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Reopenings - the positive narrative the railway industry needs !

yorksrob

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What work did Thameslink 2000 involve that was not routine? It only relaid track, rebuilt stations that already existed, opened a new but very short tunnel (Canal, north of St Pancras). Yet it was rightly trumpeted and is now relied on by such a huge number of people, approaching the population Devon and Cornwall. Positive narratives are counted in the people impacted, not in the projects.

Reopening the line between Blackfriars and Farringdon primarily. This led to a host of places that could be reached directly and indirectly within and beyond London.

I dare say that HS2 will carry lots of passengers, however it's struggled to provide a positive story to the public so far.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Multiple informed posters have debunked the myth of systematic underestimations.

If the calculation isn't accounting for the correct things in the first place, how can they tell ? We've yet to see the calculation that takes account of increased educational opportunities, social wellbeing etc.
 
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zwk500

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Reopening the line between Blackfriars and Farringdon primarily. This led to a host of places that could be reached directly and indirectly within and beyond London.
AIUI (and @Bald Rick can probably confirm or correct me on this) the Thameslink Upgrade programme was in response to the success of the reopening, rather than an always-intended follow on from it.
If the calculation isn't accounting for the correct things in the first place, how can they tell ? We've yet to see the calculation that takes account of increased educational opportunities, social wellbeing etc.
Read a business case. Educational Opportunities is directly cited as a metric for evaluation of the Okehampton/Dartmoor line.
 

yorksrob

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AIUI (and @Bald Rick can probably confirm or correct me on this) the Thameslink Upgrade programme was in response to the success of the reopening, rather than an always-intended follow on from it.

Apologies - I'd assumed that this was in relation to the original Thameslink project. True, tle latest upgrade will have created more direct journey opportunities.

Read a business case. Educational Opportunities is directly cited as a metric for evaluation of the Okehampton/Dartmoor line.

This may have been updated since the one I read for Uckfield - Lewes, in which case that's a good step forward.

Plenty of other potential reopenings are likely to show similar benefits as Okehampton.
 

HSTEd

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Surprising, there being a sodding great university at Falmer and all
I'm not sure many university students studying at universities in Brighton are likely to commute from Uckfield or points north of there on that line.

Most universities have students living close by outside of some unusual cases such as central London.
 

yorksrob

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I'm not sure many university students studying at universities in Brighton are likely to commute from Uckfield or points north of there on that line.

Most universities have students living close by outside of some unusual cases such as central London.

It's certainly more likely now, given students are more likely to commute from home due to living costs.
 

Bald Rick

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Surprising, there being a sodding great university at Falmer and all

With very few people from Uckfield / Crowborough etc attending there; and for those that do (which would be more likely staff than students) who don’t want to drive have a direct bus that takes 45 miuntes (from Uckfield).
 

zwk500

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Surprising, there being a sodding great university at Falmer and all
2 universities, although the University of Brighton has several other campuses.

But a significant point of going to those unis is to live in Brighton, not Crowborough.

Falmer is relevant to the lewes-uckfield case as direct trains between London and East Brighton would see strong demand, although that line is limited to 7 car platforms and will be very very pricey to extend any further.
 

yorksrob

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With very few people from Uckfield / Crowborough etc attending there; and for those that do (which would be more likely staff than students) who don’t want to drive have a direct bus that takes 45 miuntes (from Uckfield).

Without access to the attendance roll for that institution I find it hard to see how someone would know.

Even then, the presence of a regular bus service suggests potential demand for a train service which would be much quicker.

2 universities, although the University of Brighton has several other campuses.

But a significant point of going to those unis is to live in Brighton, not Crowborough.

Falmer is relevant to the lewes-uckfield case as direct trains between London and East Brighton would see strong demand, although that line is limited to 7 car platforms and will be very very pricey to extend any further.

As I mentioned, all universities are seeing larger numbers of students staying at home due to costs. You only have to look at the large numbers of students and young people using Coastway East to see that there is a demand to Brighton.
 

Bald Rick

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Without access to the attendance roll for that institution I find it hard to see how someone would know.

Well presumably the study team were advised by someone who knew.


Even then, the presence of a regular bus service suggests potential demand for a train service which would be much quicker.

