My proposal for railcard reform under GBR

[81A]

Edit-Thanks all, given the various issues, I have concluded the original proposals would almost certainly be too difficult and unpopular to implement (and not necessarily desirable anyway).

Spoiler: “original proposals”

As in the title, this is my proposal for the reform of railcards/discounts under GBR. Curious to hear everyone's opinions or counter proposals (and whether people even think these proposals are possible)!

1-introduce a "concessionary" railcard (limited/no restrictions-eligibility and discount level could be discussed)-could cover the Jobcentre Plus/disabled sort of cases, only for those *REALLY* in need of it.

2-introduce a group/family discount to replace Groupsave and the Two Together and Family Railcards (and the Family/group Advances some TOCs have)-giving 20% off for adults, 25% for youth (see below) and 35% for children, with minimum group size of 2 people (the youth/child discounts would be on top of the normal youth/child discount, as with the Family and Friends/Network currently).

3-amend child fares to be up to age 14 and introduce "youth" fares for 15-21 year olds (with ID requirement if needed), replacing the 16-17 and partially 16-25.
The child discount would remain 50% while the youth discount would be 35%.

4 (and the key item)-introduce a loyalty scheme which would work as follows:

Everyone would be able to sign up for free and earn 3 points per pound spent on *ALL* tickets (including seasons etc). Each point would be worth 1p (2p when redeemed on Advance/off-peak) and only valid for buying rail tickets.

Then, there would be "premium" plans available to buy. For example, double points for £20 a year, with options up to a maximum of 6x points at £110/year (not sure about these prices, studies could be carried out to determine the optimal price points). There would also be perks available for those collecting a lot of points per year (a bit like GW rewards; first lounge access, free upgrades, et cetera). There could also be special offers (the "5 extra points if you use an e ticket", "30 extra points if you spend £50 by a certain date" type thing supermarkets/airlines sometimes do).

Of course, there would be winners and losers (all age related and regional railcards would be scrapped), but the aim is to create an affordable (for the railway/taxpayer) and realistic scheme (whilst still expanding the availability of a discount/loyalty scheme to everyone), not an "ideal world where money grows on trees" type proposal.

Anyways, as above I am interested to hear whether people think this is a) realistic, b) affordable for the railway and c) popular enough with the public to get through.

I have come up with an amended set of proposals that attempt to address some of the issues with the original scheme (while still keeping many of the key ideas).

New proposals:
1) introduce a concessionary railcard (as in the first proposal) giving a 40% discount on standard class fares with no time restrictions-available to most/all current disabled, veterans, HM forces and Jobcentre railcard holders. Also available to those who cannot afford rail travel and need to use it to get to work/education/health care/shopping (and cannot easily walk/bus to these facilities).

2) introduce a national leisure railcard giving a 30% discount for up to 2 adults and 50% (on top of the child discount) for up to 4 accompanying children. Only valid on advance and off-peak tickets in standard class. The railcard would cost £90 per year. There would be two named card holders, and both of them could use the railcard by themselves (or accompanied by others, within the max 2 adults and 4 children).

3) make child fares apply through age 18 at the current discount of 50%. To pay these fares, a photocard would be mandatory for children over 15 (stopping most 19/20 year olds “trying it on”).

4) introduce a 10% young persons discount for everyone aged 19-25. Also introduce a 10% elderly discount for those age 70+. These (and the child discount) would be available to those of an eligible age at anytime (subject to obtaining a free photocard in the cases where people are likely to falsely claim the discount).

5) introduce a loyalty scheme giving 5 points per pound spent. Each point would be worth 1p (2p when used on advance/off-peak tickets). There would also be perks for those earning a large number of points per year (first class lounge access, free first class upgrades, et cetera). This would be free to sign up for.

Note-the only combination not allowed would be using both railcards (concessionary and leisure) on one ticket. All other combinations would be allowed. So, for example, a 71 year old could buy a leisure railcard and get their standard 10% off, the 30% railcard discount on top of that and earn loyalty points as well.

Again, interested to hear everyone’s thoughts/counter proposals (and whether people think these updated proposals would be affordable for the railway and popular enough to get through)!

