Disabled Railcard & Season Tickets

[dickdarlington]

Good day all

I have a quick question. My partner has epilepsy and as such is not permitted to drive. We know she is elligible for a disabled railcard but she doesn't have one at present.

She has applied for a job on Tyneside (we're in Darlo) and she would be looking to get a season ticket. The question I want to ask is are season tickets reduced with railcards? Because if not, I've done the maths and it is cheaper to just buy return tickets on the days she needs to travel.

Ta in advance.

 

[AlterEgo]

There are no discounts on season tickets for railcards.

 

[SickyNicky]

Good day all

I have a quick question. My partner has epilepsy and as such is not permitted to drive. We know she is elligible for a disabled railcard but she doesn't have one at present.

She has applied for a job on Tyneside (we're in Darlo) and she would be looking to get a season ticket. The question I want to ask is are season tickets reduced with railcards? Because if not, I've done the maths and it is cheaper to just buy return tickets on the days she needs to travel.

Ta in advance.

On many services it is cheaper to buy individual tickets using a disabled railcard than to buy a season, yes, but it depends on the route.

In my case, Hereford to Bromsgrove costs £44.80 for a week, but the day tickets cost £36 for 5 days (with a disabled person's railcard).

However, for Hereford to Birmingham the season is £45.80, but the day tickets would cost £51.25 (again, with the railcard)

And yes, it is annoying that I can buy anytime tickets with the discount, but not season tickets.

 

[bnm]

On many services it is cheaper to buy individual tickets using a disabled railcard than to buy a season, yes, but it depends on the route.

In my case, Hereford to Bromsgrove costs £44.80 for a week, but the day tickets cost £36 for 5 days (with a disabled person's railcard).

However, for Hereford to Birmingham the season is £45.80, but the day tickets would cost £51.25 (again, with the railcard)

And yes, it is annoying that I can buy anytime tickets with the discount, but not season tickets.

A weeks season offers unlimited travel for 7 days on the line of route. 5x SDRs don't.

 

[SickyNicky]

A weeks season offers unlimited travel for 7 days on the line of route. 5x SDRs don't.

True. It does depend on whether the OP wishes to make journeys outside the normal M-F peak patterns. I never did, but it's important to bear it in mind.

 

[Oracle]

Having been into this with my son, who, like myself, has a DRC, it does appear to be better sometimes to purchase individual tickets. Of course with a season you pay for days not travelled.

 

[dickdarlington]

Thanks all. More idiocy from the railway world. The DRC is there to help people who can not travel under their own steam. And yet the powers that be seem to try their best to put up barriers. This is in line with them stopping free bus passes being used before 9.30. I'm all for saving money, but lets not cut off the hand that feeds us. I know of two people (with severe disabilities) who have had to stopp working because they couldn't afford to travel on a morning, and are back on benefits which is arguably costing the government a lot more.

As for my other half. DRC it is. And that will do her.

Thanks again

 

[Greenback]

Thanks all. More idiocy from the railway world. The DRC is there to help people who can not travel under their own steam. And yet the powers that be seem to try their best to put up barriers. This is in line with them stopping free bus passes being used before 9.30. I'm all for saving money, but lets not cut off the hand that feeds us. I know of two people (with severe disabilities) who have had to stopp working because they couldn't afford to travel on a morning, and are back on benefits which is arguably costing the government a lot more.

As for my other half. DRC it is. And that will do her.

Thanks again

There are non disabled people that can't afford to travel to jobs because of the cost of transport as well. That includes the cost of running a car where public transport is not available at all.

I think the general idea behind railcards when they were first introduced was that they were there to make leisure travel more competitive. It is a rather quaint idea, and times have certainly chanegd a bit, but the thinking was that if someone had a job they shuld be earning enough money to purchase season tickets!

 

[AlterEgo]

The whole point of the Disabled Railcard is to encourage those who have physical disabilities to travel for leisure.

It isn't meant to be an aid to getting to and from work - if you're earning a wage you should be paying the full (well, season tickets are heavily discounted anyway) fare just like everyone else, disabled or not!