I’m not sure it would be much quicker, allowing for the change at Lewes. And one bus an hour is hardly a deal maker for a rail project of this nature.
 

yorksrob

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Well presumably the study team were advised by someone who knew.




I’m not sure it would be much quicker, allowing for the change at Lewes. And one bus an hour is hardly a deal maker for a rail project of this nature.

Even with a reversal at Lewes a direct train would be much quicker. It wouldn't be ideal, but a headshunt to the east of the station would enable it.
 

Bald Rick

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Even with a reversal at Lewes a direct train would be much quicker. It wouldn't be ideal, but a headshunt to the east of the station would enable it.

It wouldn’t be quicker than an express bus, that would cost about 10% ofthe cost of just running a train, let alone building a new railway and a headshunt (presumably with a platform, and accessible to sll, etc? otherwise it’s passengers off, passengers on, stop twice…)
 

zwk500

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a headshunt (presumably with a platform, and accessible to sll, etc? otherwise it’s passengers off, passengers on, stop twice…)
The operating method at Lewes would almost certainly be to stop in the platform first (1 southbound, 3 northbound), then draw into a passenger-rated Headshunt and run non-stop through Lewes platform 4 (southbound) or 2 (northbound).

Reversals with passengers onboard are already done during diversions away from Hassocks.
Even with a reversal at Lewes a direct train would be much quicker. It wouldn't be ideal, but a headshunt to the east of the station would enable it.
For a quick comparison:
Uckfield - Lewes Journey time from the 2008 Business case was assumed to be 14 minutes. Add a minute for stopping at Lewes, add 3 minutes for moving in to the headshunt, add reversal allowance of 8 minutes (6 minutes minimum in TPRs, but no platform so slightly extended for this location), then 7 minutes runtime to Falmer (6 minutes from platform, extended for the fact the train has to clear the headshunt).

14+1+3+8+7 = 33 minutes. The *existing* no.29 bus is timed for 37-42 minutes journey time between Uckfield Bus station and Falmer rail Station. I don't know about you but I wouldn't call 4 minute much quicker. 9 minutes is appreciable, but that saving assumes a best case train against worst case bus.

FWIW, routing via Ringmer would likely result in a 12-15 minute journey time to Glynde, then 14 minutes from arriving at Glynde to arriving at Falmer.
 

Zomboid

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The operating method at Lewes would almost certainly be to stop in the platform first (1 southbound, 3 northbound), then draw into a passenger-rated Headshunt and run non-stop through Lewes platform 4 (southbound) or 2 (northbound).

Reversals with passengers onboard are already done during diversions away from Hassocks.

For a quick comparison:
Uckfield - Lewes Journey time from the 2008 Business case was assumed to be 14 minutes. Add a minute for stopping at Lewes, add 3 minutes for moving in to the headshunt, add reversal allowance of 8 minutes (6 minutes minimum in TPRs, but no platform so slightly extended for this location), then 7 minutes runtime to Falmer (6 minutes from platform, extended for the fact the train has to clear the headshunt).

14+1+3+8+7 = 33 minutes. The *existing* no.29 bus is timed for 37-42 minutes journey time between Uckfield Bus station and Falmer rail Station. I don't know about you but I wouldn't call 4 minute much quicker. 9 minutes is appreciable, but that saving assumes a best case train against worst case bus.

FWIW, routing via Ringmer would likely result in a 12-15 minute journey time to Glynde, then 14 minutes from arriving at Glynde to arriving at Falmer.
And thus illustrates why putting back what used to be there is the answer to the wrong question. It's not immediately obvious from Google maps that there's anywhere sensible to build this reversing siding anyway.

I suspect the going via Ringmer option is just as dead a duck as a straight reopening, but it would at least sensibly connect places together that people might want to travel between and adds the potential for a new place to be added to the railway network.
 

Llandudno

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For Level Crossings, the Grossly Disproportionate factor used is typically 2.5x, as set out in guidance from Government and ORR.

This means that ehen comparing options, if the additional whole life costs of a safer option are less than 2.5x the whole life beenfits benefits (including safety risk improvement) of that option then it should be pursued.

For new lines, the initial cost of a bridge is higher than a level crossing (but not by much in some cases), but the ongoing costs of a bridge are much lower. And of course the safety risk is much better. Hence it would be near impossible to find a case where building a new level crossing on a new line is a better result.

