invitation to the pre-season NYMR Supporters’ Day
Priority booking on selected ticketed events

Patron Tier 3
Our Top Tier
£500.00
Non Ryedale Memberships

£335.00
Ryedale Memberships

Free travel on Standard Services
10% off in Station Tea Rooms
10% off in Station Shops
Free dog and bike travel
No online booking fees
Printed (sent to your home address) and digital copies of our members’ magazine, Moors Line
Free travel at the Annual Steam & Diesel Galas
25% Off Santa Express Services
Invitation to the pre-season NYMR Supporters’ Day
Priority booking on selected ticketed events
Free car parking for one car

It looks like I am going to be paying more for less if I opt for basic membership as I assume that come renewal my existing membership will need to transfer to one of the new teirs.

What are other peoples thoughts on this.

I understand that the NYMR are facing some stiff financial challenges and need to increase income, but I do have reservations about the approach.

I can see that going to a digital version of Moors Line will make a big saving on production and postage costs, and I would accept that change, but looking at the other changes I can see a situation where people will let their membership lapse comletely.

 

[DarloRich]

I bought the £150 membership and I haven't been a member before mainly because i couldn't afford it or make the visits easily. Seems fine. Free travel on all events is the key benefit imo. I need to make 3.5 trips per year to break even and I have already done 3 of those at the diesel gala so my visits later in the year are profit.

I know it wont be popular because change never is especially where train buffs are concerned! What was the membership arrangement before?

 

[mike57]

What was the membership arrangement before?

£40 per year, 50% off and a paper copy of Moors Line. As I said earlier I can understand the economies of not furnishing paper copies, but I couldn't justify £150, as I only usually manage 1 or 2 visits a year with the steam Gala being my one 'must do', although I missed it last year because I was doing some major roof repairs at home, and our annual holidays were looming with the job potentially being not finished. I like to keep up with what is going on, but really I dont see the benefit from the £60 tier, so will probably pay as I go.

 

[DarloRich]

as I only usually manage 1 or 2 visits a year with the steam Gala being my one 'must do',

but if you visited for multiple days of either gala you will be in profit on the £150 tier ( obviously if you cant then it is a tougher route to profit!)

 

[TastyMaltesers]

The £150 tier seems like a good investment for people who travel several times a year

 

[mike57]

but if you visited for multiple days of either gala you will be in profit on the £150 tier

Yes thats where the problem is as I only visit for 1 day at the steam gala, and usually try and get a visit in at the start of the season as well. It is what is, I as no doubt do most of us have finite limit on 'fun money' and pursue several hobbies/interests, so I look at overall costs.

 

[NER1621]

really I dont see the benefit from the £60 tier, so will probably pay as I go.

The “benefit” is that you are supporting the railway and get a vote at the AGM. That’s what being a member of a preserved railway means, not gaming the system to see which package pays you back in the shortest time: it’s not a Tesco clubcard. I’m a member of three heritage railways and I never claim the travel discounts on any of them - my membership is to support the railway. Other railways I pay the public fares as an ordinary punter.

 

[xotGD]

The “benefit” is that you are supporting the railway and get a vote at the AGM. That’s what being a member of a preserved railway means, not gaming the system to see which package pays you back in the shortest time: it’s not a Tesco clubcard. I’m a member of three heritage railways and I never claim the travel discounts on any of them - my membership is to support the railway. Other railways I pay the public fares as an ordinary punter.

I suggest you are in the minority, taking that approach.

Heritage railways promote the benefits of membership in terms of what you get for your money, and most people do a cost:benefit comparison when deciding whether to join or not. Personally, I think I get my money's worth from KWVR membership (living locally means I can visit as often as I want), and that's why I'm a member. I have no interest in sitting through the AGM to rubber stamp a load of uncontested appointments.

 

[43096]

The £150 tier seems like a good investment for people who travel several times a year

And the £500 tier looks like an appalling investment. For an extra £350 you get a printed copy of the magazine sent to you (rather than collect) and free car parking.

