TfW class 398 Stadler Citylink tram trains

[800001]

The show is definitely not over yet, and all things 398 are certainly not as they seem, and that’s genuine. Plenty of failures and faults I’m hearing daily.

The new transport minister for Wales has supposedly instructed them to retrofit the units with toilets, there will be an additional order of units coming, and these may have them installed, to be coupled up on the short term with non toilet units in 6 car format. If they can be fitted only Stadler will know that answer.

Also for you all, the air conditioning has been confirmed as follows:

Class 398

There’s aircon in the driver’s cab and passenger saloon. Saloon HVAC follows EN14750 standard setpoint curves for Category B (urban vehicles). It aims to keep inside temperatures 3°C cooler than outside, up to a maximum limit. The drivers cab HVAC can be adjusted up or down by a small amount by the traincrew.

Where is the press release for the implementation of toilets?

Where or when is the tender for new units being placed?

How many units? What work would need going for additional units to be stabled on the network?

 

[Caaardiff]

It's only been about 6 weeks since the Election. Do we really think the new transport minister is fully clued up on Welsh Railways in that time to be in a place to "instruct" TFW to buy new trains, deeming the current project a failure?

Lets not forget TFW need to procure replacements for the ageing Mk4's and 153's, as well as review their fleet position for future expansion. There isn't an endless money pot for the Railway.
And also what would the lead in time for a new order of 398's be? By the time they get delivered, the toilet situation would have been bedded in and people got used to it, and any minor adjustments would have been made in the interim before any new units will appear.

It just doesn't add up.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It's only been about 6 weeks since the Election. Do we really think the new transport minister is fully clued up on Welsh Railways in that time to be in a place to "instruct" TFW to buy new trains, deeming the current project a failure?

Lets not forget TFW need to procure replacements for the ageing Mk4's and 153's, as well as review their fleet position for future expansion. There isn't an endless money pot for the Railway.
And also what would the lead in time for a new order of 398's be? By the time they get delivered, the toilet situation would have been bedded in and people got used to it, and any minor adjustments would have been made in the interim before any new units will appear.

It just doesn't add up.

Besides, more likely more loos at more stations to supplement the existing loos on stations. That is rather than undermining the purpose of the new loos already on stations by adding loos on trains.

 

[VR494]

Where is the press release for the implementation of toilets?

Where or when is the tender for new units being placed?

How many units? What work would need going for additional units to be stabled on the network?

The additional units are in the process of being ordered, and a total of 12 more 398’s will be produced.

They are likely to receive additional equipment to operate on the network on services to Penarth-Coryton-Caerphilly. Once funds are approved additional OLE will run to Cogan from Cardiff Central too.

Storage will be available in the newly refurbished sidings at Treherbert, along with a bigger depot with an uplift in staff.

Plaid Cymru have reportedly asked for provision to be made to retrofit 398’s with toilets. The cost of obtaining planning permission and work needed to stations for facilities is no longer cost effective compared to units with toilets.

The additional units may come with them pre-installed, and if coupled up with current ones would provide a toilet on the 6 car sets. Stadler city link are available with fully accessible toilets. They did not tick the option purely to save money and it had nothing to do with seat availability.

6 car running will not even be a thing until at least the middle of next year anyway, that’s if they can get them to work in multiple! The only routes to receive these units will the Pontypridd to Cardiff Bay for the time being.

From December there are plans to introduce 4 per hour on the Treherbert line with 398 pending training and further fault free unit availability. Current Pontypridd services will be extended to serve Treherbert.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jun 2026 ==

There was someone discussion on the train about getting a tech person with a laptop to lower the target temperature on the AC so it didn’t keep turning itself off…

They said that if that couldn’t be done they would pull it from service early because it was going to get too hot too quickly.

That’s one possible reason at least…

When I was on it the AC was on and was lovely…

Without installing a different HVAC system with additional power and cooling capacity it’s not going to change anything. Disaster of a launch event and more upset to come, the fleet is already showing signs of decline. It’s a non starter.