People can argue all they like, but I’ve being doing assessments like this on and off for 20 years and have never found an example where a new level crossing passes the assessment. Aand that’s good, because the assessment proves society is better off without it.
I wonder which was the last level crossing to be commissioned on the network?
 

zwk500

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And thus illustrates why putting back what used to be there is the answer to the wrong question. It's not immediately obvious from Google maps that there's anywhere sensible to build this reversing siding anyway.
The headshunt can only really go in one place. It's very possible, but would require land take and an extra turnout opposite the existing crossover east of the junction. There's about 475m between the toe of the crossover points and where the line straightens out towards the River Ouse bridge.
I suspect the going via Ringmer option is just as dead a duck as a straight reopening, but it would at least sensibly connect places together that people might want to travel between and adds the potential for a new place to be added to the railway network.
Going via Ringmer almost certainly won't result in a BCR above 1.5, no. It offers a much stronger strategic case but the economic case is likely pretty similar.
 

The exile

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With very few people from Uckfield / Crowborough etc attending there; and for those that do (which would be more likely staff than students) who don’t want to drive have a direct bus that takes 45 miuntes (from Uckfield).
Although in this case the status quo isn’t much of a guide to the future in that by the time any reopening happened it would affect a completely different cohort of students who’ve choice of study location count have been influenced by very different priorities to today’s cohort. What is predictable, however is the maximum possible uptake, and I doubt even that makes much of a difference to either the social or financial case for the reopening.
 

Bald Rick

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The operating method at Lewes would almost certainly be to stop in the platform first (1 southbound, 3 northbound), then draw into a passenger-rated Headshunt and run non-stop through Lewes platform 4 (southbound) or 2 (northbound).

I disagree, it would be to stop twice, to reduce journey times for Lewes passengers. It’s all low speed there so the time loss is perhaps only 1.5 mins. This is for a normal planned service 363 days a year, the diversions are principally about getting London - Brighton quickly.
 

zwk500

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I disagree, it would be to stop twice, to reduce journey times for Lewes passengers.
Maybe, it's all academic only. If so it'd likely D/U activity codes on the respective stops so that dwells are kept as short as possible (and to help keep passengers from getting too confused)

I don't think too many Lewes passengers would be on the trains, as anybody for London would be on the train via Haywards Heath, while the position of the station for the town will mean most people will still make shorter journeys by Car (especially if the service stays hourly). It'd be interesting to see the value of time trade-offs for putting 2 mins in a Falmer-London journey rather than 10 into a Lewes-Uckfield journey.

(Of course, if we went via Ringmer than Brighton would be just a simple stop, and Eastbourne/Seaford would be a reversal in the Platform... :) )
 

cle

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I don't think too many Lewes passengers would be on the trains, as anybody for London would be on the train via Haywards Heath, while the position of the station for the town will mean most people will still make shorter journeys by Car (especially if the service stays hourly). It'd be interesting to see the value of time trade-offs for putting 2 mins in a Falmer-London journey rather than 10 into a Lewes-Uckfield journey.
I think it is just about spreading demand a little. I would expect a second TPH to use it, presumably to the Eastbourne direction - but would have to be diverted from somewhere. Maybe the extra East Grinstead paths / peak services which run to LB. In any case, not everything is currently running through East Croydon.

There aren't really many other obvious options - splitting perhaps at Oxted? Or shuttling into the (extended) bay there and connecting into EG services? Fairly pointless but might be a few users for local journeys in the gaps (local employment or schools?) - to add frequency.
 

Magrar

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There's no doubt that the railway industry has its issues.

HS2 is in the news for all the wrong reasons. Fares remain high. The hangover from the Great Western electrification affects investment to this day

It seems to me that the railway needs a good positive narrative that can be told to the public and policy makers alike.

Casting my eyes around - what has the railway done in the last few years that can rightly be portrayed as unquestionably positive, to drive the agenda that the railway is great for people and the nation alike ?

Reflecting on the tenth anniversary of the Borders line reopening provides the answer - re-openings.

Borders, Blythe, Okehampton, Ebbw Vale... These reopenings have all been hugely successful, supporting people and communities across the Nation.

Yet when it comes to this tremendous success story, which the industry should be shouting from the rooftops, the industry hides its light under a bushall.