 

[Isle of Mull]

I have no interest in sitting through the AGM to rubber stamp a load of uncontested appointments.

Absolutely, I’m a member of the RPSI (Ireland) and nobody really wants to do AGMs etc

 

[HertiageFan]

Please could someone tell me happened to those with old memberships when the new ones came into effect?
Thank you in advance

 

[Skymonster]

I’m really unsure about the logic of charging members who live further away higher fees. I guess the expectation may be that locals will visit more frequently and thus [hopefully] spend more often on food and beverages, and in the shops, which will make up the difference. However, would-be members from further away incur greater expense travelling to and from the railway, and the higher membership fees are IMO another cost impediment involved in supporting it.

 

[Justin Time]

I’m really unsure about the logic of charging members who live further away higher fees. I guess the expectation may be that locals will visit more frequently and thus [hopefully] spend more often on food and beverages, and in the shops, which will make up the difference. However, would-be members from further away incur greater expense travelling to and from the railway, and the higher membership fees are IMO another cost impediment involved in supporting it.

Spot on there. I live up on the coast near Newcastle, and in the past I’ve done a day trip Newcastle-York-Pickering(bus)-Whitby-Newcastle. A long but enjoyable day. The “day rover” is pointless for me as I can only do the one way journey. Membership is now the only way forward BUT with the membership fee to consider and on top of that charging more to travel in term time when I usually travel as it’s quieter is putting me off.

 

[Egg Centric]

I’m really unsure about the logic of charging members who live further away higher fees. I guess the expectation may be that locals will visit more frequently and thus [hopefully] spend more often on food and beverages, and in the shops, which will make up the difference. However, would-be members from further away incur greater expense travelling to and from the railway, and the higher membership fees are IMO another cost impediment involved in supporting it.

I think there's a decent logic in it at the standard tier but I agree that it makes zero sense to me in the top tier. Bluntly, I know some Londoners who just buy the top tier of everything cause they want the best thing possible. So to the extent that they price discriminate at all, it's by looking at the price of the top tier product and deciding if they want it or not. Meanwhile, almost any Yorkshireman who would even think about spending £335 on membership is in a completely different head space and would also spend £500 on membership. It's an excuse to make a donation while being able to pretend to the wife or oneself that one's buying a useful product.

 

[mike57]

not gaming the system to see which package pays you back in the shortest time: it’s not a Tesco clubcard.

No its not like a clubcard and I dont want to game the system as you put it, but I have a finite amount of 'fun money', and I suspect a lot on here are in a similar situation, no we are not on the poverty line, but its also not a case of money is no object, and I have number of interests, so I do look carefully at 'value for money'

That 'value' will not just be about what I get out of it, but my perception of how I see that organisation contributing to the things that I care about and interest me. If my NYMR membership increases by £20 then it probably means I have £20 less to spend elsewhere, so do I continue, or look around at other worthy organisations?

In specific NYMR terms, they are fairly local, but I dont have a Ryedale postcode, I am about 10 miles away from the boundary. Currently I pay £40 per year, and as a member get 1/2 price (ish) on travel and some events. Lets assume I manage one day visit during the season, with my nephew who isnt a member and pays full price, and then hopefully a visit to the steam gala in the autumn by just me. So my first day costs me around £50 for the tickets and the second day costs me based on last year £22.50, and then £40 membership. NYMR get the membership even if I dont make the steam gala, which I didn't last year (On going roof repairs, and impending bad weather...). So even if life gets in the way they are still getting a level of support.

Looking at the changes I would need to go for the £150 membership, but that is quite a hike from what I am paying now so another organisation will lose out. I am not sure I feel comfortable with that. So if I just attend the steam gala without the membership (which is where I can see it ending up for me) the changes the NYMR have made will actually result in less money from me.

I am not sure that the teired membership is going to workout as NYMR hope, I suspect a lot of people will look at the changes and decide to let their membership lapse

 

[DarloRich]

The biggest issue with the membership is you don't have to give a photo so it is wide open to abuse by wrong uns. At Beamish, for instance, you get free returns for a year with your ticket but you have to have a photo taken and attached to your digital ticket.

