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Location Cabinets in hot weather

Peter Mugridge

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I have just gone through Richmond and it looks to me like every single Location Cabinet has been left fully open for additional ventilation. I've seen several others left open this morning elsewhere.

Is that wise...?

With some of them, the doors are on the sunny side; would that not heat the components even more?

Does it not also increase the risk of animals damaging something important?

...and most of all, if a fast developing thunderstorm with intense rain was to form, would that not be really asking for trouble?
 
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800002

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On one hand, they'll overheat by mid morning.
On the other, there are other risks.

NR don't scratch their posterior (usually) without a dynamic risk assessment.
It's perfectly safe. It just has risks.

They've probably calculated that to be less than a overheat / burn out failure (with actual flames) and then needing the walk a substantial amount of railway to find the loc box which will have failed.

One is guaranteed. One is purely risk.
 

D1511

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On a not entirely unrelated theme, traffic signal control cabinets are overheating just now, with a particular type of traffic signal controller board being badly affected.
Local Highway Authorities are looking at retrofitting solar powered cooling fans inside their traffic signal control boxes. Painting them matt grey probably isn't the best idea either, so look out for shiny white ones and foil covered ones at a big road junction near you soon!
However, as the cabinets are in the public realm and not in secure property, like the railway, the very last thing we'd ever do is leave the cabinet doors open!
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Theres a lot of sensitive electronics in modern signalling compared to relay based systems and whilst im pretty sure military spec components are specified everything has an upper temperature limit where it either fails or starts misbehaving. Cabinets have also been fitted with louvre panels over the doors to limit heat absorption but not sure how successful they've been.
 

Trainman40083

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Heaters in cabinets for winter, sometimes coolers. Batteries fry cos they don't like hot or cold weather
 

800002

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On a not entirely unrelated theme, traffic signal control cabinets are overheating just now, with a particular type of traffic signal controller board being badly affected.
Local Highway Authorities are looking at retrofitting solar powered cooling fans inside their traffic signal control boxes. Painting them matt grey probably isn't the best idea either, so look out for shiny white ones and foil covered ones at a big road junction near you soon!
However, as the cabinets are in the public realm and not in secure property, like the railway, the very last thing we'd ever do is leave the cabinet doors open!
This makes me laugh.
Last year I now recall a fibre optics cab (BT I think) in a similar situation.
It was completely surrounded in and insulated by the locally growing bush / weedy type foliage.
Even on a mild day it's fans were overwhelmed till the council ripped back the overgrown bush and creepers.

It's now got a an upward turbo-esque air scoop affixed to the top of it in effort to illicit air circulation/ heat exchange.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Heaters in cabinets for winter, sometimes coolers. Batteries fry cos they don't like hot or cold weather
Is it the case of this more recent differential in weather extreme?
Used to be either too hot in summer or too cold in winter. Now it's getting like both.
 

Trainman40083

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This makes me laugh.
Last year I now recall a fibre optics cab (BT I think) in a similar situation.
It was completely surrounded in and insulated by the locally growing bush / weedy type foliage.
Even on a mild day it's fans were overwhelmed till the council ripped back the overgrown bush and creepers.

It's now got a an upward turbo-esque air scoop affixed to the top of it in effort to illicit air circulation/ heat exchange.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Is it the case of this more recent differential in weather extreme?
Used to be either too hot in summer or too cold in winter. Now it's getting like both.
It has been a while since I was involved... Where I live in the Midlands, I remember two weeks of winter, where the temperature never rose about freezing point for two weeks (2012, was it?) We seem to be getting milder winters, but hotter summers...then all of a sudden it changes. One minute we get lots of rain, then none. The clay embankments suffer. Drains get overwhelmed. The joys of a Victorian railway.
 

800002

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It has been a while since I was involved... Where I live in the Midlands, I remember two weeks of winter, where the temperature never rose about freezing point for two weeks (2012, was it?) We seem to be getting milder winters, but hotter summers...then all of a sudden it changes. One minute we get lots of rain, then none. The clay embankments suffer. Drains get overwhelmed. The joys of a Victorian railway.
The like / agreement button was designed for this sort of post.
 