We have a good collection of case studies now across the Kingdom. Every time there is a negative story, a difficult interview, an unhappy select committee, the great and good of the industry should be highlighting these successes to illustrate both how useful the railway is and what the industry can achieve.

Re-openings are the railway industries success story and the way forward.

Shout it out proud.
I like the enthusiasm, but is "Blythe" [sic] really worth shouting about?

The sheer disruption of the build, level crossings in urban areas, massively delayed and presumably well over budget, and all merely for a basic branch line with bus shelters for "stations", served by what look like life expired boxes on wheels and sound like imminent climate death, crawling and squeaking around a tight turn, and then running like mad just to slot in with superfast London expresses, with complex ticketing, not exactly frequent or fast times, and which all falls apart anyway if a bunny rabbit sneezes within 50 yards of the line, and where a fair bit of the cash was used for car parks, road buidling, and ever more of the public realm, areas far removed from any danger, but still carved up into DO NOT ENTER zones ringed by military grade fencing, to guard the sticks out like a sore thumb "landscaping", but painted a nice green, as if that makes it all invisible.

The whole vibe is umambitious, uninventive, accept what you’re given and be grateful for it, peasants.
 

yorkie

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I like the enthusiasm, but is "Blythe" [sic] really worth shouting about?

The sheer disruption of the build, level crossings in urban areas, massively delayed and presumably well over budget, and all merely for a basic branch line with bus shelters for "stations", served by what look like life expired boxes on wheels and sound like imminent climate death, crawling and squeaking around a tight turn, and then running like mad just to slot in with superfast London expresses, with complex ticketing, not exactly frequent or fast times, and which all falls apart anyway if a bunny rabbit sneezes within 50 yards of the line, and where a fair bit of the cash was used for car parks, road buidling, and ever more of the public realm, areas far removed from any danger, but still carved up into DO NOT ENTER zones ringed by military grade fencing, to guard the sticks out like a sore thumb "landscaping", but painted a nice green, as if that makes it all invisible.

The whole vibe is umambitious, uninventive, accept what you’re given and be grateful for it, peasants.
Is this real or parody?

That's a huge paragraph, too; I don't understand the relevance of bunny rabbits and military zones, so I can only assume this is isn't to be taken seriously.

The line is absolutely a success.

Councillor Glen Sanderson, leader of Northumberland County Council, said: "The success of the Northumberland Line has been quite remarkable and it’s fair to say has exceeded all our expectations...

Feel free to create a new thread if you think it could/should have been done differently
 
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Magrar

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It was a serious point made in a light hearted manner.

But it seems pretty clear you're not interested, so good luck shouting about their stunning success.
 

yorksrob

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I like the enthusiasm, but is "Blythe" [sic] really worth shouting about?

The sheer disruption of the build, level crossings in urban areas, massively delayed and presumably well over budget, and all merely for a basic branch line with bus shelters for "stations", served by what look like life expired boxes on wheels and sound like imminent climate death, crawling and squeaking around a tight turn, and then running like mad just to slot in with superfast London expresses, with complex ticketing, not exactly frequent or fast times, and which all falls apart anyway if a bunny rabbit sneezes within 50 yards of the line, and where a fair bit of the cash was used for car parks, road buidling, and ever more of the public realm, areas far removed from any danger, but still carved up into DO NOT ENTER zones ringed by military grade fencing, to guard the sticks out like a sore thumb "landscaping", but painted a nice green, as if that makes it all invisible.

The whole vibe is umambitious, uninventive, accept what you’re given and be grateful for it, peasants.

I think it definitely is.

As @yorkie points out, the numbers of passengers who've used it since opening speak for themselves.

Admittedly, some stations have taken longer than expected, but not to a great extent.

I also take the point about old rolling stock and bland stations, however it is a lot easier to make the case to upgrade trains and stations for a railway that's already well used than one that's not open yet.

Any useful railway, being a part of a network will need to slot in alongside other services somewhere, however the Blythe line is separated for most of its route outside Newcastle.

Basically, although the line isn't aesthetically beautiful, it's proven itself to be a real bonus for the area.
 

The exile

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I like the enthusiasm, but is "Blythe" [sic] really worth shouting about?