I’m really unsure about the logic of charging members who live further away higher fees. I guess the expectation may be that locals will visit more frequently and thus [hopefully] spend more often on food and beverages, and in the shops, which will make up the difference. However, would-be members from further away incur greater expense travelling to and from the railway, and the higher membership fees are IMO another cost impediment involved in supporting it.

they have always offered Ryedale/local residents a discount limited to certain postcode areas irc. I wonder if they have evidence that this will make more local residents use the trains. It seems sensible to me. They are the ones who have to put up with all the visitors impacting their daily life

The “benefit” is that you are supporting the railway and get a vote at the AGM. That’s what being a member of a preserved railway means

I assumed that was a given!

And the £500 tier looks like an appalling investment. For an extra £350 you get a printed copy of the magazine sent to you (rather than collect) and free car parking.

it is an odd one. I don't get it. You do get to go to a garden party though............

It is what is, I as no doubt do most of us have finite limit on 'fun money' and pursue several hobbies/interests, so I look at overall costs.

Absolutely. I am lucky as I have family in the area so can stay for a couple of days for nothing. I wouldn't be buying it otherwise.

I am not sure that the teired membership is going to workout as NYMR hope, I suspect a lot of people will look at the changes and decide to let their membership lapse

they are trying different things to get the money in and help with the cash flow. As I said change is unpopular, especially with train buffs! I have never had a membership before ( and neither has my friend who went to the gala with me and bought a membership) so they are up on the deal in this conversation!

 

[35B]

No its not like a clubcard and I dont want to game the system as you put it, but I have a finite amount of 'fun money', and I suspect a lot on here are in a similar situation, no we are not on the poverty line, but its also not a case of money is no object, and I have number of interests, so I do look carefully at 'value for money'

That 'value' will not just be about what I get out of it, but my perception of how I see that organisation contributing to the things that I care about and interest me. If my NYMR membership increases by £20 then it probably means I have £20 less to spend elsewhere, so do I continue, or look around at other worthy organisations?

In specific NYMR terms, they are fairly local, but I dont have a Ryedale postcode, I am about 10 miles away from the boundary. Currently I pay £40 per year, and as a member get 1/2 price (ish) on travel and some events. Lets assume I manage one day visit during the season, with my nephew who isnt a member and pays full price, and then hopefully a visit to the steam gala in the autumn by just me. So my first day costs me around £50 for the tickets and the second day costs me based on last year £22.50, and then £40 membership. NYMR get the membership even if I dont make the steam gala, which I didn't last year (On going roof repairs, and impending bad weather...). So even if life gets in the way they are still getting a level of support.

Looking at the changes I would need to go for the £150 membership, but that is quite a hike from what I am paying now so another organisation will lose out. I am not sure I feel comfortable with that. So if I just attend the steam gala without the membership (which is where I can see it ending up for me) the changes the NYMR have made will actually result in less money from me.

I am not sure that the teired membership is going to workout as NYMR hope, I suspect a lot of people will look at the changes and decide to let their membership lapse

I'm sure they will. The positioning seems to be another attempt by NYMR management to hike prices, having failed with the fares increases last year (as demonstrated by he heavy discounting that followed).

There seems to be a view at NYMR that membership schemes are of low value to the railway, with a lot of emphasis on the costs of providing them. That boils down to a magazine that has been slated by many members, and which management have chosen to pay to have produced rather than using a volunteer team, and discounted fares where the cost of members' using them is minimal.

The analysis seems to overlook the value of membership schemes as a way of building attachment to the railway, channeling energy and recruiting deeper support (e.g. volunteering, legacies). It's why I've maintained some memberships despite not visiting the railway in question for ages, have one membership that doesn't even get me a discount on the railway, but let my NYMR membership lapse when I felt the relationship had become one way.

