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Trains in hot countries
- Thread starter hi2u_uk
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The UK is not a "hot country", so the premise is not valid.
The UK is a temperate country which has occasional severe heatwaves, and our infrastructure needs to operate in everything from -15C to +40C.
Which peer countries are you thinking of which have that variation of temperature to consider?
The UK is a temperate country which has occasional severe heatwaves, and our infrastructure needs to operate in everything from -15C to +40C.
Which peer countries are you thinking of which have that variation of temperature to consider?
Bemined
Member
The Netherlands is also suffering from lots of cancellations this week as well as trains being significantly shorter due to defective rolling stock.
U-Bahnfreund
Member
Well in France Intercity trains operated by Corail stock, as well as all régional TER trains between 1000-1800 in Nouvelle-Aquitaine have been cancelled these past days.
And I suspect that the differential between this week’s temperatures and “normal extreme temperatures” (if that’s a contradiction in terms) is lower there than here, even if the absolute temperature is higher.
duesselmartin
Established Member
Germany: Deutsche Bahn recommends to avoid travelling as heat related disruptions are likely.
That would surely be, at a minimum, anywhere of [IE, NL, BE, FR, DE, AT, SI, SK, UA, PL, CZ, DK]. There has of course been much disruption in all of those countries as a consequence of the heatwave, but it would be ludicrous to except Britain from any analysis.
None of those are "hot countries", which is my point. The infrastructure for all those countries has to cope with a wide variation in temperatures.
Your original response suggested you were looking at countries peer to the UK.
I think if you're going to make a totem of 'hot country' you are going to have to define it more specifically at least for yourself. There are a number of what one might consider hot countries where the railway can quite easily face temperatures of -15°C or lower.
To find a fair comparison you’re looking for a country which:
1. Has a railway network with similar traffic density and service frequency
2. Has a comparable expectation of safe operation
3. Has a comparable operational profile in terms of speed
4. Has to cope with a similar temperature range.
I think all of the affected European systems that roughly fulfil the above 4 criteria have been cancelling services and advising people not to travel this week.
My entire point is that the UK and its peer countries are not hot, so the OP is pointless asking about "other hot countries". Saudi Arabia is a hot country, but it is not a peer - why bother comparing? It only ever has to run trains in hot weather.
I asked them to name the peer countries, so we could perhaps compare; after all, it is their question, and their thread! Clearly the OP has some in mind, so it would be worth finding out what they are.
I dont have any other countries in mind . I just hear people complaining that trains are cancelled in the UK because its hot in the UK but in other hot countries ie countries where its normally around 35oC this temperature does not cause them to run less trains. It got me wondering if this is a UK issue and what happens in other countries where 35oC is a normal temperature.
On another point i think the UK is becoming a hot country as it seems that its becoming more common temperatures to reach 35oC every year which i personally think counts as hot. Although at the moment there is thunder and lightening where I am
Pakenhamtrain
Established Member
We do slow down trains in Australia. V/Line will run hot weather timetables because of WOLO speed restrictions. Metro will reduce to 70km/h when it gets too hot.
There will be cancellations due to faulty trains.
There will be cancellations due to faulty trains.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's because we prestress rails to a temperature based on what we usually experience, high 30s is not that. They prestress to a higher temperature, or redo it twice a year to go between summer and winter if they're somewhere that gets hot in summer but cold in winter.
If this becomes the norm we will need to rethink how we do it. It's not a lack of competence or anything like that, it's because climate change is genuinely causing the UK's weather pattern to change significantly.
As I understand it, tge issue with the trains is not so much the absolute temperature as the difference between the actual temperature and the normal range for which it was designed (the same applying to extreme winter conditions). To a certain extent the same will apply to staff as well (I imagine that people in Djakarta or Kuala Lumpur would have coped with the conditions last night rather better than I did!)
I doubt trains designed for the railway linking Kinshasa to the coast would cope very well with a Scottish winter, let alone make it through to Narvik in January.
Do we need to look at making our infrastructure higher-temperature proof - yes. Are we prepared to pay for it - I doubt it.
This is interesting. Do the public complain about this
Slovakia has a wide temperature range from frequent summer high 30s (especially in the western capital and the eastern second city) to winter temperatures plummeting to the minus 20s). I don't recall any significant delays (other than the usual) even on the many times that I have travelled in the upper temperature ranges. I ran an AI query and indeed western European railways do suffer much more due to high temperatures. I guess the temperature range is factored into the engineering is Eastern Europe?
U-Bahnfreund
Member
I wouldn't trust AI.
We're becoming a wetter country, which I suspect will cause more problems.
Then, with the unpredictability of climate change, we could become a frozen country if the gulf stream ceases. That will be interesting.
Flying_Turtle
Member
- Joined
- 4 Apr 2016
- Messages
- 194
In Portugal we may get a few speed estrictions here and there but we keep running!
In Arizona, USA, you can get that variation in 24 hours between day and night. Not an issue for the BNSF main Chicago to LA line that runs some of the highest speeds in the USA across the state.
The railway in Australia across the Sydney Harbour bridge must have comparable provision. I've not looked at the rails provision, but on the footpath alongside the expansion joint at landfall showed by witness marks it must expand/contract several metres between temperature differentials.
