Experiences of service recovery (or lack of) on GTR Great Northern

[Hadders]

A family member of mine made a return journey from Kings Lynn to Kings Cross on Saturday. The plan was to travel on the 08:45 from KLN and meet me at Kings Cross and go to an event with me in London before travelling back to KLN later in the evening. Some residual disruption was expected due to Friday's track defect between Hitchin and Cambridge. Here's what happened.

The 06:45 and 07:45 departures were both cancelled. The 08:45 was a four car class 379 and left a few minutes late. The train was due to couple up to another four car unit at Cambridge. It was standing room only upon leaving Kings Lynn and fully wedged by Ely.

No additional unit appeared at Cambridge and the service continued as four cars all the way to Kings Cross, where it arrived on time. I observed the train arriving at KGX and it was one of the fullest four car trains I've ever seen. A very uncomfortable journey.

We arrived back at KGX in good time to carch the 19:48. The signs were not looking good when we discovered the 19:17 had been cancelled and the 19:48 was planned as four cars. I worked out which platform the 19:48 was planned to leave from and we made our way to it before the incoming train arrived. When the train eventually arrived, and the platform announced there was a rush of passengers. Many failed to get on it was so full.

At about 20:05 there was an annoucement onboard that the train had been cancelled and that 'passengers should return to the foyer to await the next departure'. I guessed that the next train at 20:48 , if it ran, would be uncomfortably busy but I hatched a plan to use the 20:31 Thameslink train to CBG which gave a 6 minute connection into the Kings Lynn train (i.e. the 20:48 ex-KGX). My thinking was that some passengers would get off at CBG and even if it was still wedged, the family member would spend less time on a wedged train.

The 12-car Thameslink train was empty north of Stevenage, so we had a pleasant journey. At Cambridge we positioned ourselves for a speedy interchange only to find that the train to KLN would be terminating at CBG and would not be continuing to KLN. Eventually the family member was put in a taxi from CBG to KLN. Staff at CBG were doing a good job in difficult circumstances.

 

[saismee]

The 12-car Thameslink train was empty north of Stevenage, so we had a pleasant journey. At Cambridge we positioned ourselves for a speedy interchange only to find that the train to KLN would be terminating at CBG and would not be continuing to KLN. Eventually the family member was put in a taxi from CBG to KLN. Staff at CBG were doing a good job in difficult circumstances.

I think this is the one benefit of Cambridge/Ely being run by Greater Anglia. It seems GA staff just make more sensible decisions than any of the ones that come out of TSGN's control, though I suppose taxis would've been authorised by Great Northern still. Terminating trains short at CBG/ELY and not running anything to Lynn seems like a backwards move when there's no alternatives in that direction. Surely running a shuttle and pushing people onto Liverpool Street and slower Thameslink services at Cambridge is a better idea for crowding?

 

[bramling]

I think this is the one benefit of Cambridge/Ely being run by Greater Anglia. It seems GA staff just make more sensible decisions than any of the ones that come out of TSGN's control, though I suppose taxis would've been authorised by Great Northern still. Terminating trains short at CBG/ELY and not running anything to Lynn seems like a backwards move when there's no alternatives in that direction. Surely running a shuttle and pushing people onto Liverpool Street and slower Thameslink services at Cambridge is a better idea for crowding?

On the latter point, I get the impression GTR’s control doesn’t really think it through like that. It seems that during disruption they just firefight, so trains will terminate if the relevant driver isn’t in position to take it, if you’re lucky someone will spot this in advance, if not it will only become apparent once the train arrives at the relief point or in the case of King’s Cross gets to departure time and no driver appears.

Cambridge and Kings Lynn depots seem to be able to put together shuttle services sometimes, but the rest of the GN side just pulls the shutters down. Quite literally in the case of some station staff, as they presumably have had too many experiences of the service evaporating and not knowing what to say to intending passengers, so easier to just make them all go away.

 

[saismee]

On the latter point, I get the impression GTR’s control doesn’t really think it through like that. It seems that during disruption they just firefight, so trains will terminate if the relevant driver isn’t in position to take it, if you’re lucky someone will spot this in advance, if not it will only become apparent once the train arrives at the relief point or in the case of King’s Cross gets to departure time and no driver appears.

Cambridge and Kings Lynn depots seem to be able to put together shuttle services sometimes, but the rest of the GN side just pulls the shutters down. Quite literally in the case of some station staff, as they presumably have had too many experiences of the service evaporating and not knowing what to say to intending passengers, so easier to just make them all go away.