 

[moonarrow458]

As in the title, this is my proposal for the reform of railcards/discounts under GBR. Curious to hear everyone's opinions or counter proposals (and whether people even think these proposals are possible)!

1-introduce a "concessionary" railcard (limited/no restrictions-eligibility and discount level could be discussed)-could cover the Jobcentre Plus/disabled sort of cases, only for those *REALLY* in need of it.

2-introduce a group/family discount to replace Groupsave and the Two Together and Family Railcards (and the Family/group Advances some TOCs have)-giving 20% off for adults, 25% for youth (see below) and 35% for children, with minimum group size of 2 people (the youth/child discounts would be on top of the normal youth/child discount, as with the Family and Friends/Network currently).

3-amend child fares to be up to age 14 and introduce "youth" fares for 15-21 year olds (with ID requirement if needed), replacing the 16-17 and partially 16-25.
The child discount would remain 50% while the youth discount would be 35%.

From what i've understood of this, you are basically proposing reducing discounts for a lot of people.

#3 is particularly egregious, most children will not start working till at least 18, but lets make them pay more - that will hurt cash strapped families hardest. Really the age for child tickets needs raising till 18, and abolish this nonsense of the 16-17 saver. Either children are children till they are 18 or they are not, in which case they should get to vote, buy alcohol and other substances earlier. Legally they are children until they are 18, regardless of what the railway says.

In my opinion it seems like these proposals reduce the social good of the railways and given the railways in the UK are not commercially profitable when all costs are taken into account, you would be reducing the social good of each taxpayer pound.

Or are you proposing to cut fares in response to also cutting discounts.

 

[81A]

From what i've understood of this, you are basically proposing reducing discounts for a lot of people.

#3 is particularly egregious, most children will not start working till at least 18, but lets make them pay more - that will hurt cash strapped families hardest. Really the age for child tickets needs raising till 18, and abolish this nonsense of the 16-17 saver. Either children are children till they are 18 or they are not, in which case they should get to vote, buy alcohol and other substances earlier. Legally they are children until they are 18, regardless of what the railway says.

In my opinion it seems like these proposals reduce the social good of the railways and given the railways in the UK are not commercially profitable when all costs are taken into account, you would be reducing the social good of each taxpayer pound.

Or are you proposing to cut fares in response to also cutting discounts.

All fair points- especially regarding child fares. The idea was to make a modern loyalty/discount scheme available to everyone possible by cutting other discounts (since this would probably impose an unfair initial cost on the taxpayer without making savings in other areas). Perhaps the cuts to current discounts are too drastic to be palatable though...

I suppose one option would be to make the "concessionary" card available to a wider range of people (taking "really need it" further than just disabled/unemployed) since the idea is for it to be very generous (similar to the Jobcentre plus card currently)?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jun 2026 ==

Also, all the discounts in the proposal except the "premium" loyalty card plans would be free (no upfront cost whatsoever). This might help occasional rail users to get better prices? Also, perhaps families could be allowed to share a "premium" subscription, which would help make things more affordable?

Edit-to shorten and make more readable

 

[Llanigraham]

1-introduce a "concessionary" railcard (limited/no restrictions-eligibility and discount level could be discussed)-could cover the Jobcentre Plus/disabled sort of cases, only for those *REALLY* in need of it.

Define "those "REALLY" in need of it? What are your criteria?

 

[JohnofWessex]

My suggestion would be that all National railcards should offer an identical discount for adult fares and so long as you held a valid railcard then you could use a discounted ticket

 

[The Ham]

Being rewarded for the amount you spend on the railway can be a good way to encourage people to spend more money.

Other thingdwhich could be worth doing are:

1) offering an off peak season ticket with options to upgrade on the day to anytime travel for that day.

This would be useful for those who only travel off peak and those who WFH but need to go to work some of the time or students who don't always need to travel at peak times depending on lecture times (where they pay the upgrade on the days they need).

2) have the cost to travel beyond the extent of a season ticket being the cost of the extra return ticket from the last station on their season ticket.

For example with station A to B season ticket rather than paying (say) £20 for the return from station A to station C the cost would be (say) £12 as the return cost from B to C is £40 and the return from A to be is £28.

