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The Labour Party under Andy Burnham

Nicholas Lewis

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Not to pick on you, but so many people have no idea about Britain's electoral system and system government.

We have a parliamentary democracy without a written constitution.

The prime minister is the person invited by the monarch to lead the government and that person governs with the confidence of the majority of the House of Commons.

You or I (if you live and vote in Surrey) never voted for Keir Starmer. Like we never voted for Rishi Sunak, Liz Truss, Boris Johnson, Theresa May, David Cameron, Gordon Brown or Tony Blair...
Why? Because neither of live in any of those previous PM's constituencies. We don't vote for a prime minister or a government, we vote for a local member of parliament who often just so happens to represent a political party.

As long as Burnham can command a majority in the Commons, he absolutely is legitimately governing. And that goes for anyone. There is no 'stealing' or other nonsense the right-wing press will undoubtedly come up with.



I understand that some people feel we vote for a PM/ Head of Government. However, they are wrong. I welcome them to push for a presidential style of government though whether like France's or the US one.
Its an unwritten system so it can be whatever people want it to be thats the problem. About time we have proper democratic system in this country that cant be manipulated.

The right wing press wont care they will just hark on about another general election because they want Labour gone which is what this has all been about from the start. I do hope they they continue with their same playbook over Burnham as well so come 2029 we end with a coalition that resets our political system.
 
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RailUK Forums

styles

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Saw this article and it really does put it into perspective. It must feel crap being in your early 20s and having been through 9 prime ministers:

At 23, I’m on my ninth prime minister – no wonder my generation don’t vote


I became eligible to vote in the summer of 2020 at the height of the pandemic. Since then I’ve seen four prime ministers occupy Downing Street: Boris Johnson, Liz Truss, Rishi Sunak and Keir Starmer. And after the Labour leader’s resignation today, it’s soon to be five.

In my 23 years there has been eight PMs, each arriving with promises of growth, stability or opportunity. For many older voters, that level of political turnover might feel extraordinary. Historically, Britain has been a beacon of political stability – and before 2016, many premiers served at least two terms. My grandparents talk about the Thatcher years, my parents about Cameron. I, however, have seen an iceberg lettuce last longer than Liz Truss.

This turnover is the defining political experience for my generation. We have entered adulthood during a period of almost constant upheaval. We officially left the EU six months before I turned 18; a global pandemic reshaped our education and social life; the cost of living has squeezed our finances; and the unemployment crisis leaves many of us struggling to even land a career. Through all of it, multiple prime ministers have occupied No 10, with not a single one lasting a full term.

Rather than associating a period of our lives with a particular government, our political memory is clouded by succession, multiple leadership contests and promises of change with what feels like no action.

According to the World Values Survey, 46 per cent of the British public said they had confidence in Parliament in 1990 – but by 2022 this had halved to 22 per cent. When King’s College London collected data as part of this project, they found that institutional confidence levels were much lower among Gen Zers aged 18 to 25 than among other generations.

I see that in my own friendship groups. Those who were excited to vote when we were teens now rarely follow politics at all. I could count on one hand the number of people I know who head to the polling station. They are simply disenchanted and disengaged.

One of the turning points for me was two months before I was old enough to vote: the May 2020 Bring Your Own Booze party, otherwise known as the revelation that 100 Downing Street staff were invited to a gathering during the first lockdown. At the time, most of my friends had just turned 18. We couldn’t celebrate. We’d accepted that, during the uncertain and terrifying times that were Covid, we’d wait. So when the news came that the No 10 staff had done the opposite, my own spiral of disengagement began.

When I became eligible to vote in 2020, Boris Johnson had just succeeded Theresa May. She had spoken about creating a country that worked for everyone and tackling what she described as “burning injustices”. There were promises to review higher education funding and soaring student debt.

For young people, these were huge concerns. One of the main reasons I didn’t attend university was the cost – a student loan wouldn’t have been enough for me to live on and I needed to work to support myself and my family. These promises gave me hope that my younger siblings wouldn’t have to wrestle with the huge financial burden, and choose to get a degree if they wanted to.

With economic insecurity growing, her commitments felt like the government understood the challenges facing younger generations. Johnson promised a “levelling-up” agenda and, following the pandemic, there were pledges that every young person would have access to opportunities, including the Youth Guarantee initiative, which sought to offer every young person the chance of an apprenticeship and “break the link between geography and destiny”.