I sympathise with the poor staff who have to deal with the awful service. Customers in disruption, which is infrequent and usually only ~30 min delays, are bad enough at my station. I could see the Ely platform host's heart shatter a little bit when I asked her if the KLN train was cancelled, as she knew she would be surrounded by the angry commuters when their train terminated short.

 

[jon0844]

A family member of mine made a return journey from Kings Lynn to Kings Cross on Saturday. The plan was to travel on the 08:45 from KLN and meet me at Kings Cross and go to an event with me in London before travelling back to KLN later in the evening. Some residual disruption was expected due to Friday's track defect between Hitchin and Cambridge. Here's what happened.

The 06:45 and 07:45 departures were both cancelled. The 08:45 was a four car class 379 and left a few minutes late. The train was due to couple up to another four car unit at Cambridge. It was standing room only upon leaving Kings Lynn and fully wedged by Ely.

No additional unit appeared at Cambridge and the service continued as four cars all the way to Kings Cross, where it arrived on time. I observed the train arriving at KGX and it was one of the fullest four car trains I've ever seen. A very uncomfortable journey.

We arrived back at KGX in good time to carch the 19:48. The signs were not looking good when we discovered the 19:17 had been cancelled and the 19:48 was planned as four cars. I worked out which platform the 19:48 was planned to leave from and we made our way to it before the incoming train arrived. When the train eventually arrived, and the platform announced there was a rush of passengers. Many failed to get on it was so full.

At about 19:05 there was an annoucement onboard that the train had been cancelled and that 'passengers should return to the foyer to await the next departure'. I guessed that the next train at 20:48 , if it ran, would be uncomfortably busy but I hatched a plan to use the 20:31 Thameslink train to CBG which gave a 6 minute connection into the Kings Lynn train (i.e. the 20:48 ex-KGX). My thinking was that some passengers would get off at CBG and even if it was still wedged, the family member would spend less time on a wedged train.

The 12-car Thameslink train was empty north of Stevenage, so we had a pleasant journey. At Cambridge we positioned ourselves for a speedy interchange only to find that the train to KLN would be terminating at CBG and would not be continuing to KLN. Eventually the family member was put in a taxi from CBG to KLN. Staff at CBG were doing a good job in difficult circumstances.

I expect the two 8 car trains in the sidings at WGC were the other parts of the short formed trains from Cambridge. A lot of trains never got to Cambridge the night before.

 

[Failed Unit]

A mix of unit faults and driver absence has caused todays problems. But having only the working 4 cars of the train is better than no train at all right?

I would only say yes to that if they managed the overcrowdning, perhaps made it pick up only for all stations where other options exist.

 

[An_Engineer]

So as others are reporting, pretty abysmal reliability on GN lately (after what seemed some improvement). Since the evening peak London to Ely was posted recently, I looked up the opposite direction (as that's the one I catch) and it looks pretty grim.

The on-time stat is pretty poor, but the percentage of trains running is even poorer. Most services run less than 80% of the time, and some less than 63% of the time. So for a week commuting it's highly likely at least one of my trains will be cancelled (and seeing as I like to catch the 17:47, getting on at Cambs, actually it's more like two a week are cancelled)

For the past four weeks (Ely to London):

 

[bramling]

So as others are reporting, pretty abysmal reliability on GN lately (after what seemed some improvement). Since the evening peak London to Ely was posted recently, I looked up the opposite direction (as that's the one I catch) and it looks pretty grim.

The on-time stat is pretty poor, but the percentage of trains running is even poorer. Most services run less than 80% of the time, and some less than 63% of the time. So for a week commuting it's highly likely at least one of my trains will be cancelled (and seeing as I like to catch the 17:47, getting on at Cambs, actually it's more like two a week are cancelled)

For the past four weeks (Ely to London):
View attachment 206540

My personal stats for June so far.

I have attempted 5 journeys, 3 up, 2 down. Out of these, 2 cancelled. Remainder more-or-less right time.

 

[saismee]

I have attempted one journey this month. ELY <> KLN (returning immediately) and both were cancelled, though of course the immediate return will be cancelled if the outbound is.

 

[MikeWM]

I would only say yes to that if they managed the overcrowdning, perhaps made it pick up only for all stations where other options exist.

Doesn't look like it from RTT, still called at Letchworth and Royston and managed to lose 21 minutes by Cambridge. I bet that was a pleasant journey, not.

Everything tonight seems to be massively delayed - are there speed restrictions in place south of Cambridge, or are GN just being a bit useless for a change?

--

I have attempted one journey this month. ELY <> KLN (returning immediately)...

Kings Lynn isn't that bad Though I do feel I've dodged a bullet every time I go there and get back successfully, given how often the Fen Line falls over. I expect to be stuck there for a considerable amount of time one day in the near future.