The sheer disruption of the build, level crossings in urban areas, massively delayed and presumably well over budget, and all merely for a basic branch line with bus shelters for "stations", served by what look like life expired boxes on wheels and sound like imminent climate death, crawling and squeaking around a tight turn, and then running like mad just to slot in with superfast London expresses, with complex ticketing, not exactly frequent or fast times, and which all falls apart anyway if a bunny rabbit sneezes within 50 yards of the line, and where a fair bit of the cash was used for car parks, road buidling, and ever more of the public realm, areas far removed from any danger, but still carved up into DO NOT ENTER zones ringed by military grade fencing, to guard the sticks out like a sore thumb "landscaping", but painted a nice green, as if that makes it all invisible.

The whole vibe is umambitious, uninventive, accept what you’re given and be grateful for it, peasants.
And your alternative suggestion would be…?
 

The Ham

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The sheer disruption of the build,

Railways are disruptive to build, as are roads. However, unlike roads, it's likely that it will generally benefit traffic flows going forwards as more travel can be undertaken without needing a car

Level crossings in urban areas,

The level crossings existed, they were upgraded, closed our replaced by bridges. Obviously, replacement by bridge would be a better option, but given a pedestrian bridge can easily cost over £2 million, that's a lot of cost to undertake.

massively delayed

It depends two of the 5 stations opened within 6 months of when they were expected, whilst 1 station was about 1 year lateandthe final 2 weren't quite 2 years late.

and presumably well over budget,

There were significant additional costs, however some of that was stuff which wasn't predictable.

Things like:
- global factors increasing material costs due to shortages
- unknown mine workings which needed to be capped off
- delays to the project due to storms, unexploded bombs, and having to do the work to cap off the mines.

and all merely for a basic branch line with bus shelters for "stations",

And? Whilst it's technically a secondary line, why should it not share a lot of characteristics with a branch line?

served by what look like life expired boxes on wheels and sound like imminent climate death, crawling and squeaking around a tight turn,

Unfortunately, that's often the experience with UK rolling stock on non electrified lines (and even then it's not always much better).

However, even then by using rail chances are the emissions are no worse than by car, especially given someone usingtrainsfire their longer distance travel are more likely to walk cycle and use other public transport.

and then running like mad just to slot in with superfast London expresses, with complex ticketing, not exactly frequent or fast times, and which all falls apart anyway if a bunny rabbit sneezes within 50 yards of the line,

Again, nothing particularly surprising about these points when compared to other lines and services in the UK.

However, non of that can detract from the fact that the highest predicted passengers numbers were smashed in the first year of operation, even though not all the stations were open.

The highest prediction was 600,000, and it actually saw 920,000, so more than 50% higher than the upper predicted level.
 

martin butler

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I think the focus should be on the improved community access that re opening disused lines brings,

All of the lines mentioned, once re opened have had larger than projected usage, there are some that if looked at on a pure costs' basis, don't look viable,

I have always hoped that some parts of the former SR routes in Devon, such as Bidiford to Barnstable, and Bere Alston to Oakhampton re join the network, have you tried driving anywhere in the West Country during the Summer months? and extending Barnstable services to Bideford, or even beyond, might be a way to improve transport connections,

Same as if services were re introduced to Tavistock allowing jouneys into north Devons tourist areas, from both Exeter, and Plymouth as well as additional services if Waterloo to Exeter, was extended to run to Plymouth via Oakhampton
 

yorksrob

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I think the focus should be on the improved community access that re opening disused lines brings,

All of the lines mentioned, once re opened have had larger than projected usage, there are some that if looked at on a pure costs' basis, don't look viable,

I have always hoped that some parts of the former SR routes in Devon, such as Bidiford to Barnstable, and Bere Alston to Oakhampton re join the network, have you tried driving anywhere in the West Country during the Summer months? and extending Barnstable services to Bideford, or even beyond, might be a way to improve transport connections,

Same as if services were re introduced to Tavistock allowing jouneys into north Devons tourist areas, from both Exeter, and Plymouth as well as additional services if Waterloo to Exeter, was extended to run to Plymouth via Oakhampton

I think Bodmin Parkway to Padstow would be a great benefit to that part of Cornwall.
 

Magrar

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However, non of that can detract from the fact that the highest predicted passengers numbers were smashed in the first year of operation, even though not all the stations were open.