The language was ambitious enough to give us hope. But that slowly dwindled. By the time Rishi Sunak entered Downing Street, the same promises were on repeat. It was a different leader presenting the same vision: more affordable homes, greater opportunity, a stronger economy.

Starmer, who succeeded him – but announced his resignation on Monday after 23 months – spoke about his own commitments to housing reform, economic growth and opportunities for younger generations. His government had a target of building 1.5 million homes, giving support to first-time buyers and providing more opportunities for young people.

But we are still waiting for results. Recent data shows that people under 30 are spending more than 30 per cent of their income on rent alone. Around 68 per cent of people my age live at home with their parents. Between January and March, 13.5 per cent of those aged between 16 and 24 were not in education, employment or training – Neets – equating to one million young people.

Andy Burnham, the former Greater Manchester mayor who is anticipated to be next at the top, has called for changes to the education system so it “offers a path for everybody”, and he has repeatedly advocated for alternative routes to training other than university.

In his victory speech on Friday after winning the Makerfield by-election, he said: “No more an education system dominated by the university route, but an education system that offers a path for everybody, academic and technical in equal balance.”

Whether those ambitions are achieved by him or the next successor remains to be seen, but it sounds like the same empty promises I’ve heard for six years.

Burnham – like every prime minister I have been able to vote for – has said that he recognises younger generations face unique pressures and problems. Each has attempted to present solutions but none has seemed to have turned them into lasting outcomes.

The question for my generation is no longer what the next prime minister will promise. It is whether any prime minister will remain in office long enough, and be effective enough, to actually deliver.
 

TravelDream

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The right wing press wont care they will just hark on about another general election because they want Labour gone which is what this has all been about from the start. I do hope they they continue with their same playbook over Burnham as well so come 2029 we end with a coalition that resets our political system.

Very true.
It's going to be a difficult time for him as the media goes on the attack along with calls for a new GE.
Burnham would, of course, be mad to call one given Labour's whopping majority.


2029 is a great worry.
We could, for the first time in modern British political history, have a true mess in parliament with no party being close to a majority and the government (if one can be formed at all) being a true rainbow coalition of odd bedfellows.
Obviously some counties, like the Netherlands, are very used to this, but we aren't and I can't see it working too well.

Oh, people do - but the reality is very different.

I really do think understanding of the system by the general public is poor.
Though it would be wrong to blame the public.
We have moved on to a more presidential style of election compared to even the Blair years. Things like leader's debates are inappropriate IMO. Lack of civics education is school doesn't help either.
 

AlterEgo

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I really do think understanding of the system by the general public is poor.
Though it would be wrong to blame the public.
We have moved on to a more presidential style of election compared to even the Blair years. Things like leader's debates are inappropriate IMO. Lack of civics education is school doesn't help either.
Thr thing is, government is now actually conducted in a more presidential way. So it has to start there and it is hard to see how.
 

Tetchytyke

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I really do think understanding of the system by the general public is poor.
It is, but that’s not why we have presidential-style personality politics. Something which started with Thatcher, if not before.

If most people ever understood just how little their vote matters- unless they live in one of about 50-100 constituencies- there’d be more of a demand to reform our ridiculous voting system.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Very true.
It's going to be a difficult time for him as the media goes on the attack along with calls for a new GE.
Burnham would, of course, be mad to call one given Labour's whopping majority.


2029 is a great worry.
We could, for the first time in modern British political history, have a true mess in parliament with no party being close to a majority and the government (if one can be formed at all) being a true rainbow coalition of odd bedfellows.
Obviously some counties, like the Netherlands, are very used to this, but we aren't and I can't see it working too well.
Personally I was quite content with the 2010-15 coalition as the liberals took the edge of the Tory agenda but then voters gave the LDs a bloody nose for seemingly permitting Torys any latitude but unfortunately that is the outcome you get from coalitions
 

TravelDream

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Thr thing is, government is now actually conducted in a more presidential way. So it has to start there and it is hard to see how.
It is, but that’s not why we have presidential-style personality politics. Something which started with Thatcher, if not before.

If most people ever understood just how little their vote matters- unless they live in one of about 50-100 constituencies- there’d be more of a demand to reform our ridiculous voting system.

Very true. It's a shame IMO, but I suppose it's the continuing direction of travel. Perhaps I should be less rigid, but I hate the narrative that forms that X wasn't elected/ has no mandate or the shameful 'squatter in number 10' headlines from 2010.