 

[saismee]

Kings Lynn isn't that bad Though I do feel I've dodged a bullet every time I go there and get back successfully, given how often the Fen Line falls over. I expect to be stuck there for a considerable amount of time one day in the near future.

It was just to see my friend off home and kill some time while waiting for a specific train, so no intention or time to actually leave the station at King's Lynn. Not that I'd want to

 

[MikeWM]

It was just to see my friend off home and kill some time while waiting for a specific train, so no intention or time to actually leave the station at King's Lynn. Not that I'd want to

I actually quite like Kings Lynn - it has an 'old-style' HMV, a couple of fairly good retro gaming shops, and an independent cinema, all of which are good things as far as I'm concerned.

What it does need is a more reliable rail service - Watlington, Downham Market and Littleport are still (dis)gracing the bottom 10 on ontimetrains, with Kings Lynn just outside the bottom 100.

 

[jon0844]

Doesn't look like it from RTT, still called at Letchworth and Royston and managed to lose 21 minutes by Cambridge. I bet that was a pleasant journey, not.

Everything tonight seems to be massively delayed - are there speed restrictions in place south of Cambridge, or are GN just being a bit useless for a change?

--

Kings Lynn isn't that bad Though I do feel I've dodged a bullet every time I go there and get back successfully, given how often the Fen Line falls over. I expect to be stuck there for a considerable amount of time one day in the near future.

Sagging wires near Royston.

 

[bramling]

Sagging wires near Royston.

Anyone know what on earth happened with the inners? Know about the defective 717 at Drayton Park, but surely that wasn’t the reason for the entire inner service shutting up shop until the late evening?

 

[liam456]

Extremely annoying for me yesterday. Especially since it looked as if the Canonbury Curve was available for use to reverse services at Finsbury Park. One train failed and two stuck behind it shouldn't lead to the entire collapse of the evening peak service.

 

[Failed Unit]

Something else must have happened or GTR have really lost the plot. The recovery is normally divert to King’s Cross. Cancel diagrams of stranded units / crew and everything is fine. However the problems between Royston and Letchworth may have impacted getting crew around.

 

[Failed Unit]

Very disappointing - but typical week on GN.
The moved the Fenline to an hourly shuttle, removing all fast trains from Cambridge - London (that is probably a thread on its own)
I don’t know if it was planned or not but they also reduce the peak time service at many stations to hourly as the list of cancellations on the Northern City routes was massive.

Most days in the peak between Moorgate at Welwyn Garden City only the 1702 and 1802 were planned to run. The Kings Cross - Letchworth services were also frequently cancelled leaving Potters Bar and Hatfield a very limited service.GTR did stop some Thameslink services at Welwyn Garden City to enable people travelling home in the Northerly direction to at least complete their journey. The didn’t tell anyone until the last minute however so if you were at Blackfriars for example you would let a train to Peterborough pass only to find it Stopped anyway.

The did have the “Do not travel” notices up - However the reason this thread was started in the first place still exists, they just don’t communicate of have a plan to get their passengers from A-B. If they really do need to slim down the Northern City line it would be great if they planned a service every 30 minutes and told people about it!

 

[saismee]

A lot of TOCs quietly cut down the timetable which I think is silly. I think keeping the Fen Line as a shuttle is a very sensible approach to prevent spreading service disruption over a massive area. I haven't used GN in this weather but even GA were struggling massively with Friday being a total disaster, even with a slimmed-down timetable.

 

[Failed Unit]

This is a photo of the live departures from Moorgate on Friday between 1700 and 1800
1 Train per hour to WGC, 2 Trains to Stevenage and a single one to Finbury Park.

I doubt this was all down to the heat considering the 717s are not exactly intensively worked.

 

[tatitiliti]

Another disastrous day on GN between King’s Lynn and King’s Cross…

The December 2025 timetable change has undoubtedly made this worse. What possessed them to cut the recovery times at King’s Lynn and King’s Cross by so much? Disruption just compounds.

 

[Jim]

Another disastrous day on GN between King’s Lynn and King’s Cross…

The December 2025 timetable change has undoubtedly made this worse. What possessed them to cut the recovery times at King’s Lynn and King’s Cross by so much? Disruption just compounds.

I do wonder sometimes as well, if the Fen Line User Group (or whoever it was) much documented win in getting GTR/FCC to make KLN drivers go to London, has actually made it worse.

Previously, a self contained shuttle from a crewing perspective was (presumably?) easy to arrange, more so than now when many trains are "through drivers" and the like?