To put it simple, they ordered a very cheaply specified tram and are expecting the world out of it. It’s no train that’s for sure. Buy cheap and buy twice they used to say. These things may look the part but they are utter rubbish. Even a CAF is more reliable.

Meanwhile this week in a heatwave the mighty flirts are going pretty well. And keeping customers cool at the same time.

 

[Cambrian359]

Plaid Cymru have reportedly asked for provision to be made to retrofit 398’s with toilets. The cost of obtaining planning permission and work needed to stations for facilities is no longer cost effective compared to units with toilets.

Given the cost of doing anything these days,(add a few more zeros if it involves the railway) I find it quite astonishing that the assembly think it’s cheaper to retrofit and operate an extra 36 toilets on a fleet Of trains with all the depot facilities and staff that would be needed for that rather than just finish building a few toilet blocks at stations which will presumably be connected to the mains water, sewerage etc and require less ongoing expert maintenance than onboard facilities.

 

[Dr Day]

To put it simple, they ordered a very cheaply specified tram and are expecting the world out of it. It’s no train that’s for sure.

Why does it need to be a ‘train’? It just needs to be something that gets people from A to B in a reasonably attractive journey time, at reasonably attractive frequency and at a reasonably attractive fare. All relative to the car. And for a reasonable level of subsidy by the taxpayer.

Am still struggling to see the problem with trams as a concept, particularly where there are no freight trains? Trams should surely be far more cost effective at moving the types of volumes of passengers in the area, and the network extended much more cheaply as level crossings, complex signalling and footbridges aren’t needed.

 

[chargesmith]

Looks like 024 is back out today so whatever caused the service cancellation yesterday wasn't a serious issue with the unit.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jun 2026 ==

It will be interesting to see if one makes it out on the weekend - the 756s didn't appear on the weekend for some time so am expecting the same with these.

 

[AdamWW]

Looks like 024 is back out today so whatever caused the service cancellation yesterday wasn't a serious issue with the unit.

And that's consistent with the suggestion earlier that it was because the air conditioning wasn't coping.

 

[chargesmith]

And that's consistent with the suggestion earlier that it was because the air conditioning wasn't coping.

Did the 150s on the service also get cancelled, given they don't have any AC?

 

[AdamWW]

Did the 150s on the service also get cancelled, given they don't have any AC?

I don't think so. But they have a lot of opening windows instead.

Another thought has just occurred - the batteries seem to be coping with the heat even if the air conditioning isn't doing so well.
Particularly if they aren't using overhead power on the Bay branch.

 

[BillStampy]

There are no planned units out this weekend but so far as the units have been performing well (yesterday's issue caused by an apparent air-con failure in the driver cab so easily fixed) they are planned out in the same way next week with a unit off Taffs Well Depot in the morning and running Pontypridd to Bay until noon before heading back to depot.

 

[AdamWW]

There are no planned units out this weekend but so far as the units have been performing well (yesterday's issue caused by an apparent air-con failure in the driver cab so easily fixed) they are planned out in the same way next week with a unit off Taffs Well Depot in the morning and running Pontypridd to Bay until noon before heading back to depot.

And the path from the depot seems to already be in RTT
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:V18347/2026-06-29/detailed

 

[Bletchleyite]

Normal method will be DDO or driver door operation with a bell code 1-2 and repeat before closing. Guards will not be giving drivers 2 or ready to start, unless in degraded mode and RA will be used when cleared for Cardiff Central later this year.

Interesting, I didn't expect to see the "Merseyrail bodge" crop up in another place. It's not quite the same because it's using the buzzer instead of a proximity card, but it is basically the same idea in the sense that the guard in effect "gives the first tip" but doesn't do much after that bar look out of the window and presumably give 1 if they see something dangerous (on Merseyrail it'd be the passcom I think).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jun 2026 ==

There’s aircon in the driver’s cab and passenger saloon. Saloon HVAC follows EN14750 standard setpoint curves for Category B (urban vehicles). It aims to keep inside temperatures 3°C cooler than outside, up to a maximum limit. The drivers cab HVAC can be adjusted up or down by a small amount by the traincrew.

