Northern Short Forming Again

[MichaelTrains]

Northern are back to their old tricks of running two-car 150s on Leeds to Nottingham services.

The train I was on earlier had a 158 attached but it was locked out of use due to a fault, so everyone was crammed in the two-car 150.

How is acceptable that Northern deem a 150 an acceptable unit for the weekend passenger numbers?

Completely disgraceful.

The sooner the PM in waiting Andy Burnham sorts this mess out and holds Northern management to account the better.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Even better if Andy Burnham’s government funds platform extensions at Leeds and ensures that Northern’s DMU replacement fleet has a significant growth element.
What are Northern’s management supposed to do in the meantime?

 

[MichaelTrains]

Even better if Andy Burnham’s government funds platform extensions at Leeds and ensures that Northern’s DMU replacement fleet has a significant growth element.
What are Northern’s management supposed to do in the meantime?

Not put two car 150s on a busy Leeds - Sheffield - Nottingham route?

I do feel Andy Burnham will rectify a lot of the anti North transport agendas we've seen from previous governments.

 

[Iskra]

Even better if Andy Burnham’s government funds platform extensions at Leeds and ensures that Northern’s DMU replacement fleet has a significant growth element.
What are Northern’s management supposed to do in the meantime?

Well both of these are likely, P17 seems to be on and the new train order doesn’t include 2 carriage trains, so future trains will be longer where needed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2026 ==

Not put two car 150s on a busy Leeds - Sheffield - Nottingham route?

I do feel Andy Burnham will rectify a lot of the anti North transport agendas we've seen from previous governments.

Would you prefer a two-carriage train or a cancellation?

Northern has recently increased capacity on the Sheffield-Leeds section with the introduction of the Yorkshire Flyer service.

 

[MichaelTrains]

Well both of these are likely, P17 seems to be on and the new train order doesn’t include 2 carriage trains, so future trains will be longer where needed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2026 ==


Would you prefer a two-carriage train or a cancellation?

Northern has recently increased capacity on the Sheffield-Leeds section with the introduction of the Yorkshire Flyer service.

I was travelling Nottingham to Leeds.

So the Yorkshire Flyer service is immaterial if they are just doing to dump nearly 50 year old 150s as replacements for what I presume are faults affecting numerous 195s?

 

[Iskra]

I was travelling Nottingham to Leeds.

So the Yorkshire Flyer service is immaterial if they are just doing to dump nearly 50 year old 150s as replacements for what I presume are faults affecting numerous 195s?

So you’d have preferred a cancellation then?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I was travelling Nottingham to Leeds.

So the Yorkshire Flyer service is immaterial if they are just doing to dump nearly 50 year old 150s as replacements for what I presume are faults affecting numerous 195s?

Is it not the case that your real complaint here is that Northern are using trains that you don't like (150s) on a route that you use rather than using them somewhere else? Reality is that Northern's fleet includes a large number of 150s still and they have to be used somewhere: where would you rather they went and how would you justify any changes in fleet usage to passengers on those other routes?

Of course it was ever thus. Trains last a long time and given that railways are a fairly low political priority in this country there is always going to be somewhere with trains considered by many to be well past their sell-by date even if still technically fit for service. As for newer trains being unreliable that too is, sadly, nothing new either. Such are the joys of competitive tendering against a restricted budget.

 

[JD2168]

Well both of these are likely, P17 seems to be on and the new train order doesn’t include 2 carriage trains, so future trains will be longer where needed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2026 ==


Would you prefer a two-carriage train or a cancellation?

Northern has recently increased capacity on the Sheffield-Leeds section with the introduction of the Yorkshire Flyer service.

The Flyer was cancelled for the majority of this week

There have been some faults on the 195’s this week. On Friday the 12:48pm from Sheffield was largely cancelled after a fault & the 4:38pm from Leeds didn’t run as well for example

 

[Iskra]

195’s get spread over different routes on a Sunday to retain crew competency, so that’s probably why one wasn’t spare. A 150 is better than nothing, and it’s a bit pathetic to whine about an occasional unit substitution when other routes get 150’s as standard, day in, day out.

 

[Farigiraf]

Not put two car 150s on a busy Leeds - Sheffield - Nottingham route?

Northern do this for an actual reason that's not just to spite travellers. That reason, whatever it may be (some sort of rolling stock availability problem) results in the fact that it's either a 150 or a cancellation on this route. It's not great, but as stated in post #2, the only long-term fix is a generous new order of trains for Northern. For the time being, the only alternative action that could've been done is perhaps moving a different service to 150 operation but then the users of that line would be complaining instead.

I do feel Andy Burnham will rectify a lot of the anti North transport agendas we've seen from previous governments.

Please do not get your hopes up. He's only got three years in the leader's seat for now, so not fixing every problem won't necessarily make him a failure. I'm sure that Burnham does want the North to catch up to the South in terms of transport but this won't happen in an instant. Do remember that paying to fix for your local problem on the railways usually means that someplace else with an equally pressing problem gets put on the backburner.

There really isn't much anyone could do (that makes everyone happy) about this in the short term, whether they're working for Northern or HM Government. It's undoubtedly annoying, but that's why we need to support further rail improvements, not give up on rail altogether.

 

[Iskra]

The Flyer was cancelled for the majority of this week

But not today, which is what the poster is talking about.

 

[northernchris]

Not put two car 150s on a busy Leeds - Sheffield - Nottingham route?

I do feel Andy Burnham will rectify a lot of the anti North transport agendas we've seen from previous governments.

In fairness to Northern, the service did have 4 carriages (as most Sunday services do) so it's likely the fault on the 158 had recently developed. That's not to say Northern don't have a significant issue with short forming though, I recently submitted a FoI request around this and my local line is routinely seeing between 15-27%+ of services shortformed monthly.

