2024 Tube Stock (Siemens Inspiro London)

[absolutelymilk]

Just discovered section 8.2.6 in this paper in the Board pack regarding first train in service, so could be another year away

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s26563/pic-20260701-item05-part%201-IPR.pdf

I think that was already known:
New Piccadilly line trains delayed for second time

Now the trains have been delayed again and can be expected at some point between December 2026 and June 2027.

 

[Alxxxs]

But the rollout on the Picadilly line is expected to be completed in 2029 right? So there would still be a 3 years gap? Or will most if not all Bakerloo trains likely be already built by 2032 and thus enter the service quite quickly?

 

[Thirteen]

But the rollout on the Picadilly line is expected to be completed in 2029 right? So there would still be a 3 years gap? Or will most if not all Bakerloo trains likely be already built by 2032 and thus enter the service quite quickly?

The Bakerloo Line Upgrade means they need to upgrade depots, stations etc before the new trains can enter service and even if they're built after the Piccadilly Line rollout, they still need to be tested as the Bakerloo is different.

 

[Snow1964]

The Bakerloo Line Upgrade means they need to upgrade depots, stations etc before the new trains can enter service and even if they're built after the Piccadilly Line rollout, they still need to be tested as the Bakerloo is different.

Although it appears 36 trains follow on order for Bakerloo on a one for one replacement basis is close to a done deal (even if not publicly announced), there are other things needed, taken from section 8.3.4

feasibility workstreams including:
(a) development of a fleet migration strategy which details the planned
transition from the existing 72TS to operating the new fleet on the line;
(b) continued surveys along the full extent of the Bakerloo line to gain a
complete understanding of the line’s gauging and potential infringements;
(c) work to continue to develop our depot and stabling locations and concepts;
(d) evolution of the track layout concept at Queen’s Park which is essential for the planned uplift in services in the core of the line.

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s26563/pic-20260701-item05-part%201-IPR.pdf

 

[Alxxxs]

The Bakerloo Line Upgrade means they need to upgrade depots, stations etc before the new trains can enter service and even if they're built after the Piccadilly Line rollout, they still need to be tested as the Bakerloo is different.

But will production likely continue in 2029 and beyond with trains going into storage or will there likely be at least some gap?

 

[Snow1964]

But will production likely continue in 2029 and beyond with trains going into storage or will there likely be at least some gap?

Nobody knows, depends when order is finalised, and if Siemens get order from someone else to build trains at Goole in meantime

The transition from current stock isn't yet worked out, but possible the changeover to new trains will be spread over a year or two, say 2030-2032

 

[GFE]

The Bak line has very tight stabling and train repairs sheds, which seemed to be leading to Tfls apparent plan to close the line for a while for key elements of the upgrade. I had assumed the stock would be swopped over during that time.
This was to be reviewed with prospective infrastructure works contractors at a session held a month or so ago - Haven't seen any official update yet

 

[MaidaVale]

I believe the Bakerloo signaling control and information system has been replaced very recently (which was a big obsolescence concern).

It has, but it's really just a shiny new front end. It's more or less the same new system as the Picc has. The actual guts of the signalling system hasn't actually changed at all really, it's just a room move and replacement of the front-end equipment that the signallers used with a new computer-based one.

 

[Nym]

Given that if the current design of 2024TS is to be used on the Bakerloo. There's nowhere to lift it on the line, and nowhere to put a suitable lifting road without reducing depot capacity.

Something more significant than, "Just swap them over." needs to be done.

 

[RUK]

Given that if the current design of 2024TS is to be used on the Bakerloo. There's nowhere to lift it on the line, and nowhere to put a suitable lifting road without reducing depot capacity.

Something more significant than, "Just swap them over." needs to be done.

Is there any way to get them between the Bakerloo and the Piccadilly line, to use the Piccadilly line’s facilities? I suppose the Central and Waterloo and City lines will eventually need such facilities, too, if they could also be shared with the Bakerloo.

 

[Dstock7080]

Baker Street-Jubilee Line Neasden-Rayners Lane- Acton Town.
No signalling compatibility for Jubilee Line

 

[bluegoblin7]

Nor, of course, the Metropolitan line. Easy enough to do as an overnight, engineering hours move (and happens currently with both 72 and 96 stocks a few times a year) but generally means no other works can take place on those evenings.