Very true on the second point too. My 'home' constituency has voted Labour in every election since 1922. People there don't change governments.


Personally I was quite content with the 2010-15 coalition as the liberals took the edge of the Tory agenda but then voters gave the LDs a bloody nose for seemingly permitting Torys any latitude but unfortunately that is the outcome you get from coalitions

How about a scenario where Reform, the Tories, the DUP and maybe an oddball independent or two have a bare majority only because Sinn Fein don't take their seats?
Or a Labour, Lib Dem, SNP, Green coalition with confidence and supply from the Gaza independents and Plaid Cymru?
It would be wild and essentially ungovernable IMO and neither the political class nor the electorate are ready for it.

Very different to the quite stable 2010 coalition government.
 

Horizon22

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Very true.
It's going to be a difficult time for him as the media goes on the attack along with calls for a new GE.
Burnham would, of course, be mad to call one given Labour's whopping majority.


2029 is a great worry.
We could, for the first time in modern British political history, have a true mess in parliament with no party being close to a majority and the government (if one can be formed at all) being a true rainbow coalition of odd bedfellows.
Obviously some counties, like the Netherlands, are very used to this, but we aren't and I can't see it working too well.

Well we could actually bite the bullet and finally - as Burnham has supported - introduce proprtional representation in this country for the clear 5 party (England) politics we have here. I genuinely thing this would give people a little bit more freedom to vote for who they want to rather than just voting against or making the "tactical vote". You can still do that with 2nd preferences, but it would reduce some of the democractic defecit we have here. We do it in Scotland and Wales, and it happens in almost all of Europe so it's not a completely alien concept.

That being said, Labour have promised PR multiple times before and then completely reneged on it but on this occasion where they have a sizable majority but might be staring down a big defeat in 2028/2029, they might actually think it benefits them this time.
 

Magrar

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Thatcher took advice from Ministers where that advice was relevant. There was a respect as well as a clear chain command. From Blair onwards, the secretive Number 10 unit of advisers came to dominate, and exert unwarranted and frankly undemocratic influence over policy and communications.

The disaster of Nicola Sturgeon is living proof of how quickly such a thing can ruin even the most powerful, Cabinet led, democratic wave, where a single dominating spokesman is just that, a figurehead, a leader, not the font of all wisdom and the seat of all power.

This exposes number 3242493 of the many reasons Starmer was an awful Prime Minister. He came to power telling people things would change. But not only did this well known problem not end, Starmer apparently took it to a whole new level, where even the highest ranked Cabinet Ministers, and certainly the junior ones, were made to feel like they were literally of a lower rank than his mere advisers.

We'll never even know why he tolerated it. Starmer clearly wasn't a busy man, not like Thatcher was. There was tons of lightweight fluff he engaged in, no doubt ironically after advice that he had an image problem.

All we can say is that this probably played a big role in a fair few of his other mistakes. As is said by the most seasoned of veterans, a Minister's job is to tell you things you don't necesarily want to hear.

An adviser is a literal employee of the person he is advising. If the adviser is excellent at their job, you'll allow them to speak freely and frankly. Were a single one of Starmer's advisers actually any good? Clearly not. You can annoy and even enrage your Cabinet if you're getting results. Was Starmer getting results? Clearly not.

And worst of all, there's talk that his approach in this key area of leadership, meant that one Minister, the Chancellor, due to her importance in everything Starmer was being advised on, came to view herself as an equal if not a superior to the Prime Minister, in the continuing Starmer originated project to ensure a Labour government remained credible. Quite incredible really.
 

Railwaycat

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a survey of primary and secondary school children by the ons in 2023.
• 35.0% accepted a friend request from someone they did not know.
• 8.5% shared their location publicly.
• 19.2% spoke to or exchanged messages with someone they didn’t know.
• 4.4% met with a person they didn’t know.
• 9.5% aged 13 to 15 received an unsolicited sexual message.
• 19.1% experienced bullying online. Known as cyberbullying.

Look North spoke to a group of teenagers about the social media ban - one teenager said it was wrong, because he got the news from social media, so how would he keep up to date....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Starmer clearly wasn't a busy man, not like Thatcher was.