 

[SuspectUsual]

That boils down to a magazine that has been slated by many members, and which management have chosen to pay to have produced rather than using a volunteer team, and discounted fares where the cost of members' using them is minimal.

Last time I was at Grosmont I had a flick through the latest edition of their magazine and I was really surprised how poor its become, certainly compared to the Talyllyn and KWVR ones which I look forward to receiving and get a lot of value and enjoyment out of reading

 

[mike57]

I'm sure they will. The positioning seems to be another attempt by NYMR management to hike prices

I understand the need to 'balance the books' and given the scale of the operations they need to be professional in their approach, ways of working which would be fine in a volunteer only small undertaking are not going to work at the NYMR.

After all the operation is a smaller scale version of the problems which face the mainline network. Do you put ticket prices up, frighten off some price sensitive potential customers, but have less bums on seats paying more per person. How much of your costs are related to passenger numbers and how much are pretty much fixed for a given service level. I suspect that the NYMR running costs at a given service level are pretty much fixed and will be almost much the same at 10% occupancy as 90%.

The analysis seems to overlook the value of membership schemes as a way of building attachment to the railway

I think this may be the bit they have missed, but given the scale of operations I feel they may be heading towards an operation more like the Paington and Dartmouth.

I think with an operation like the NYMR the boundaries between 'charitable, preserving heritage' and 'commerial operation' get very blurred and you could almost view it a 24 mile long theme park...

 

[Meole]

Please could someone tell me happened to those with old memberships when the new ones came into effect?
Thank you in advance

Understand my life membership has been cancelled.

 

[mike57]

Understand my life membership has been cancelled.

Doesn't sound very 'fair'. I just have annual membership which expires in Jan 27, I wonder if that is cancelled as well. Under normal circumstances you would expect some sort of refund if something is cancelled part way through, or at least the chance to use the unused portion towards the new membership, but with a life membership it doesnt really work.

 

[35B]

I understand the need to 'balance the books' and given the scale of the operations they need to be professional in their approach, ways of working which would be fine in a volunteer only small undertaking are not going to work at the NYMR.

After all the operation is a smaller scale version of the problems which face the mainline network. Do you put ticket prices up, frighten off some price sensitive potential customers, but have less bums on seats paying more per person. How much of your costs are related to passenger numbers and how much are pretty much fixed for a given service level. I suspect that the NYMR running costs at a given service level are pretty much fixed and will be almost much the same at 10% occupancy as 90%.


I think this may be the bit they have missed, but given the scale of operations I feel they may be heading towards an operation more like the Paington and Dartmouth.

I think with an operation like the NYMR the boundaries between 'charitable, preserving heritage' and 'commerial operation' get very blurred and you could almost view it a 24 mile long theme park...

Suffice it to say that the experience of the last few years suggests that if they're going down the P&D route, they're more likely to end up like the Brixham branch.

They tried hiking prices recently, and then had to discount heavily - a clear sign that the headline price was more than people would pay. Given the limited Whitby paths and their cost base, what surprises me a lot is that they aren't driving hard to drive volume, and pushing non-Whitby operations to make fill the other seats they have.

 

[Djgr]

Suffice it to say that the experience of the last few years suggests that if they're going down the P&D route, they're more likely to end up like the Brixham branch.

Or the dreaded Ffestiniog "experience"

 

[mike57]

Suffice it to say that the experience of the last few years suggests that if they're going down the P&D route, they're more likely to end up like the Brixham branch.

Reading between the lines, I think they have been pretty 'close to the edge' a few times. I suspect the other problem is the cost of Whitby operations, but without Whitby you lose a lot. Dont get me wrong, I wouldn't want to have to try and balance the books given the current issues. Ultimately they are not going to survive on support from 'rail enthusiasts alone, they need to get 'normal' tourists travelling. The only other alternative is a very scaled back operation between Grosmont and Pickering which relies much more on volunteers. The problem is volunteers are a scarce commodity, retirement is a pipe dream for many, and once retired lack of income in a lot of cases will limit options, Another problem the immediate area has a relatively low population, whilst operations like the KWVR have some large metropolitan areas close by with easy access.

