Trains in hot countries

[Amalie]

And how would those Saudi operations function in temperatures below zero?

They wouldn’t operate well because their train service was designed to operate in extreme hot but not in cold temperatures. That was obvious. I didn’t intend to praise them in particular, I just used them as an example simply because someone else also used it before. I also do not condone their lack of human rights, but that’s a bit off topic.

This has nothing to do with “this country is better than that country,” their rail systems simply reflect their needs which take in account their climate.

Countries with expected extreme high temperatures would optimise their railways for such climates. The same goes for cold temperatures.

We have the nordic countries and Switzerland have invested in heated switches to ensure that no snowfall can stop them from working while countries like The Netherlands would have had to cancel many services. If it were to snow through the Middle East and Northern Africa, I would expect them to equally struggle with frozen switches in addition to trains and (station) buildings that may struggle to keep warm.

 

[MattSGB]

It appears that the reason that many British and also Belgian trains were getting cancelled is nothing to do with rails but is actually because of air-conditioning. Parts of the fleets do not have air-con, or worse have failed air-con and no opening windows.
In my area, at least a quarter of trains were cancelled, with many more shortened to a single multiple unit. "Coincidentally" before the hot summer weather arrived, many of the multiple units were running around having at least one carriage with a non-functional engine (resulting in air-con shut-off to the rest of the unit).
In particular I am thinking of WMT class 172s that have been running around for months with dead engines. Obviously it isn't just new units either as anyone who has used a 158 in the summer understands. So is the biggest part of the problem the design of air-con in modern units and the lack of opening windows when it fails? Is summer reliability better in countries that have loco-hauled stock?

 

[Bemined]

In the Netherlands rolling stock failures caused a significant number of the cancellations as well, although we also had dozens of track circuit failures last days.

 

[StephenHunter]

The UK is not a "hot country", so the premise is not valid.

The UK is a temperate country which has occasional severe heatwaves, and our infrastructure needs to operate in everything from -15C to +40C.

Which peer countries are you thinking of which have that variation of temperature to consider?

Russia? Sometimes on a single service.

 

[The exile]

They wouldn’t operate well because their train service was designed to operate in extreme hot but not in cold temperatures. That was obvious. I didn’t intend to praise them in particular, I just used them as an example simply because someone else also used it before. I also do not condone their lack of human rights, but that’s a bit off topic.

This has nothing to do with “this country is better than that country,” their rail systems simply reflect their needs which take in account their climate.

Countries with expected extreme high temperatures would optimise their railways for such climates. The same goes for cold temperatures.

We have the nordic countries and Switzerland have invested in heated switches to ensure that no snowfall can stop them from working while countries like The Netherlands would have had to cancel many services. If it were to snow through the Middle East and Northern Africa, I would expect them to equally struggle with frozen switches in addition to trains and (station) buildings that may struggle to keep warm.

But that’s the whole point. “Hot countries” don’t waste money on design for freezing temperatures; cold ones don’t for sauna-like temperatures. In general, during the railway era, the UK hasn’t really needed to do either- and has probably been “caught out” by cold weather for more often over those 200 years than by hot weather. We clearly now need to design for a temperature range 5-10 degrees warmer than we used to, and probably should have been doing so for a good 10 years - but it’s easy to be wise after the event.

 

[eldomtom2]

The UK is not a "hot country", so the premise is not valid.

The UK is a temperate country which has occasional severe heatwaves, and our infrastructure needs to operate in everything from -15C to +40C.

Which peer countries are you thinking of which have that variation of temperature to consider?

Japan has more temperature variation than the UK and their railways are well-known for the reliability. Perhaps we should be looking at how they manage weather conditions.

 

[Amalie]

But that’s the whole point. “Hot countries” don’t waste money on design for freezing temperatures; cold ones don’t for sauna-like temperatures. In general, during the railway era, the UK hasn’t really needed to do either- and has probably been “caught out” by cold weather for more often over those 200 years than by hot weather. We clearly now need to design for a temperature range 5-10 degrees warmer than we used to, and probably should have been doing so for a good 10 years - but it’s easy to be wise after the event.