The highest prediction was 600,000, and it actually saw 920,000, so more than 50% higher than the upper predicted level.

This is indicative of why the line is nothing worth shouting about. It is clear the estimates of expected demand were way off, so it is clear that whoever is building railways in the UK does not actually understand the travel needs of places like that region, and probably just used assumptions from elsewhere, or massively outdated models full stop.

That they do not truly understand the north-south divide, the need to level up this country, and thus the true, highest potential of a line like this in the modern age. What it could be doing in just 5 years, had the potential been factored in from the start. And which is now locked out due to choices made in the design. Literally locked out in some cases, with all that ugly fencing and the 20th Century views of shared space.

What if the line had been designed and built as a true intensively worked but net zero system? What if the option of tram trains or seamless integration with the Metro, rather than interchange, had been used? What if the stock had space for more than two bikes, or actually allowed ebikes/scooters?

What if the stations were genuinely inviting pieces of functional architecture and multi use community spaces? What if you could get a warm meal there, perhaps a vegan sausage roll, rather than having to leave the station? These things all being factors in why people might choose the train over a car.

What if you could use this line in a storm or artic blast, without requiring a trip to North Face beforehand? Bearing in mind the Newcastle terminus is under cover and has many onward connections entirely protected from the elements. Since a train, being a train, is comfortably ridden in normal clothes, even in harsh weather. Or it can be. Whether this stock is up to the task, is debatable.

And the other stations were all designed to allow a passenger to be dropped off at the door. Sadly by cars or taxis, but in time, if they rip out some of kerbs, replace some of the signage, redraw some of the line painting, that could at least be some form of community owned last mile public transport.

Or just a bus, a proper bus, which currently seem to be excluded from the footprints that I've seen, stopping at the customary arms length distance that has become normalised.

What might the ceiling have been then?

The vision, the ambitiom, the commitment was not there. That's why they ended up with something that looks, feels and sounds like it was built on the cheap, providing the bare minimum, what's already been done elsewhere (and found wanting). Merely yet another bit of railway that looks and feels as outdated as the rest of it.

The difference between the level of innovation for something like the lizzy line, with its self driving three signal type stock, is clear. Yes this could all be rectified in time. But we all know it won't be.

So there will be a level crossing in the middle of Ashington for the next 50, possibly a 100 years. Ironically it will cease to be a drag on the local economy only when the local economy ceases to be car dependant. Something the planners of this line have not really ensured is any more achieveable than it was before.

Those car parks lock in car dependency, and make car ownership something to aspire to. So one day there's always the option of those car owners choosing to skip the train portion of their journey, should it be more convenient. Perhaps because a major road improvement in the region, cuts the journey time. The local Mayor, a Labour Mayor, wants those improvements.

These are all oddly disconnected/muddled design choices, since literally every journey this line offers, was already possible using a bus. Buses that are going electric in the very same year this line eventually opened. Because that's how fast the modern world is changing. So it would have been worth shouting about if the railway was already able to be that dynamic and forward facing.

This is all why it feels like someone massively over-estimated how many of the passengers using this line, would also be using a car. At the moment anyway. That's why the line, counterintuively, with it's belching diesel stock, might not be the choice of travel for a true, hardcore environmentally conscious traveller, who has a dim view (for good reason) of even personal electric car transport. Perhaps negative sterotypes that such people do not even exist in that region, were at work?

The least said about someone not anticipating there would be unexploded bombs or unknown mine workings in this area, so that these compounded truly unpredictable costs (although how unforseeble such things were in the post-Covid Trump world, is debatable), the better.

Put simply, in local political terms, to a left behind Reform voter, or a jumped ship to the Greens voter, does this line feel like the step change this country, this specific region, wants, demands, or was it just more of the same? Even to a Labour voter, was this a wow moment?

Was it perhaps priced in that whatever else was happening in the country, Newcastle and surrounds, are forever safe Labour territory? Due ironically to changing demographics and more eco-friendly attitudes. So doing something, but the bare minimum, would suffice to quell the sort of anti-Labour rebellions now being seen in Sunderland and whatever the local equivalent of Brighton is.

Which is not to say don't do it. But the premise of the thread is, should we then shout about it once it's done?
 

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