 

[35B]

Reading between the lines, I think they have been pretty 'close to the edge' a few times. I suspect the other problem is the cost of Whitby operations, but without Whitby you lose a lot. Dont get me wrong, I wouldn't want to have to try and balance the books given the current issues. Ultimately they are not going to survive on support from 'rail enthusiasts alone, they need to get 'normal' tourists travelling. The only other alternative is a very scaled back operation between Grosmont and Pickering which relies much more on volunteers. The problem is volunteers are a scarce commodity, retirement is a pipe dream for many, and once retired lack of income in a lot of cases will limit options, Another problem the immediate area has a relatively low population, whilst operations like the KWVR have some large metropolitan areas close by with easy access.

My understanding is that operation to Whitby isn't that expensive to run, although it does create some practical constraints around operating practice. What that regular operation has done is to change the market dynamics of the railway, so that it is now very much focused on being about going to Whitby by steam train - something I suspect that NYMR have leaned into, but which also reflects the demand of customers.

As this has happened, the focus on the "internal" section has fallen. That means fewer trains that aren't going to/from Whitby, not running normal carriages on the diners, and not promoting "internal" tickets. The railway is very rural, so there are few attractions en route (and Heartbeat is far less of a draw than it used to be), but it doesn't feel as though it's being sold as much as it could be nowadays.

As a destination, it is not that remote. Pickering is 10 minutes off the A64, and within an hour's drive of Leeds and Bradford. That may not be as convenient as KWVR, but is far easier than say Porthmadog.

Finally, you mention volunteers. NYMR has an unusually high level of reliance on paid staff. Reasons for this are debated, but anecdotes from (ex-)volunteers suggest that the railway as a whole doesn't tend to prioritise the use of volunteers. It is a railway that has long appeared to have a culture of "them" (management at the Park St offices in Pickering) and "us" (those at the sharp end of operating the railway), and I suspect this is having some effect in terms of how priorities are set. In that context, the retirement issues you rightly draw attention to are, I suspect, a side issue compared to the ability to simply recruit and retain volunteers.

 

[HertiageFan]

Understand my life membership has been cancelled.

I hope you are compensated

 

[Harpo]

The only other alternative is a very scaled back operation between Grosmont and Pickering which relies much more on volunteers.

All assuming that the NYMR would want to move from its belief that volunteers are a cost rather than an opportunity, a position exposed by a prominent NYMR leader who used to post on National Preservation.

 

[blackfive460]

Understand my life membership has been cancelled.

Has the railway told you this?
I'm a life member but have heard nothing.

 

[Mr Praline]

I would recommend anyone who believes their Life Membership has been 'cancelled' should contact the NYMR direct. I understand a 10 year renewel cycle has been in place of late but this will be dropped soon so that a life membership is exactly that. Reapplying for life memberships after 10 years helped the NYMR understand just who was still out there i.e. how many 'active' life memberships they had running.

 

[mike57]

All assuming that the NYMR would want to move from its belief that volunteers are a cost rather than an opportunity, a position exposed by a prominent NYMR leader who used to post on National Preservation.

If there was a financial crash, i.e. the operating company became insolvent then those currently in charge wouldn't have much say.

The problem with the NYMR (and other major heritage railways) is that the cost and scale of operations, together with regulatory compliance mean that its got to be a 'business'. Add to that the possibility of major infrastructure failure, which can appear out of nowhere (after all most structures are over 100 years old, with some approaching 200 years), can ruin your financial planning. As with any tourism/leisure related undertaking its very much at the whim of a lot things beyond your control, even simple things like a wet spell can cut foot fall. So its not an easy thing to manage

I don't particularly like the 'put prices up and then discount' approach, but the NYMR is my nearest large heritage railway, and if I visit and see and experience the things that I want I dont have to like the management style behind the operation.

As to continued membership support, having read in more detail about the new membership tiers last night I will not be renewing my membership, and will just pay on the day when I am able/want to visit.