 

[yorksrob]

I think Northern/DfT acted in haste in binning all their 153's, which has left the current fleet under strain. It was a bit predictable at the time.

 

[MichaelTrains]

I'd happily take a 142/144 pacer attached to a 195/158 if it stops us all from cramming into packed two car trains.

Northern/DfT definitely acted hastily in getting rid of the legacy trains.

 

[YorksLad12]

I do feel Andy Burnham will rectify a lot of the anti North transport agendas we've seen from previous governments.

One of which he was a part of - the one that gave us the no-growth Northern franchise in 2003/04.

 

[Geeves]

I think Northern/DfT acted in haste in binning all their 153's, which has left the current fleet under strain. It was a bit predictable at the time.

During last week's "anything goes" heat related fun let's be fair if the option available was a singular carriage we would've had that. I don't think it was hasty I am glad they are gone (as station staff) one car instead of 4 was hard work, I'd rather it just didn't run!

In the future the trains will be 4 cars as standard... hopefully!

 

[Iskra]

During last week's "anything goes" heat related fun let's be fair if the option available was a singular carriage we would've had that. I don't think it was hasty I am glad they are gone (as station staff) one car instead of 4 was hard work, I'd rather it just didn't run!

In the future the trains will be 4 cars as standard... hopefully!

I don’t think he means that they should run singly. I think he means they would be useful for lengthening other DMU’s as an extra carriage.

 

[Trainman40083]

During last week's "anything goes" heat related fun let's be fair if the option available was a singular carriage we would've had that. I don't think it was hasty I am glad they are gone (as station staff) one car instead of 4 was hard work, I'd rather it just didn't run!

In the future the trains will be 4 cars as standard... hopefully!

Well, if they fit in the platform, anyway

 

[Geeves]

I don’t think he means that they should run singly. I think he means they would be useful for lengthening other DMU’s as an extra carriage.

Of course but what happened in the past when the other 2 or 3 carriages became a demic on arrival at Leeds was the attach set 153 came off Newton Heath and attached to nothing. You're then trying to cram 4 cars worth of people into 1! So yes on those memories I'm glad they can't be pressed into service alone because as that would've happened last week definitely.

I'm not saying they weren't useful when everything went to plan of course

 

[Trainman40083]

Of course but what happened in the past when the other 2 or 3 carriages became a demic on arrival at Leeds was the attach set 153 came off Newton Heath and attached to nothing. You're then trying to cram 4 cars worth of people into 1! So yes on those memories I'm glad they can't be pressed into service alone because as that would've happened last week definitely

Non compliant toilets and the fact it wasn't worth converting them (considering the loss of seats) finished them off

 

[Jamesrob637]

I'd happily take a 142/144 pacer attached to a 195/158 if it stops us all from cramming into packed two car trains.

Northern/DfT definitely acted hastily in getting rid of the legacy trains.

Pacers staying but having to be coupled with a compliant unit. Guaranteed 4-car working.

 

[northernchris]

I think Northern/DfT acted in haste in binning all their 153's, which has left the current fleet under strain. It was a bit predictable at the time.

Adding in the Yorkshire Flyer and the Ashington line without increasing fleet size hasn't helped either

 

[yorksrob]

During last week's "anything goes" heat related fun let's be fair if the option available was a singular carriage we would've had that. I don't think it was hasty I am glad they are gone (as station staff) one car instead of 4 was hard work, I'd rather it just didn't run!

In the future the trains will be 4 cars as standard... hopefully!

Of course but what happened in the past when the other 2 or 3 carriages became a demic on arrival at Leeds was the attach set 153 came off Newton Heath and attached to nothing. You're then trying to cram 4 cars worth of people into 1! So yes on those memories I'm glad they can't be pressed into service alone because as that would've happened last week definitely.

I'm not saying they weren't useful when everything went to plan of course

They'd just as easily end up substituting a missing unit in a formation though. Overall they would have helped to relieve the overstretched fleet.

Adding in the Yorkshire Flyer and the Ashington line without increasing fleet size hasn't helped either

Yes, great to see new services but we need the additional trains as well.

I still feel that the leasing system disincentivises keeping enough rolling stock.

 

[skyhigh]

Pacers staying but having to be coupled with a compliant unit. Guaranteed 4-car working.

In reality when the pacer or coupled unit inevitably failed you'd just be left with the 2 car 15x or the whole thing cancelled as the pacer couldn't work alone. There would be absolutely no guarantee of 4-car working.

 

[The exile]

Non compliant toilets and the fact it wasn't worth converting them (considering the loss of seats) finished them off

Could they not have been used to make three-car sets by placing them into the middle of 156s?

 

[Trainman40083]

Could they not have been used to make three-car sets by placing them into the middle of 156s?

It makes you wonder...In my years of commuting, I always thought a 153 or 156 would get me home.

 

[yorksrob]

Could they not have been used to make three-car sets by placing them into the middle of 156s?

I'd have permanently added them to the 150's to make three carriage units. Northern management have confirmed that 2 carriages aren't really adequate these days.

 

[Trainman40083]

I'd have permanently added them to the 150's to make three carriage units. Northern management have confirmed that 2 carriages aren't really adequate these days.

No reason you cannot have a three car 150. You just split some 150/2s. But then you have less units

 

[The exile]

No reason you cannot have a three car 150. You just split some 150/2s. But then you have less units

Hence inserting 153s instead of binning them off. There are almost certainly more diagrams than just the ones worked by the reformed 150/0s where 2-car is too tight but 4 is over-generous.

 

[yorksrob]

No reason you cannot have a three car 150. You just split some 150/2s. But then you have less units

Exactly, which is why you'd need use the 153's to maintain the same number of units.