For clarity, I am a DSB holder.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, that's what iwas trying to get at.

 

[bb21]

If you don't mind telling us what the journey is then we'll be able to tell you which way is cheaper.

 

[SS4]

If you don't mind telling us what the journey is then we'll be able to tell you which way is cheaper.

Darlington - Newcastle? That's what the OP implies anyway.

@OP: Ultimately it depends whether or not she'll want to travel at the weekend or any other time for that matter, what I've found from my own experiences is that having a season ticket made me take more leisure trips for the heck of it.

 

[dickdarlington]

The journey is between Darlington and Newcastle. And is likely to be 4 times a week. My partners epilepsy is triggered by overt tiredness and as such it has been calculated (by docs and so on) that a part time position is most suitable. I've done the maths, and the singles with a disabled railcard is the cheapest.

I agree that if you're able to have a job, that you should be able to fund transport there from your wages. And I appreciate that there are many abled bodied persons who struggle with transport costs (I personally started cycling to work to cut down on petrol costs). However, statistics prove that disabled persons generally earn less than abled bodied persons due to the restrictions of the jobs they can do, or the time they can work around. Disability Living Allowance assists with matters to a degree, but this does not always bring it in line with the average earnings, in fact in many cases this often falls below. (I have a degree in Sociology (qualified me for nothing LOL) and studied this as a module back in the day).

As a side, I don't think that the season tickets are discounted enough. Within PTE's yes, and where there is only one TOC perhaps. But when there is more than one and you cross boundaries then the price only becomes competive if you're using it more than five times a week. The car is still the cheapest way to travel if you have a diesel engine. And this harks back to the old argument that if the government really want us to use more environmental methods of travel they have to make them more attractive than the existing methods.

 

[AlterEgo]

And this harks back to the old argument that if the government really want us to use more environmental methods of travel they have to make them more attractive than the existing methods.

So the railways should be run at a loss, and heavily subsidised by the taxpayer? (This already happens with a large number of TOCs owing to cap-and-collar revenue protocols).

Tickets aren't going to fall in price.

 

[142094]

As has already been said, railcards are there to encourage leisure travel - which is why there is the time restriction/minimum fare before a certain time.

I'm sure everyone on the forum can understand the situation that some disabled people are in when trying to get a job, but getting a discount on a season ticket is just a step too far IMO.

 

[AlterEgo]

There are buses between Darlington and Newcastle. Cheaper than the car.

 

[Bungle73]

As has already been said, railcards are there to encourage leisure travel - which is why there is the time restriction/minimum fare before a certain time.

Those restrictions don't apply to a DPR.

 

[142094]

Those restrictions don't apply to a DPR.

My mistake about the restrictions, although the first point does apply - it is intended for leisure travel.

I'm not too familar with the DLA, but I'm guessing this is also to help with things such as travel costs as well as day-today living expenses?

 

[Greenback]

I agree that if you're able to have a job, that you should be able to fund transport there from your wages. And I appreciate that there are many abled bodied persons who struggle with transport costs (I personally started cycling to work to cut down on petrol costs). However, statistics prove that disabled persons generally earn less than abled bodied persons due to the restrictions of the jobs they can do, or the time they can work around. Disability Living Allowance assists with matters to a degree, but this does not always bring it in line with the average earnings, in fact in many cases this often falls below. (I have a degree in Sociology (qualified me for nothing LOL) and studied this as a module back in the day).

Many able bodied people are also on far less than the average wage. Some people are also ruled out of some jobs because of medical reasons, although they don't qualify for a Disabled Railcard at all.

As a side, I don't think that the season tickets are discounted enough. Within PTE's yes, and where there is only one TOC perhaps. But when there is more than one and you cross boundaries then the price only becomes competive if you're using it more than five times a week. The car is still the cheapest way to travel if you have a diesel engine. And this harks back to the old argument that if the government really want us to use more environmental methods of travel they have to make them more attractive than the existing methods.