Yes, I always thought Thatcher was a man....
 

ainsworth74

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Banning kids from social networking sites which at least have some sort of moderation will push them to social networking sites which don’t. That doesn’t sound like the best idea to me.
Yes the real answer to things like this isn't just banning children from social media it's insisting that social media sites have effective and robust content moderation.

This Forum is, despite having a tiny tiny fraction of the resources (and users!) of something like Twitter or Facebook, subject to the Online Safety Act just the same as they are and has far more (if I do say so myself) robust moderation when it comes to keeping people safe from inappropriate content than they do. Twitter can happily have an AI going around making pornography of women and girls and very little blow back, despite all the OSA issues that poses and seems to have, so far, suffered very little blow back. Quite apart from the more common or garden issues that crop up on Facebook and Twitter.

The answer is in forcing the likes of Twitter and Facebook to actually do moderation of their sites. Not just ban people from accessing them.
What I genuinely can’t decide is whether the government are idiots in passing this nonsense through, or whether it is a cynical thin-end-of-the-wedge thing with the real purpose of actually preventing people from accessing to information the government disagrees with.
My thing is that even if this government is just idiots (which I reckon it is rather than anything more sinister) what this does is simply put a loaded gun in the hands of the government and whilst it might not be this one, or even the next one, there will come a day when a government decides to use that gun to prevent access to information that it finds inconvenient.
 

Magrar

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We must do something, this is something, we must do this.

Banning kids from social networking sites which at least have some sort of moderation will push them to social networking sites which don’t. That doesn’t sound like the best idea to me.

I remember the very early TikTok when it was still called musical.ly and it was a genuine free for all, and not in a good way. TikTok had to change and improve because of commercial pressures. This ban will simply be a fast track to going right back to the bad old days.

It’s exactly what has happened with the gentleman’s literature websites. Sites which at least had some sort of content moderation and some sort of ethical standards have either put in age verification walls or left the UK market entirely. The consequence of this is that people will instead be pushed towards the websites which don’t care about OFCOM and also don’t care about content moderation. Again, doesn’t sound like the best idea to me.

What I genuinely can’t decide is whether the government are idiots in passing this nonsense through, or whether it is a cynical thin-end-of-the-wedge thing with the real purpose of actually preventing people from accessing to information the government disagrees with.
The basic principle is that of the line in the sand.

You cannot just sit there and in good conscience let kid's brains literally be rewired. You see them walking to school today, barely 10, and yet already a walking zombie, their eyeballs commodified by Zuckerberg.

You cannot sit idly by knowing they have unfettered access to extreme porn, or have a device in their hand that allows them to be tricked into sending nude pictures of themselves to strangers or worse, other kids.

It's a very wierd world we live in that such things don't invoke sheer rage and utter vomit in voters or politicians, and that if you show any emotion on the subject, you are immediately pidgeonholed by supposedly smart well educated people as a Reform voting nutjob who has themselves been brainwashed by the Zuck.

The line in the sand changes the conversation. It establishes the clear and inarguable fact that once the line is drawn, the parent or company that allows, whether through action or inaction, these things to continue, to be classed as a law breaker. They are a threat to society.

That is when it becomes possible to have meaningful debate about what you then do about issues like how and why the ban is so easily circumvented. And at a stroke it lifts the burden away from schools and parents just trying to do the right thing, but with nothing but frankly utterly pointless "guidance" from government to assist them.

At a stroke, you have even set the education department down a positive, useful, forward thinking path. Kids could finally benefit from having a phone on their desk for an educational and welfare purpose. Kids with neaurdovergence or other special needs could even be included in mainstream education (which, if anyone has forgotten, is still actually an official Labour policy).

Starmer was not the man to do things like this, patently. It's actually a complete and total disgrace that he wasted two years on a critically important issue like kids and nude selfies, and if only we didn't have distractions like Trump and Farage in the world right now, we could get back to a situation where people who are as negligent as that in public office, so casual about literally preventable human fatalities and suffering, would be crucified as hard as anyone involved in Grenfell or Horizon etc.

But no. We all have to play this nonsense game where someone on Twitter simply spends all day waiting for someone to say "I am trying to protect my kids" and they will be accused of starting riots and helping Nazis. Did Zuckerberg or the other members of the all poweful Never Labour shadow cabal of rich elites make these people do that?

Since it works the same way, triggered outrage and siloing, and so helps the rich elites get what they want, namely zero government interference in their bottom line, you have to ironically say, hell yes.
 