3) ticket prices should be reviewed so that if there's a split ticket option which makes it cheaper it should be the default. Although, that would only be the case for like for like ticket (so would be anytime with anytime, but not anytime with off-peak)

4) reverse the you can't get a refund on the day on anytime tickets

The combination of the above would likely make the ticketing system feel fairer, and by doing so likely also encourage more travel (and ultimately increase the money paid to the railway).

 

[81A]

Being rewarded for the amount you spend on the railway can be a good way to encourage people to spend more money.

Other thingdwhich could be worth doing are:

1) offering an off peak season ticket with options to upgrade on the day to anytime travel for that day.

This would be useful for those who only travel off peak and those who WFH but need to go to work some of the time or students who don't always need to travel at peak times depending on lecture times (where they pay the upgrade on the days they need).

2) have the cost to travel beyond the extent of a season ticket being the cost of the extra return ticket from the last station on their season ticket.

For example with station A to B season ticket rather than paying (say) £20 for the return from station A to station C the cost would be (say) £12 as the return cost from B to C is £40 and the return from A to be is £28.

3) ticket prices should be reviewed so that if there's a split ticket option which makes it cheaper it should be the default. Although, that would only be the case for like for like ticket (so would be anytime with anytime, but not anytime with off-peak)

4) reverse the you can't get a refund on the day on anytime tickets

The combination of the above would likely make the ticketing system feel fairer, and by doing so likely also encourage more travel (and ultimately increase the money paid to the railway).

I agree that all of these seem sensible if they are indeed revenue positive/neutral (especially in conjunction with a loyalty scheme). I think 3) already exists to some extent (though poorly advertised-you can split at the last station your season is valid, even if the train doesn’t stop).

Edit-removing text basically duplicating my previous post.

 

[yorksrob]

A national railcard would be easier to implement and administer.

 

[TransportHub]

Really GBR needs to simplify tickets, and rail cards are a massive example of complication. I would reduce all tickets (that rail cards can be used on) by 15-20% and abolish all rail cards. Much simpler. Sure some people now have to pay more, but others pay less making things fairer across the board. And simplifying fares is not the same as cheaper fares.

Combine this with a simplification of ticket types and the whole system would be much easier for normals to understand. Ticket types:
*Restricted (basically an advance ticket but renamed for clarity)
*Anytime single (half price of a current return)
*Off peak single
*Unlimited week/month/year

Child versions of the above too

This would also make contactless payments much easier to introduce nationally over time

 

[AlterEgo]

Really GBR needs to simplify tickets, and rail cards are a massive example of complication. I would reduce all tickets (that rail cards can be used on) by 15-20% and abolish all rail cards. Much simpler. Sure some people now have to pay more,

The elderly, disabled, young people, veterans, HM Forces personnel, etc etc. So that renders any proposal unworkable.

 

[81A]

Define "those "REALLY" in need of it? What are your criteria?

This would need to be decided-the idea would be that this railcard would cover the “social good” cases. So, for example, people with disabilities (exact details could be based on the disabled railcard) and people out of work who need the train to look for/start jobs (like the Jobcentre card currently). Eligibility could also be extended to those on very low incomes who need to use the train to get to work/education (covering the “social good” argument for some of the age restricted cards, but making it needs, instead of age, based). Again, this would have to be studied to determine affordability by someone who has access to the figures.
Edit-@AlterEgo thanks for reminding me of the HM forces/veterans railcard users-they could probably be made eligible for the concessionary card as well.

A national railcard would be easier to implement and administer.

True in some ways, as it could use the current infrastructure. I think the issue with a national “1/3 off“ railcard would be that the up front cost would have to be prohibitively high, probably limiting its benefit to current frequent rail users. Whereas people are used to loyalty schemes with airlines, supermarkets, etc and a rail scheme might encourage occasional/one off users to use rail more/again (if they earned points giving a discount on their next trip). Then, the “premium plans” would be available to regular users. I have no idea how affordable this would be (the idea would be for it to make at least some commercial sense, as the key “social good” cases would be covered by the concessionary railcard).

 

[Richardr]

Given that the elderly are much more likely to vote than younger people, scrapping discounts for them will never happen.