NaZzAtAzEr

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There were reports in local logs that a relay room reached 70c and ac overwhelmed. Techs opened all doors to try get some airflow
 

Bald Rick

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I have just gone through Richmond and it looks to me like every single Location Cabinet has been left fully open for additional ventilation. I've seen several others left open this morning elsewhere.

Is that wise...?

With some of them, the doors are on the sunny side; would that not heat the components even more?

Does it not also increase the risk of animals damaging something important?

...and most of all, if a fast developing thunderstorm with intense rain was to form, would that not be really asking for trouble?

Yes, it’s wise, based on balance of risk.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Thank you everyone; having moved around a bit more until mid afternoon, I think it was just the ones in and around the Richmond area - everywhere else seemed to be locked closed as usual, so presumably some particular vulnerability in that area?
 

800002

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It has been known for heat to affect different areas as such.

Take the point work at Harrow on the hill and it's tenancy to fail on mild temperatures (due to the location of nearby buildings i believe adversely distributing heat via reflective incidence).
 

Dstock7080

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Thank you everyone; having moved around a bit more until mid afternoon, I think it was just the ones in and around the Richmond area - everywhere else seemed to be locked closed as usual, so presumably some particular vulnerability in that area?
Perhaps they were trying to dry the boxes out following the heavy storms that affected parts of London overnight?
 

Tim M

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In Thailand, Westinghouse installed location cases with double skinned doors, sides and roof to concentrate air flow and cooling, that was with relays.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Perhaps they were trying to dry the boxes out following the heavy storms that affected parts of London overnight?
That was Monday night, though, the storms? It being Wednesday ( yesterday ) when I saw them all open.

Certainly a possibility - how did the rain in Richmond compare to other areas? I haven't really paid much attention to anything other than the general reporting of the storms.
 

Trainman40083

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In Thailand, Westinghouse installed location cases with double skinned doors, sides and roof to concentrate air flow and cooling, that was with relays.
In the UK, they just wouldn't pay for that, claiming it was a waste of money.
 

NaZzAtAzEr

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Network rail has done trials, sticking reflective insulating materials to the outside of LOCs, I think in the Waterloo area. Unipart have also developed different LOC designs that help with heat mitigation but the cost increase is quite significant
 

edwin_m

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We also see locs made out of a shiny unpainted material, stainless steel I assume, with louvred doors as mentioned above. Some also have a second top above the main one, presumably so that can take the heat from the sun without conducting it through to the inside of the cabinet.
 

Trainman40083

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I remember all these different location case designs well. But if Network Rail won't pay... I guess they just pay the TOCS for equipment failures instead.
 

apinnard

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I have just gone through Richmond and it looks to me like every single Location Cabinet has been left fully open for additional ventilation. I've seen several others left open this morning elsewhere.

Is that wise...?

With some of them, the doors are on the sunny side; would that not heat the components even more?

Does it not also increase the risk of animals damaging something important?

...and most of all, if a fast developing thunderstorm with intense rain was to form, would that not be really asking for trouble?
I think there must be a known issue with the equipment in the Gunnersbury and Richmond areas literally packing up in the heat. I witnessed most of the LOCs open during the hot spell in 2024 over a period of time I was working in that area. That was at the time where signalling at Gunnersbury kept being the reason for service disruption on-and-off over a long period also.

Maybe @Dstock7080 could elaborate?
 

Peter Mugridge

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I think there must be a known issue with the equipment in the Gunnersbury and Richmond areas literally packing up in the heat. I witnessed most of the LOCs open during the hot spell in 2024 over a period of time I was working in that area. That was at the time where signalling at Gunnersbury kept being the reason for service disruption on-and-off over a long period also.

Maybe @Dstock7080 could elaborate?
Interesting - that does look like it must be something specific to that area.
 

Annetts key

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We also see locs made out of a shiny unpainted material, stainless steel I assume, with louvred doors as mentioned above. Some also have a second top above the main one, presumably so that can take the heat from the sun without conducting it through to the inside of the cabinet.
In the area where I worked, there are various designs / types of location cupboard.

Western Region originally used silver paint for signal posts, with matt black paint for the top where the arm or the signal head was. This was for visibility reasons. So the S&T location cupboards and dis-boxes were also painted silver with the top being painted matt black.