GusB

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You cannot sit idly by knowing they have unfettered access to extreme porn, or have a device in their hand that allows them to be tricked into sending nude pictures of themselves to strangers or worse, other kids.
I don't think anyone is sitting idly by knowing that kids have unfettered access to such material. The fact of the matter is that phones have already built-in parental controls that should prevent access to most sites that label themselves as for over 18s only and the more "reputable" of these sites will have already implemented age verification processes as required by law. As long as other countries don't implement similar legislation, this is easily circumvented through the use of Virtual Private Networks - are you going to ban VPNs, too?

Banning this social networking site or that one simply doesn't work because people will find alternatives, as they did in the past. MySpace and Bebo were once popular and fell out of favour as Facebook and Twitter grew - that's a natural process. How do you propose to restrict the likes of Mastodon or Bluesky when these platforms are federated and don't come under the control of one single organisation? All it will take is for some enterprising kid to set up their own instance of one of these platforms and then share the details with their friends. Web hosting can be obtained for pocket-money prices and a domain name can be just as cheap. You'll end up playing a never-ending game of whack-a-mole.

What we need is more education on the dangers present on the internet, and then we teach the kids about it! In any case, online safety isn't just about preventing harm to children, but preventing online fraud too, a massive problem that currently costs society dearly. How on earth can we expect children to learn about online safety when their parents are clueless too?

Here's a radical suggestion - how about we actually give kids something else to do? Make sure that there's sufficient funding for sports facilities, youth clubs, musical activities etc., all things that have been slashed because of austerity. Make it cheaper for people to get about so that a family can go to visitor attractions without it costing an arm and a leg.
 

HSTEd

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The basic principle is that of the line in the sand.

You cannot just sit there and in good conscience let kid's brains literally be rewired. You see them walking to school today, barely 10, and yet already a walking zombie, their eyeballs commodified by Zuckerberg.

You cannot sit idly by knowing they have unfettered access to extreme porn, or have a device in their hand that allows them to be tricked into sending nude pictures of themselves to strangers or worse, other kids.

It's a very wierd world we live in that such things don't invoke sheer rage and utter vomit in voters or politicians, and that if you show any emotion on the subject, you are immediately pidgeonholed by supposedly smart well educated people as a Reform voting nutjob who has themselves been brainwashed by the Zuck.

I feel the problem is there is no technical way to do any of these things without totally destroying privacy.
There is no way to ban under 16s from social media without functionally abolishing online anonymity.

There is no way to stop children sending certain types of messages without either totally breaking all encryption or installing Jess Phillip's proposed monitoring software on all phones.

And do you really think that once the state has a pre-constructed database of all online activity and has imposed always-on device side monitoring on all phones it will only ever be used to "protect the children"?
Sure, the government can obtain this information for small groups of people but doing so requires significant effort which makes mass monitoring impractical, with these systems an algorithmic system will be able to watch everyone all the time.

Once such a system is created its use will inevitably expand, we already have government and media figures ranting that large amounts of criticism is based on "disinformation" and is stirred up by "foreign bots". It's the standard language used in places like Russia to crush all dissent and maintain control.

I'd like to avoid these bad things if we can, but at the same time I don't want a panopticon that will be used by politicians to maintain their power. Once such an apparatus is built you cannot control how it will be used in any meaningful sense.
 
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The Ham

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Here's a radical suggestion - how about we actually give kids something else to do? Make sure that there's sufficient funding for sports facilities, youth clubs, musical activities etc., all things that have been slashed because of austerity. Make it cheaper for people to get about so that a family can go to visitor attractions without it costing an arm and a leg.

Indeed, the thing is, something like access to a pool and other sports facilities would also benefit the wider community too.

Not only that but it would likely make people fitter and so could be cost neutral by keeping people healthier for longer and therfore saving money by reducing the cost to the NHS.

Whilst I often talk about the good facilities we have, sports facilities are well below the District average and to access anything within the District (even with a car) is difficult.