 

[JonathanH]

Given that the elderly are much more likely to vote than younger people, scrapping discounts for them will never happen.

it also seems very unlikely that the legislation that protects the senior railcard is going to be changed.

 

[quantinghome]

There's no need to complicate things. It would be far easier to offer a national railcard for everyone. Same 1/3 off discount, but variable prices - £70 standard annual cost, £35 for concessions (i.e. everyone who is currently eligible). As per current arrangements it wouldn't apply to season tickets. And maybe a minimum fare in the morning peak. The standard railcard would also count as a family and friends card.

 

[yorksrob]

This would need to be decided-the idea would be that this railcard would cover the “social good” cases. So, for example, people with disabilities (exact details could be based on the disabled railcard) and people out of work who need the train to look for/start jobs (like the Jobcentre card currently). Eligibility could also be extended to those on very low incomes who need to use the train to get to work/education (covering the “social good” argument for some of the age restricted cards, but making it needs, instead of age, based). Again, this would have to be studied to determine affordability by someone who has access to the figures.
Edit-@AlterEgo thanks for reminding me of the HM forces/veterans railcard users-they could probably be made eligible for the concessionary card as well.


True in some ways, as it could use the current infrastructure. I think the issue with a national “1/3 off“ railcard would be that the up front cost would have to be prohibitively high, probably limiting its benefit to current frequent rail users. Whereas people are used to loyalty schemes with airlines, supermarkets, etc and a rail scheme might encourage occasional/one off users to use rail more/again (if they earned points giving a discount on their next trip). Then, the “premium plans” would be available to regular users. I have no idea how affordable this would be (the idea would be for it to make at least some commercial sense, as the key “social good” cases would be covered by the concessionary railcard).

I guess also that a standard railcard is possibly more accessible for occasional passengers, than rail miles which would benefit those of us who are frequent travellers more.

 

[AlterEgo]

it also seems very unlikely that the legislation that protects the senior railcard is going to be changed.

What legislation is that, out of interest?

 

[JonathanH]

What legislation is that, out of interest?

Section 28 of the Railways Act 1993 currently protects a discount scheme for young, elderly and disabled travellers (my bold text)

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1993/43/section/28

28 Fares and approved discount fare schemes.

(1)A franchise agreement may include provision with respect to the fares to be charged for travel by means of the franchised services.

(2)Subject to the other provisions of this Act, if it appears to the appropriate franchising authority that the interests of persons who use, or who are likely to use, franchised services so require, it shall ensure that the franchise agreement in question contains any such provision as it may consider necessary for the purpose of securing that any fares, or any fares of a class or description, which are to be charged are, in its opinion, reasonable in all the circumstances of the case.

(3)Every franchise agreement shall include provision requiring the franchise operator—

(a)to participate in every approved discount fare scheme,

(b)to charge fares, in cases to which such a scheme applies, at rates which are not in excess of the levels or, as the case may be, the maximum levels set by the scheme, and

(c)otherwise to comply with the requirements of every such scheme,

if and to the extent that the franchised services are services, or services of a class or description, in relation to which the approved discount fare scheme in question applies.

(4)The discount fare schemes which are to be regarded in relation to a franchise agreement, for the purposes of this section as “approved” are those which are from time to time approved for the purposes of this section by the appropriate franchising authority.

(5)In this section—

“discount fare scheme” means any scheme for enabling persons who are young, elderly or disabled to travel by railway at discounted fares, subject to compliance with such conditions (if any) as may be imposed by or under the scheme;
“discounted fare” means a lower fare than the standard fare for the journey in question;
“scheme” includes any agreement or arrangements.

 

[AlterEgo]

Section 28 of the Railways Act 1993 currently protects a discount scheme for young, elderly and disabled travellers (my bold text)

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1993/43/section/28

It doesn't appear to protect railcards, as per sections 1 and 2 it seems conditional, and indeed only binding on government franchises.

 

[JonathanH]

Section 34 of the Railways Bill going through parliament continues this provision under GBR (again my bold text)

https://bills.parliament.uk/publications/66624/documents/8365

34 Discount fare schemes

(1) Great British Railways must provide a scheme enabling persons who are young, elderly or disabled to travel at discounted fares on railway passenger services provided by participants in the scheme.