 

[jon0844]

I do wonder sometimes as well, if the Fen Line User Group (or whoever it was) much documented win in getting GTR/FCC to make KLN drivers go to London, has actually made it worse.

Previously, a self contained shuttle from a crewing perspective was (presumably?) easy to arrange, more so than now when many trains are "through drivers" and the like?

With so many trains from Cambridge to London it does seem more logical to run the Kings Lynn trains as shuttles. I assume a number of people change at Cambridge anyway for intermediate stations and for trains towards Liverpool Street and Stansted etc.

With splits and joins it can't be quicker than just changing train?

 

[tatitiliti]

With so many trains from Cambridge to London it does seem more logical to run the Kings Lynn trains as shuttles. I assume a number of people change at Cambridge anyway for intermediate stations and for trains towards Liverpool Street and Stansted etc.

With splits and joins it can't be quicker than just changing train?

Tend to agree, though I think one of the reasons this isn’t done is platform occupancy at Cambridge.

 

[tatitiliti]

I do wonder sometimes as well, if the Fen Line User Group (or whoever it was) much documented win in getting GTR/FCC to make KLN drivers go to London, has actually made it worse.

Previously, a self contained shuttle from a crewing perspective was (presumably?) easy to arrange, more so than now when many trains are "through drivers" and the like?

Fen Line User Association knows exactly what outcome they want but has zero practical (and several self-defeating) suggestions for achieving that outcome.

 

[WeGoAgain]

With so many trains from Cambridge to London it does seem more logical to run the Kings Lynn trains as shuttles. I assume a number of people change at Cambridge anyway for intermediate stations and for trains towards Liverpool Street and Stansted etc.

With splits and joins it can't be quicker than just changing train?

Hmmm, 48 ish minutes Cambridge to KGX (non-stop service)

60 ish minutes Cambridge to FPK (Brighton service).

If it all goes to plan, a split/attachment is not taking 12 minutes. Added to that, the hour on the Brighton Service only gets you to Finsbury Park as opposed to KGX or St. Pancras.

 

[jon0844]

Hmmm, 48 ish minutes Cambridge to KGX (non-stop service)

60 ish minutes Cambridge to FPK (Brighton service).

If it all goes to plan, a split/attachment is not taking 12 minutes. Added to that, the hour on the Brighton Service only gets you to Finsbury Park as opposed to KGX or St. Pancras.

Sorry, I meant the issues and delays with the splits and joins, and should have said much quicker.

 

[WeGoAgain]

Sorry, I meant the issues and delays with the splits and joins, and should have said much quicker.

No worries. You have a point. - There'd certainly be some pushback from the regular KLN - KGX - KLN users though. The connection times between the KLN - CBG arrival and the CBG - BTN departure will have to be robust also, and more robustness in the CBG - BTN service as it's the first one to be cut in times of disruption especially form the core Southbound.

 

[MikeWM]

Another disastrous day on GN between King’s Lynn and King’s Cross…

And today wasn't much better in the evening peak:

- 1648 from KGX only got as far as Cambridge before breaking down
- 1718 was 13 minutes late at KLN
- 1748 was 19 minutes late
- 1818 was cancelled due to *another* broken down train
- 1848 was 16 minutes late
- 1918 was cancelled, apparently a *third* broken down train?

This on a day with no disruptions on the route, no extreme weather, nothing much of note whatsoever.

 

[bramling]

Another disastrous day on GN between King’s Lynn and King’s Cross…

The December 2025 timetable change has undoubtedly made this worse. What possessed them to cut the recovery times at King’s Lynn and King’s Cross by so much? Disruption just compounds.

The previous arrangement was just as bad, however what that did was mix the disruption between the Fen Line and the Cambridge stopping service. The current arrangement at least insulates that service, but at the expense of exposing the Fen Line to the full force of Thameslink-related unreliability.

The original December 2018 timetable actually worked better, but this essentially swallowed up four platforms at King’s Cross off-peak allowing for very long turnrounds. This unfortunately was exactly what is needed to contain disruption, however it doesn’t seem to be viable any more. It’s deemed more important to offer more long-distance services than a reliable Fen Line service.

If the Cambridge and Kings Lynn route wants a reliable service, Cambridge-Brighton will have to be ditched in its current form. This does then leave the question of where the 2tph Cambridge semi-fast do go. Realistically no further south than Herne Hill turnback, I’d suggest.

 

[saismee]

Rather catastrophic day today. Seems 1T08 has gotten its pan wrapped up in the contact wire, so ALL services via Cambridge are cancelled or diverted. Can anyone confirm what is happening with services north and south? I know GA regional services are diverting/terminating at Ely, but what about GN on either side, or XC?