3 degrees below? Completely unfit for purpose. Sounds a bit like a 158!

 

[BillStampy]

And the path from the depot seems to already be in RTT
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:V18347/2026-06-29/detailed

Yes, same as this week from Monday to Friday.
What I have noticed is a WTT schedule is still up for Saturday next week which has a double unit go to Cardiff and split to form 2 seperate Cardiff Bay diagrams for the whole day. Now, as to whether that'll happen or not is up for debate but we'll have to just wait and see.

 

[chargesmith]

In regards to door operations, given the 398s are currently limited to the same timetable as the 150s there's no significant benefit to speeding up door open and close procedures, especially while staff are still getting used to new units, so whatever they are doing on these services may be a temporary arrangement and a faster process may come later.

Timekeeping seems to be OK so far.

3 degrees below? Completely unfit for purpose. Sounds a bit like a 158!

The biggest problem in heatwaves in the UK is the humidity so if the AC is only capable of 3 degrees below (still unconfirmed and our source for this is not exactly reliable) then as long as it is capable of dehumidifying the cabin then it will still be significantly more comfortable inside than out on hot days like we had this week.

 

[43096]

Another classic PR stunt there again. They need to stop promising dates, it's not going to happen. Late summer, but more like 2027-28.

That didn’t age well, did it? Were in the first third of summer.

 

[crZiller]

I realise my perspective here is skewed by living in the Bay... to me the 398 is a huge upgrade and the concept of a metro / tram line that extends into the valleys just feels natural (and reminds me of when I lived in Gent and Antwerp).

If you're living at the other end of the line and have been used to a commuter train, recently upgraded to FLIRTS with their associated services it will be a bit of an adjustment... but surely part of the goal is to make these areas genuinely part of the Cardiff metropolitan area while hopefully also not diminishing their own individual identities.

Ok, so that's a tall order for a piece of rolling stock... but I get a bit idealistic about transport infrastructure.

This feels to me like being able to take the number 4 tram in Gent from from my flat up to Evergem... and then maybe one day it will extend through to even to Newport on the other side...

I do have one massive complaint though. I'd like to be able to see through the front AND to just have a big window at the back with seats facing it :P

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jun 2026 ==

Sorry if that was all a bit general... I was just wanted to fight back a bit against some of the negativity / natural hostility to change and an obsession with toilet arrangements...

 

[chargesmith]

Great article on the 398 launch (account required to read)

South Wales poised for tram-train lift off

New stations and rolling stock are a rags to riches story for the Cardiff region. HOWARD JOHNSTON reports on the £1.3 billion Metro transformation

www.railmagazine.com

Some highlights:

- The total cost of the Metro project is now projected to be nearly twice the original estimate at around £1.3bn
- 5,000 miles of trouble-free running has been achieved with the first cohort of units
- TFW have worked closely with Merseyrail to help avoid some of the issues they had with their Stadler stock

 

[mrmartin]

How can they say the project is completed when Crwys road station still hasn't even had a contractor assigned (afiak)?

 

[800001]

Great article on the 398 launch (account required to read)

South Wales poised for tram-train lift off

New stations and rolling stock are a rags to riches story for the Cardiff region. HOWARD JOHNSTON reports on the £1.3 billion Metro transformation

www.railmagazine.com

Some highlights:

- The total cost of the Metro project is now projected to be nearly twice the original estimate at around £1.3bn
- 5,000 miles of trouble-free running has been achieved with the first cohort of units
- TFW have worked closely with Merseyrail to help avoid some of the issues they had with their Stadler stock

5000 trouble free miles? You wouldn't think so from reading this forum.

 

[chrisjo]

5000 trouble free miles? You wouldn't think so from reading this forum.