Recent threads have shown that there is a huge disparity in season ticket discounts. I can't explain why this is, but it's a fact that on some flows a weekly season is under the cost of two peak time day returns, on others it only works out cheaper for five.

It would be far better to fix the discrepancy in some way rather than allow a further discount across the board.

The government does not want people to switch to rail any more than they have been doing. The system is creaking at the seams in many places now. If they did want to encourage modal shift, they would not be increasing fares and moving more of the financial burden from taxpayers to passengers.

I'm sure everyone on the forum can understand the situation that some disabled people are in when trying to get a job, but getting a discount on a season ticket is just a step too far IMO.

In effect it would be a discount on a discount.

 

[Oracle]

I don't know if anyone has noticed that the DRC has dropped at least one criterian: those on long-term Incapacity Benefit no longer qualify as a result of its replacement. Those on long-term sickness benefits can thus no longer get a card and yet they may be the ones most likely to need to travel to get to work again.

 

[dickdarlington]

Any argument I had (though I can't quite remember how it ended up with me ranting) has been well and truly licked.

I never realised that the railcards were aimed at the leisure traveller. And I don't bemoan that, I think it is a valid use of less than full trains.

With regards to the bus between Newcastle and Darlington. It takes two hours and you have to change at Durham. So I can't see the bus being a viable option.

We've looked at it and we have an option. The railcard gives us the chance to use as and when (and saves during holidays etc). The season pass gives anytime unlimited travel but doesn't factor in journeys not made. We've decided on the railcard because it will (based on 4 day travelling) be cheaper (to the tune of £500.00) than the season pass (not taking into account the fare increases in january).

Thanks all for an interesting (if rather bruising to my viewpoint) debate. Bring on the next one.

 

[bnm]

I don't know if anyone has noticed that the DRC has dropped at least one criterian: those on long-term Incapacity Benefit no longer qualify as a result of its replacement. Those on long-term sickness benefits can thus no longer get a card and yet they may be the ones most likely to need to travel to get to work again.

Those on long-term Incapacity Benefit (IB) who already held a Disabled Persons Railcard when IB was a qualifying criteria can continue to renew whilst their IB claim is still running.

The IB criterian was removed in October 2008. IB was closed to most new claimants at this time. New eligible claims for sickness are awarded Employment & Support Allowance.

Those on long term sickness benefits (ESA and in the support group) can get a DSB Railcard if their illness affects their mobility such as to make them eligible for Disability Living Allowance.

 

[Oracle]

Those on long-term Incapacity Benefit (IB) who already held a Disabled Persons Railcard when IB was a qualifying criteria can continue to renew whilst their IB claim is still running.

Correct! I was told that it was decided to drop any entitlement for long-term ESA cliamants as the Government were changing the entitlement criteria under the new benefit. I am still entitled so can continue getting a card.

I cannot recall if Severe Disablement Allowance entitled claimants to a DRC. If they did then as you know SDA was closed to new claimants some time ago and is now treated in practice as though it was IB. Those who would have qualified have now to apply for ESA, and if they are disabled enough, to DLA [Disability Living Allowamce].

That all said there will be fun and ganes starting in April 2013 with the general shaeup of SDA, DLA, etc., and the replacement by Personal Support Allowance [PSA]. I am concerned that many disabled claimants will lose their entitlements to DRCs and Motability cars.

 

[yorkie]

I'm not certain that the claim that (all) Railcards are only intended for leisure travel is correct... perhaps it is for the Network Card (due to the 10am restriction!), and to some extent in the South East only, the Senior & Family Railcards could be argued to have this effect, due to the restriction until whenever the Off Peak is valid - but only in the 'Network area' does this apply. For 16-25 Railcards, yes there is a minimum fare, that prevents people benefiting from shorter distance journeys until 10am but that doesn't stop someone having business meetings in, say, London from most of the country travelling on peak trains with the discount.

I think that the most likely reasoning is, as Greenback says, it would "in effect it would be a discount on a discount" to allow Railcard discounts on Seasons.