(2) Great British Railways may provide other schemes enabling travel at discounted fares on railway passenger services provided by participants in the schemes.

(3) A scheme under this section may make the availability of discounted fares subject to compliance with any conditions imposed by or under the scheme.

(4) The Scottish Ministers must make arrangements, in relation to railway passenger services provided under section 31 (3) (a) , enabling persons who are young, elderly or disabled to travel at discounted fares on the services.

(5) The Welsh Ministers must make arrangements, in relation to railway passenger
services provided under section 31 (4) (a) , enabling persons who are young, elderly or disabled to travel at discounted fares on the services.

(6) A public service contract awarded under section 31 —

(a) must require the person to whom the contract is awarded to make arrangements enabling persons who are young, elderly or disabled to travel at discounted fares on the railway passenger services to which the contract relates;

(b) may specify the arrangements to be made, including by specifying that the person to whom the contract is awarded must participate in a scheme provided by Great British Railways under subsection (1) ;

(c) may include other provision about enabling persons who are young, elderly or disabled to travel at discounted fares on the services.

(7) Subsection (6) does not preclude a public service contract awarded under section 31 from including other provision enabling travel at discounted fares on the railway passenger services to which the contract relates.

(8) In this section “discounted fare”, in relation to a railway passenger service, means a lower fare than the standard fare payable for travel on the service.

It doesn't appear to protect railcards, as per sections 1 and 2 it seems conditional, and indeed only binding on government franchises.

Well yes, the term railcard isn't mentioned explicitly but a railcard is just one example of a 'discount fare scheme'. Another approach could be used, but perpetuating the senior railcard is likely to be the easiest way to satisfy the legal requirement.

Effectively GBR can't make a worse provision for the elderly than the Senior Railcard, although its provision could, it appears, be watered down at GBR's discretion.

 

[The Ham]

I agree that all of these seem sensible if they are indeed revenue positive/neutral (especially in conjunction with a loyalty scheme). I think 3) already exists to some extent (though poorly advertised-you can split at the last station your season is valid, even if the train doesn’t stop).

Edit-removing text basically duplicating my previous post.

Whilst you can split your ticket (but not need to stop) what I was suggesting was that you'd pay the top up price for the return ticket from within the season ticket area to the destination rather than the return ticket from between the edge of your ticket to the destination.

For example if you had a season ticket covering Guildford to Woking, and you needed to go to Waterloo:

The cost for a return ticket from Guildford to Woking is £9.30 and so you'd deduct that from the £32.80 for Guildford to Waterloo giving a cost of £23.50.

Rather than paying £28.30 for the return from Woking to Waterloo.

Of course there's going to be some oddities.

For example Basingstoke to Waterloo is £54.60 and Basingstoke to Woking is £25.90, leaving £28.70, yet the cost of Woking to Waterloo is £28.30, so it's already cheaper to split at Woking.

 

[81A]

Whilst you can split your ticket (but not need to stop) what I was suggesting was that you'd pay the top up price for the return ticket from within the season ticket area to the destination rather than the return ticket from between the edge of your ticket to the destination.

For example if you had a season ticket covering Guildford to Woking, and you needed to go to Waterloo:

The cost for a return ticket from Guildford to Woking is £9.30 and so you'd deduct that from the £32.80 for Guildford to Waterloo giving a cost of £23.50.

Rather than paying £28.30 for the return from Woking to Waterloo.

Of course there's going to be some oddities.

For example Basingstoke to Waterloo is £54.60 and Basingstoke to Woking is £25.90, leaving £28.70, yet the cost of Woking to Waterloo is £28.30, so it's already cheaper to split at Woking.

Ah, I see. That would be a good way to encourage leisure travel for season ticket holders (the specially designed boundary zone fares sort of do this in some cases for London Travelcards).

Returning to the original proposal, the legal protections for some of the current discounts combined with the issue of fare rises for some current card holders does seem to firmly answer the "are the proposals reasonably possible/workable" question-no, they are probably not going to be popular or easy to implement in the form I proposed...

I do wonder whether replacing the various regional cards with a national loyalty scheme (like the one I proposed in part 4) would be possible without scrapping the other current discounts though... Since Avanti, LNER, GWR and SWR have all introduced rewards schemes it clearly is being considered.