Pakenhamtrain
Established Member
We all accept it. Australia in summer gets hot. But it takes the critical rail temperature to hit 55c before anything starts slowing down. 42 ambient is when WOLO 70 happens.
I would dare to suggest that a) we have generally much higher line speeds and service frequencies (and therefore more continuously welded rail and b) have a tougher safety regime. Apologies if any Slovaks wish to take issue.
The reality is that Britain's railway is not designed to cope with the temperatures that are now becoming increasingly common during summer. We must adapt rather than continue to treat these as outliers.
Air conditioning needs to become an increasing focus in train procurement, and especially maintenance in the run-up to summer. When trains are overhauled the opportunity should be taken to replace outdated or inadequate systems (e.g. those on the 158s, which will remain in service for quite some time yet).
A well-organised railway would have off-the-shelf timetables not only ready for such foreseeable events but crucially published, so that people know what to expect. The current haphazard approach of different TOCs reacting in uncoordinated ways that the public can't easily predict, is causing unnecessary uncertainty and ultimately economic damage as people cancel events etc.
For example on Thursday I was at a regular weekly event I attend, but lots of people didn't attend purely because of the perceived unreliability of the trains. It wasn't that they weren't running, but the constant chopping and changing and negative messages put them off. That's caused a loss of revenue and also a loss to the economy as those people didn't go out to the pub afterwards for example.
Air conditioning needs to become an increasing focus in train procurement, and especially maintenance in the run-up to summer. When trains are overhauled the opportunity should be taken to replace outdated or inadequate systems (e.g. those on the 158s, which will remain in service for quite some time yet).
A well-organised railway would have off-the-shelf timetables not only ready for such foreseeable events but crucially published, so that people know what to expect. The current haphazard approach of different TOCs reacting in uncoordinated ways that the public can't easily predict, is causing unnecessary uncertainty and ultimately economic damage as people cancel events etc.
For example on Thursday I was at a regular weekly event I attend, but lots of people didn't attend purely because of the perceived unreliability of the trains. It wasn't that they weren't running, but the constant chopping and changing and negative messages put them off. That's caused a loss of revenue and also a loss to the economy as those people didn't go out to the pub afterwards for example.
This is a key element - I think it is the Hungarian railway timetable where the "guaranteed skeleton service" is indicated in the PDF timetable. I've never been quite sure whether the symbol is a snowflake or a blazing sun, but the message is the same - this is the basic service which will be the "last man standing".
It's a very good idea. I know NJ Transit publishes "Severe Weather" timetables as well. People are much more likely to forgive the railway when there are delays and cancellations as a result of the weather if they know what they are in advance and can plan around them.
S101
Member
Thats odd. The BBC had me believe that it's only our railways that don't cope.....
Pakenhamtrains posts I agree with.
Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane have intense passenger and freight services comparable with much of UK. In very hot weather rail buckles do occur.
The question my train driver friends ask is "why do they not have these problems on the heavy iron ore lines in NW Western Australia?"
The Plilbara is in the hot dry tropics where daytime temperatures are usually above 30 degrees most days of the year. I have never heard of buckled rails up there.
The answer seems to be related to track construction. Closer sleeper spacing, deep ballast, and heavy rail (heavier than the more standard 60kg (20lbs).
This higher standard construction is expensive. When you are running 35,000/40,000 tonnes trains this is justified. I suggest that it is equally justified when running 200kmph express passenger trains.
Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane have intense passenger and freight services comparable with much of UK. In very hot weather rail buckles do occur.
The question my train driver friends ask is "why do they not have these problems on the heavy iron ore lines in NW Western Australia?"
The Plilbara is in the hot dry tropics where daytime temperatures are usually above 30 degrees most days of the year. I have never heard of buckled rails up there.
The answer seems to be related to track construction. Closer sleeper spacing, deep ballast, and heavy rail (heavier than the more standard 60kg (20lbs).
This higher standard construction is expensive. When you are running 35,000/40,000 tonnes trains this is justified. I suggest that it is equally justified when running 200kmph express passenger trains.
Amalie
Member
There are plenty of countries with similar weather and traffic as the UK, which therefore also have both a rail system, rail maintenance, and rolling stock built to relatively similar specifications. It should be of no surprise when the UK, The Netherlands, Ireland, Belgium, and Denmark all face similar challenges when it comes to operating trains in this weather.
Meanwhile Italy, with its white painted rails might have a smaller chance for the rail to buckle, and (the modern) trains built for countries such as Saudi Arabia were made to operate in extreme heat with very strong ACs.
Sure you might argue that a country such as Saudi Arabia might operate significantly less train services than the UK. Even so, their existing service was designed to be feasibly operative in very hot weather, and the same would occur for any expansion.
Meanwhile Italy, with its white painted rails might have a smaller chance for the rail to buckle, and (the modern) trains built for countries such as Saudi Arabia were made to operate in extreme heat with very strong ACs.
Sure you might argue that a country such as Saudi Arabia might operate significantly less train services than the UK. Even so, their existing service was designed to be feasibly operative in very hot weather, and the same would occur for any expansion.
And how would those Saudi operations function in temperatures below zero?