 

[Momodou2003]

Is the 24 stock doing testing this weekend?

 

[Alxxxs]

Is the 24 stock doing testing this weekend?

Didn’t see any trains while going from Earls Court to Gunnersbury on the District Line. Seems like there has been no testing for a while now

 

[GFE]

Seems like this weekend was for infrastructure works - some Engineering works trains in use.

 

[starlight73]

There were works trains to the west of Acton Town (sorry this is off topic to the 2024 stock)

image shows yellow battery locomotives and people in orange fluorescent jackets working near Acton Town West Siding

 

[RUK]

happens currently with both 72 and 96 stocks a few times a year

I suppose this means that 2024 Stock will have to do gauging runs along that section of the Jubilee? By the time the Central and W&C lines’ stock gets replaced, it’s probably time for the 1996 Stock to be replaced soon anyway, given how late the 1992 Stock replacement is running, so I suppose that could come in handy for later, if they might want to standardise on 2024 Stock for all Deep Level Tube lines. The Tube Lines PPP was initially Infraco JNP for the Jubilee, Northern, and Piccadilly lines, so I guess those lines are grouped together already? I guess though that the Victoria line will always have bespoke stock to make use of its larger loading gauge.

 

[Wolfie]

I suppose this means that 2024 Stock will have to do gauging runs along that section of the Jubilee? By the time the Central and W&C lines’ stock gets replaced, it’s probably time for the 1996 Stock to be replaced soon anyway, given how late the 1992 Stock replacement is running, so I suppose that could come in handy for later, if they might want to standardise on 2024 Stock for all Deep Level Tube lines. The Tube Lines PPP was initially Infraco JNP for the Jubilee, Northern, and Piccadilly lines, so I guess those lines are grouped together already? I guess though that the Victoria line will always have bespoke stock to make use of its larger loading gauge.

By the time that the 1995 and 1995 stock become due for renewal l'd imagine that the 2024 stock would be technically dated and something better would be sought. Repeating the Southern Region 50/60/70s bulk procurement of obsolescent if not obsolete stock should absolutely be avoided.

 

[GFE]

Indeed, the latest report to the TfL Programmes and Investment Committee says.
'Beyond replacement of the fleet on the Piccadilly and Bakerloo lines, we are starting to consider options for fleet replacement on other deep tube lines to around 2050. The work will consider timing, potential grouping of fleets for procurement as well as the outcomes and the product we will be seeking to achieve for the deep tube.'
So they appear to reconsidering 24 stock for the central line.

 

[Recessio]

Indeed, the latest report to the TfL Programmes and Investment Committee says.
'Beyond replacement of the fleet on the Piccadilly and Bakerloo lines, we are starting to consider options for fleet replacement on other deep tube lines to around 2050. The work will consider timing, potential grouping of fleets for procurement as well as the outcomes and the product we will be seeking to achieve for the deep tube.'
So they appear to reconsidering 24 stock for the central line.

I guess once the 24TS are in full service, there'll be things they realise that they do well and can learn from, and perhaps areas that can be improved upon for future grouped rolling stock orders. Regarding the Central line, I guess also it depends on how much further lifespan the CLIP programme gives them, as to whether they go ahead with potential follow-on 24TS, or if the reliability and RVAR issues are satisfied and so they have less urgency to order new stock so can wait a bit more time (and find some money)

 

[Kite159]

And logically replacing the Central line stock with more of the 24 Stock will reduce costs in the long term due to less spare parts being required. Similar to how the S-Stock replaced the A/C & D stock on the sub surface lines.

 

[GFE]

There is indeed good logic in using 24 stock on the Central line; both trains and signals being Siemens will aid the integration.
Unfortunately the timescales to take up the option on the 24 stock contract does not seem to match the late 2030's timescale for the signalling being ready.
Also the complexity of modifying the Picc & Bak lines infrastructure to accommodate the 24 train design is becoming clearer - so this may also be a factor for the use of this design on other lines.

 

[Silent]

I think it was a big mistake to market the train as futuristic or high tech as it looks like a normal tube train to the non train enthusiast. It’s probably a train that doesn’t need a huge announcement if how new or better it is, non train enthusiasts just need to experience the train over time to appreciate it.