I’m in complete agreement with you. To me this is logical.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Spain seems to manage successfully - it has a huge range in diurnal and seasonal temperatures. Madrid, 2000ft ASL, is famously roasting in summer and freezing in winter, and I was once stuck in Santander by snow! I am old enough to remember travelling by train there in high summer when not all stock was air-condiitioned - it was not for the faint-hearted!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Spain seems to manage successfully - it has a huge range in diurnal and seasonal temperatures. Madrid, 2000ft ASL, is famously roasting in summer and freezing in winter, and I was once stuck in Santander by snow! I am old enough to remember travelling by train there in high summer when not all stock was air-condiitioned - it was not for the faint-hearted!

Even Spain is not immune: last winter they had unprecedented amounts of rainfall leading to major flooduing and some rail routes were closed for weeks awaiting repairs.

I would suggest a particular issue in this country is the refusal by many people to accept that weather conditions can ever impinge on their daily routine so they become angry when Mother Nature does indeed get in their way. It will take a few generations of experiencing more frequent weather disruptions to eliminate this pattern I suspect. Contrast with the New England states of the US where heavy snowfall is an annual event and when snow warnings are issued people ensure they have suitable supplies bought in and hunker down at home until the blizzard ends.

 

[Flying_Turtle]

They wouldn’t operate well because their train service was designed to operate in extreme hot but not in cold temperatures. That was obvious. I didn’t intend to praise them in particular, I just used them as an example simply because someone else also used it before. I also do not condone their lack of human rights, but that’s a bit off topic.

This has nothing to do with “this country is better than that country,” their rail systems simply reflect their needs which take in account their climate.

Countries with expected extreme high temperatures would optimise their railways for such climates. The same goes for cold temperatures.

We have the nordic countries and Switzerland have invested in heated switches to ensure that no snowfall can stop them from working while countries like The Netherlands would have had to cancel many services. If it were to snow through the Middle East and Northern Africa, I would expect them to equally struggle with frozen switches in addition to trains and (station) buildings that may struggle to keep warm.

Desert temperatures at night can go down to 0 in the winter...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Desert temperatures at night can go down to 0 in the winter...

Though the rails presumably won't cool all the way down overnight as it's too short a period?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I like aircon but if it became standard in this country, the power supply and grid would have to be upgraded too in order to cope.

 

[Sorcerer]

Railways are engineered for the environments they run in. Britain's railway is a Victorian-era system built for a mild oceanic climate with little extremes which is why it struggles with these heatwaves that even ten years ago would've been considered unusual. Similar climates like France, the Benelux region, west Germany and Switzerland have similar problems for that very reason.

All things considered, Britain's railway has improved when it comes to heatwaves since 2003 because buckling incidents aren't as common despite hotter and more frequent heatwaves, and rolling stock has been equipped with air conditioning as well as new routes and stations like the Elizabeth Line where extreme heat was factored into the design. Arguably one of few industries actually adapting in that sense.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I like aircon but if it became standard in this country, the power supply and grid would have to be upgraded too in order to cope.

Or you strongly encourage or even legally mandate it to be fitted alongside solar panels and batteries to store enough power for overnight, then it's free to power and puts no load on the grid whatsoever.

With regard to the railway specifically though, it saves energy because it uses less than the additional consumption caused by drag from open windows.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Or you strongly encourage or even legally mandate it to be fitted alongside solar panels and batteries to store enough power for overnight, then it's free to power and puts no load on the grid whatsoever.

With regard to the railway specifically though, it saves energy because it uses less than the additional consumption caused by drag from open windows.

Let’s agree to disagree.

 

[Flying_Turtle]

Though the rails presumably won't cool all the way down overnight as it's too short a period?

It is a possibility...especially with concrete sleepers acting as heat batteries