 

[All Line Rover]

Recent threads have shown that there is a huge disparity in season ticket discounts. I can't explain why this is, but it's a fact that on some flows a weekly season is under the cost of two peak time day returns, on others it only works out cheaper for five.

It would be far better to fix the discrepancy in some way rather than allow a further discount across the board.

A good example is Whitchurch to Crewe. A weekly season costs £32.50. 5 return tickets cost £36.00. That's a completely pathetic discount of just 70p a day - and that's if you make 5 return journeys a week! :roll: Using most Railcards in this scenario (particularly if you travel after 10am) would certainly be worthwhile.

On the other hand, there is Crewe to Birmingham. A weekly season costs £82. 5 return tickets cost £204.50. (:roll That's a fantastic saving! Using a Railcard in this scenario would be pointless.

The season ticket system is in a mess. IMO it should be standardized at 3x the SOR/SDR. Doing so would just about make using a Railcard pointless if you make 5 return journeys a week (I'm sure TOC's would love that ) whilst at the same time the price decreases on certain flows should be balanced out by the price increases on other flows - keeping revenue the same. At the same time, this would make the season ticket system so much easier to understand (it would also help with refunds!).

 

[Greenback]

I'm not certain that the claim that (all) Railcards are only intended for leisure travel is correct... perhaps it is for the Network Card (due to the 10am restriction!), and to some extent in the South East only, the Senior & Family Railcards could be argued to have this effect, due to the restriction until whenever the Off Peak is valid - but only in the 'Network area' does this apply. For 16-25 Railcards, yes there is a minimum fare, that prevents people benefiting from shorter distance journeys until 10am but that doesn't stop someone having business meetings in, say, London from most of the country travelling on peak trains with the discount.

I think that the most likely reasoning is, as Greenback says, it would "in effect it would be a discount on a discount" to allow Railcard discounts on Seasons.

It's a bit simplistic to use the term leisure travel I suppose. It might be better to say non commuter travel, since season tickets have been available for a lot longer than seasons!

A good example is Whitchurch to Crewe. A weekly season costs £32.50. 5 return tickets cost £36.00. That's a completely pathetic discount of just 70p a day - and that's if you make 5 return journeys a week! :roll: Using most Railcards in this scenario (particularly if you travel after 10am) would certainly be worthwhile.

On the other hand, there is Crewe to Birmingham. A weekly season costs £82. 5 return tickets cost £204.50. (:roll That's a fantastic saving! Using a Railcard in this scenario would be pointless.

The season ticket system is in a mess. IMO it should be standardized at 3x the SOR/SDR. Doing so would just about make using a Railcard pointless if you make 5 return journeys a week (I'm sure TOC's would love that ) whilst at the same time the price decreases on certain flows should be balanced out by the price increases on other flows - keeping revenue the same. At the same time, this would make the season ticket system so much easier to understand (it would also help with refunds!).

I think that one of the reasons for the discrepancies is that any that existed at the time of privatisaion have been exacerbated by the fares formulae that were introduced. This kept many season ticket increases lower (IIRC one year in the late 90's the annual season fare between Reading and London actually fell).

I feel that the present situation with such anomalies is not good, but then that is the case with ticketing as a whole, and people will not like the fares that they pay to go up even if it is to balance things out!

 

[bnm]

This kept many season ticket increases lower (IIRC one year in the late 90's the annual season fare between Reading and London actually fell).

Regulated Season Tickets dropped in price by 0.4% for most TOCs in January 2010 because of a negative RPI rate the previous July.

 

[Greenback]

Regulated Season Tickets dropped in price by 0.4% for most TOCs in January 2010 because of a negative RPI rate the previous July.

Yes, but I'm thinking that there were decreases prior to that that were triggered by service levels rather than inflation. This meant that season prices would fall whilst other fares would rise. Or am I totally confused again?

 

[bnm]

For TOCs that have Charter compensation rather the Delay Repay I believe it is still the case that you get a Season ticket rebate if performance criteria are not met.

 

[Greenback]

No it wasn't a rebate! I;m racking my brains here, but I still can't remember what it was! Just ignore me, if I remember any more I'll be sure to post it!