Sure us train enthusiasts know it’s high tech and that high tech isn’t just about screen or information technology, like the commentators seem to think it is.

 

[Snow1964]

Given that if the current design of 2024TS is to be used on the Bakerloo. There's nowhere to lift it on the line, and nowhere to put a suitable lifting road without reducing depot capacity.

Something more significant than, "Just swap them over." needs to be done.

TfL Board Papers covering this by having an agenda item regarding Compulsory purchase of extra land at both Stonebridge Park and Queens Park (land plans attached on link)

The Programme requires upgrades to maintenance facilities at Stonebridge Park Depot (northwest London), alongside enhancements to stabling at Queen’s Park and London Road (Elephant & Castle). While London Underground (LU) own the land currently used for maintaining and stabling the existing 36-train fleet, the new trains have significantly different operational and maintenance requirements. These new facilities require additional space to support safe and efficient maintenance activities to remove equipment off the trains. The existing depot is space constrained; this means that the number of shed roads must be reduced to accommodate these maintenance activities. Consequently, further land acquisition is needed adjacent to the existing LU sites at Queen’s Park and Stonebridge Park to meet stabling requirements across the line. The land and rights (Property Interests) required are shown in Appendices 1A and 1B

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s26726/board-20260708-item08-BLU%20CPO.pdf

 

[vuzzeho]

I think it was a big mistake to market the train as futuristic or high tech as it looks like a normal tube train to the non train enthusiast. It’s probably a train that doesn’t need a huge announcement if how new or better it is, non train enthusiasts just need to experience the train over time to appreciate it.

Sure us train enthusiasts know it’s high tech and that high tech isn’t just about screen or information technology, like the commentators seem to think it is.

I don't agree. Many of my non enthusiast friends have been really looking forward to it. Not a big sample size, I know, but going from the tired, sweaty old Picc trains to a modern, glass-cab-with-LEDs-around-it, air-conditioned, quick-accelerating, quiet, walkthrough, internal-display-having, brightly lit train is a huge futuristic leap forward and people recognise that. The perception is that this will introduce an Elizabeth line level of quality to a line which has had to live with clapped out trains older than a good chunk of the population.

 

[dgl]

I think having air cooling/conditioning on a deep level tube train is pretty futuristic when compared to the rest of the deep level tube stock, add that to the front and design and I don't think they are hyping the 24TS too much.

 

[Mikey C]

I think having air cooling/conditioning on a deep level tube train is pretty futuristic when compared to the rest of the deep level tube stock, add that to the front and design and I don't think they are hyping the 24TS too much.

When something similar happened on the sub surface lines, it was a massive leap forward (especially from the C stock), and they are nowhere near a hot as the deep tubes.

Indeed it's changed people's journey choices, so that on a hot day people will choose a slower S stock journey, just to avoid the heat of the deep tube. I can imagine something similar happening when the 24 stock arrives, as during heat waves the airconditioned Piccadilly Line trains will be so much nicer than even the relatively new Victoria Line 09 stock.

 

[Mawkie]

The perception is that this will introduce an Elizabeth line level of quality to a line which has had to live with clapped out trains older than a good chunk of the population.

Who is going to disabuse them of this perception?

Most of the problems with reliability on the Piccadilly Line come from the clapped out signalling - which is remaining.

All that will change is they'll be sitting in bright air cooled carriages whilst they wait for the signal failures to be repaired instead.

 

[Silent]

I don't agree. Many of my non enthusiast friends have been really looking forward to it. Not a big sample size, I know, but going from the tired, sweaty old Picc trains to a modern, glass-cab-with-LEDs-around-it, air-conditioned, quick-accelerating, quiet, walkthrough, internal-display-having, brightly lit train is a huge futuristic leap forward and people recognise that. The perception is that this will introduce an Elizabeth line level of quality to a line which has had to live with clapped out trains older than a good chunk of the population.

By non enthusiast though, looking at the comments on the video, they don't consider how hard it was to fit air cooling into the trains and compare them with Chinese trains that are apparently much more advanced, in their eyes.

 

[boiledbeans2]

[...] and compare them with Chinese trains that are apparently much more advanced, in their eyes.

It's true though. LU might have the newest train, but China has the newer system as a whole. E.g., LU is still using this outdated idea of a driver.