We are indeed in a very privileged position, to have a member who receives and passes on all reports of any malfunction as and when it happens, and furthermore has a direct line to as yet un-announced rail transport decisions by the new Plaid administration. Happy days.

 

[Coleridge]

5000 trouble free miles? You wouldn't think so from reading this forum.

What does "5000 miles of trouble-free running" even mean, though? Is there a definition in the paywalled article?

 

[800001]

What does "5000 miles of trouble-free running" even mean, though? Is there a definition in the paywalled article?

Is it just another way of saying 'fault free running'?

 

[chrisjo]

paywalled article?

The article is not paywalled, you just need to register for a free account.

 

[Coleridge]

Is it just another way of saying 'fault free running'?

Well, yes, but definition is important.

How many vehicles are involved? At the extremes, this could mean one train that has gone 5,000 miles without a fault or 100 trains that have each managed just 50 miles fault-free.

Is it 5,000 miles since a fault was reported on any unit, or is a cumulative 5,000 miles driven by each unit since the most recent fault was reported on that unit?

This might sound cynical and hair-splitting, but TfW is no stranger to spinning facts to make itself look good.

 

[Daniel Boone]

Well, yes, but definition is important.

At the extremes, this could mean one train that has gone 5,000 miles without a fault or 100 trains that have each managed just 50 miles fault-free.

"5,000 miles of trouble-free running are achieved up with half a dozen sets"

I'll repeat, the article isn't paywalled you just have to make an account.

 

[chargesmith]

Is it 5,000 miles since a fault was reported on any unit, or is a cumulative 5,000 miles driven by each unit since the most recent fault was reported on that unit?

The full quote is:

"So where are the ‘398s’? They have been parked up behind high fences at the new high-security depot at Taffs Well for some time, while 5,000 miles of trouble-free running are achieved up with half a dozen sets, after which lower distances will be expected of later units when confidence improves."

If we take half a dozen to mean exactly six, then each unit will have done around 833 miles each.

For context its around a 34 mile round trip from the depot to Treherbert, Aberdare or Merthyr, so by my count you could achieve this with 25 test runs per unit, so 150 runs in total.

 

[Coleridge]

The full quote is:

"So where are the ‘398s’? They have been parked up behind high fences at the new high-security depot at Taffs Well for some time, while 5,000 miles of trouble-free running are achieved up with half a dozen sets, after which lower distances will be expected of later units when confidence improves."

If we take half a dozen to mean exactly six, then each unit will have done around 833 miles each.

For context its around a 34 mile round trip from the depot to Treherbert, Aberdare or Merthyr, so by my count you could achieve this with 25 test runs per unit, so 150 runs in total.

I read that as meaning something different - that the 398s are parked at Taffs Well until half a dozen units have achieved 5,000 miles of trouble-free running. Only a few posts ago (post 1994), it was reported that a 398 test run was ended prematurely.

Do we know how many test runs there have been in total, and how many miles they have covered? (I apologise that I don't follow this thread every day, and that the answer might be in the preceding 2,000 posts.)

 

[Chris125]

The full quote is:

"So where are the ‘398s’? They have been parked up behind high fences at the new high-security depot at Taffs Well for some time, while 5,000 miles of trouble-free running are achieved up with half a dozen sets, after which lower distances will be expected of later units when confidence improves."

If we take half a dozen to mean exactly six, then each unit will have done around 833 miles each.

For context its around a 34 mile round trip from the depot to Treherbert, Aberdare or Merthyr, so by my count you could achieve this with 25 test runs per unit, so 150 runs in total.

I've always understood that to be miles per unit, otherwise a fault with one unit would reset the counter for all of them. That would be bizarre and probably harder to achieve.

Haven't they been doing a lot of mileage accumulation at Old Dalby too?

 

[AdamWW]

I read that as meaning something different - that the 398s are parked at Taffs Well until half a dozen units have achieved 5,000 miles of trouble-free running. Only a few posts ago (post 1994), it was reported that a 398 test run was ended prematurely.

That wasn't a test or mileage accumulation run - it was a passenger service.