The thing I am less sure about (and which has not been tried by any TOCs) is scrapping the regional Railcards and introducing "premium" loyalty scheme plans. Would have the plus of being national but the negative of being less flexible than a "cash" discount (unless it did end up being affordable to introduce a national Railcard instead).

 

[Sonic1234]

Anyone have any data on how many tickets at the moment are railcard discounted? I've been on trains where it would appear to be nearly 100%.

Several times I've seen guards scrutinise undiscounted tickets more because the scan noise is unusual.

I do appreciate I'm not a commuter, this is off peak.

 

[Bayum]

1-introduce a "concessionary" railcard (limited/no restrictions-eligibility and discount level could be discussed)-could cover the Jobcentre Plus/disabled sort of cases, only for those *REALLY* in need of it.

What counts as ‘really in need’? I had to prove my disability and difficulty in walking short and long periods to apply for my disabled railcard.

 

[81A]

What counts as ‘really in need’? I had to prove my disability and difficulty in walking short and long periods to apply for my disabled railcard.

The idea was that most (if not all) of the current Jobcentre/disabled holders would be eligible. In addition, I was thinking of using it to cover the "social good" use cases of the Senior/16-25 (and other) cards-perhaps making those who rely on rail to get to education/employment and who would struggle to afford tickets without it eligible.

 

[KHCT]

Forgive me if I've misunderstood your proposals, but it seems to me that almost every adult (including pensioners) would lose access to any form of discount and would have to may more for tickets in return for a loyalty scheme. This seems like a complete non-starter. Surely much easier to just have a single national railcard available to all for a fixed price? That also removes confusion about differing eligibility and validity plus the potential to select the wrong railcard when purchasing tickets as they'd only be one option!

My main issue with the loyalty idea is that it rewards based on spend, not usage. So, someone who uses the train say three times a week for short distances will take a long time to spend as much as someone making one long distance trip. Potentially the regular user (but lower average spender) may feel their business isn't as valued.

 

[81A]

Proposals in post 1 now updated.

Interested to hear everyone’s opinions on the updated version!

 

[NER1621]

a single national railcard available to all for a fixed price?

Or a single national railcard, priced realistically (£100 p.a.?) linked to a loyalty points scheme, where the concession is the price you pay for the railcard: you could issue it free to jobseekers and HM Forces, at a discounted price to young people and those on state benefits including pension credit and attendance allowance, and full price to everyone else (including the over-60s many of whom are pretty well-off and those who aren’t will qualify under the benefits concession).

 

[Llanigraham]

New proposals:
1) introduce a concessionary railcard (as in the first proposal) giving a 40% discount on standard class fares with no time restrictions-available to most/all current disabled, veterans, HM forces and Jobcentre railcard holders. Also available to those who cannot afford rail travel and need to use it to get to work/education/health care/shopping (and cannot easily walk/bus to these facilities).

And how do you propose to implement that? As far as I can see you would need to "means test" each and every ticket application.
Sorry, but totally impractical.

 

[81A]

Or a single national railcard, priced realistically (£100 p.a.?) linked to a loyalty points scheme, where the concession is the price you pay for the railcard: you could issue it free to jobseekers and HM Forces, at a discounted price to young people and those on state benefits including pension credit and attendance allowance, and full price to everyone else (including the over-60s many of whom are pretty well-off and those who aren’t will qualify under the benefits concession).

This may be even better if possible to implement-far simpler than my updated scheme. The big questions are about the popularity/affordability of either of these schemes though...

 

[JonathanH]

Or a single national railcard, priced realistically (£100 p.a.?) linked to a loyalty points scheme, where the concession is the price you pay for the railcard: you could issue it free to jobseekers and HM Forces, at a discounted price to young people and those on state benefits including pension credit and attendance allowance, and full price to everyone else (including the over-60s many of whom are pretty well-off and those who aren’t will qualify under the benefits concession).

If the discount is 33%, it needs to generate 50% more travel to be revenue neutral. A price of £100 will simply favour people who are already predisposed to rail travel, yet still lose the railway revenue. How do you accommodate 50% more travellers on already busy trains with an offer which isn't targetted at using spare capacity?