The location cupboard came in three sizes, I can't remember the official name for the small one, or the middle sized ones ("medium narrow" maybe), but the type used for most late 1960s and 1970s MAS signalling schemes was the "large" size.

The later versions of these, the medium and large sizes did include various vents to allow some air flow.

This was fine for location cupboards that only housed cables, transformers and relays. But it was found to be unsuitable for cupboards that contained ASTER track circuit transmitter or receiver modules (audio frequency track circuits and hence the modules use electronic circuitry). Hence instead the painting teams painted the whole thing silver.

Even then, on a hot sunny summer day, you could fry an egg on the top of a cupboard that had equipment in it... As an S&T technician, you quickly learnt not to lean on them with your bare arm!

At one stage, special heat reflective paint was tried.

Note that the original Western Region location cupboards are actually made of a wood frame, then horizontal wood planks forming a backboard. Then galvanised sheet steel was formed to form the outer shell.

The original doors (which lift off) also used galvanised sheet steel, but were very heavy, so a lighter metal was used instead (I don't know what).

BR did come up with a standard design, in two sizes: "half width" (single door each side) and "full width" (double doors each side). These were made of mild steel and painted grey.

The basic design has changed slightly over the years.
These are still made as far as I know, but there are now some other designs. They look similar but there are some differences. It may be because a different manufacturer makes them.

Similarly, the grey colour paint is a lighter shade on some compared to others.

Sometimes S&T equipment used stainless steel cases. The GWML ATP scheme used stainless steel cases that were never painted.

In places, you will see stainless steel cases that houses the 650V power distribution equipment for the signalling. These are now the responsibility of the sparks (railway electricians). But in other places, they use the same cases/cupboards as the S&T.

The new signalling controlled by TVSC that was installed in the former Swindon and Bristol PSB areas used the standard location cases, but many do have the "extra" roof.

Even so, at one place (near Bristol Parkway), we did experience heat related issues in a location case that did not have the extra roof on it. So my colleagues had to fit an extra roof to it.
 

Taunton

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Here's a typical USA location cabinet on BNSF in Phoenix, Arizona, where temperatures dwarf what we see in the UK today, and winter overnights can be sub-zero. Single line crossing a complex road junction. Painted silver as you see, which I recall has been long used.

 

Annetts key

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Oh, I forgot to say in my earlier post, a small heater has been standard in all the new location cupboards since at least the 1980s.
 

MarkyT

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Here's a typical USA location cabinet on BNSF in Phoenix, Arizona, where temperatures dwarf what we see in the UK today, and winter overnights can be sub-zero. Single line crossing a complex road junction. Painted silver as you see, which I recall has been long used.

These are often referred to as bungalows over there. We'd call them relocatable equipment buildings (REBs) and they are usually air conditioned (if it's working). There's a range of sizes that can be used for crossing controls like this US example or small interlockings, or groups of input and output functions for a more centralised processor-based design. They can be pre-wired and tested in a workshop environment, then craned into place from a rail wagon or truck.

US Railroads have generally stuck with the distributed interlocking paradigm established in the relay -based CTC era. Today's interlockings are processor-based but distributed at the trackside in these bungalows like their relay forebears, each covering similar junction complexes. The UK employed similar technology on the Cromer line in 2000, supplied by Vaughan Harmon. Successor US-based products are still marketed in the UK by Alstom and were used on the recent Feltham and Wokingham resignalling.
 
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Annetts key

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REBs in summer if not fitted with air conditioning or where the air conditioning has failed or is not able to cope become so hot that you can't even stay inside for more than a short amount of time let alone actually do any meaningful work in them.

And yes, electronic signalling equipment does fail if the air temperature in them gets too high. There have been failures of axle counter evaluator racks as a result... Network Rail learned the hard way that they needed to install an extra air conditioning unit in them...
 

testertrev

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@Annetts key Medium Wide, Medium Narrow & Large Lineside are the three WR loc types. We also tried heat reflective white paint on the locs containing the CCTV repeaters for Silk Mill to try and maintain picture quality although 26 odd miles of Type A Co-Ax, and rabbits chewing the outer sheath made it a challenge without heat!
 

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