Whilst, given the population of 10,000 isn't normally enough to justify a swimming pool there are a nunnery of factors which suggest that one should at least be planned:
1) the council's policy on sports provision is over 10 years old and there's been around 600 homes (so at least 1,250 additional people since then)
2) the policy counts access to two pools at private schools, only at least one has no public access to it
3) the policy doesn't consider how easy access to sports provision is, not even by car, and certainly not by public transport, the nearest publicly provided pools are at least a 10 minute drive (and that's cross boundary or only exists due to it being provided by the MOD) or are at least a 20 minute drive
3a) the nearest pool provided by the MOD, really is only large enough to cater for the
community in which it's based
4) with the need for more housing to be provided, there could be enough development happen to have a local population which is high enough to justify a local leisure centre fairly soon
5) there's a below average provision for other sports facilities already and so it's not unreasonable to plan for more sports provision, and given that there's other settlements which would benefit from it (which would likely tip the balance enough to justify a pool) it makes sense to at least plan for a leisure centre with pool
6) the local school (for year 5 swimming lessons, where they have 120 pupils per year group) find it hard to find suitable pool facilities which are available (even when they split to 2 groups)
7) access to pools generally is hard due to the number of swimming lessons classes there are - and whilst that may not significantly change with a local pool, the fact that it's local would mean that there's another option
8) traffic would reduce, as a whole load of young people would be able to get to the facilities by themselves and if it was provided within a short distance of the school (and there's are options which would be available to do this) would reduce the need for parents to drive them to swimming lessons

Whilst I've based this on my local settlement, I'm sure there's others which would benefit from such provision. Although it's likely to be limited, so even setting aside £1bn a year for 10 years (maybe even £0.5bn over 20 years) would likely be enough (especially given some of that money is already being provided by developers for sports provision and could be funded by higher council tax income from the extra housing).

It just needs some joined up thinking (I.e. acknowledging that the cost of doing this will save money elsewhere) and putting in place a decent policy to ensure that the facilities are provided where they are most needed.
 

jon0844

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You cannot just sit there and in good conscience let kid's brains literally be rewired. You see them walking to school today, barely 10, and yet already a walking zombie, their eyeballs commodified by Zuckerberg.

You cannot sit idly by knowing they have unfettered access to extreme porn, or have a device in their hand that allows them to be tricked into sending nude pictures of themselves to strangers or worse, other kids.

It's a very wierd world we live in that such things don't invoke sheer rage and utter vomit in voters or politicians, and that if you show any emotion on the subject, you are immediately pidgeonholed by supposedly smart well educated people as a Reform voting nutjob who has themselves been brainwashed by the Zuck.

The line in the sand changes the conversation. It establishes the clear and inarguable fact that once the line is drawn, the parent or company that allows, whether through action or inaction, these things to continue, to be classed as a law breaker. They are a threat to society.

That is when it becomes possible to have meaningful debate about what you then do about issues like how and why the ban is so easily circumvented. And at a stroke it lifts the burden away from schools and parents just trying to do the right thing, but with nothing but frankly utterly pointless "guidance" from government to assist them.

At a stroke, you have even set the education department down a positive, useful, forward thinking path. Kids could finally benefit from having a phone on their desk for an educational and welfare purpose. Kids with neaurdovergence or other special needs could even be included in mainstream education (which, if anyone has forgotten, is still actually an official Labour policy).

Starmer was not the man to do things like this, patently. It's actually a complete and total disgrace that he wasted two years on a critically important issue like kids and nude selfies, and if only we didn't have distractions like Trump and Farage in the world right now, we could get back to a situation where people who are as negligent as that in public office, so casual about literally preventable human fatalities and suffering, would be crucified as hard as anyone involved in Grenfell or Horizon etc.

But no. We all have to play this nonsense game where someone on Twitter simply spends all day waiting for someone to say "I am trying to protect my kids" and they will be accused of starting riots and helping Nazis. Did Zuckerberg or the other members of the all poweful Never Labour shadow cabal of rich elites make these people do that?

Since it works the same way, triggered outrage and siloing, and so helps the rich elites get what they want, namely zero government interference in their bottom line, you have to ironically say, hell yes.

I don't think we can overestimate just how much big tech firms and both politicians and other rich people, oligarchs etc use things like social media (and increasingly the 'mainstream media' they've bought out) to control the narrative.

It impacts adults just as much, which is perhaps as big a problem as children being influenced and becoming addicted.

There's a reason why Elon takes such a big interest in politics and interferes with the UK and Europe, while his dad is in Russia with Tommy Multinames to discuss 'tactics' so-to-speak. Europe is fighting back, but the EU is a group of states and has more power and perhaps less ability to be manipulated as a result. The UK is heavily weakened, and any leader trying to push back is literally one voice versus the multitude of voices online - mostly made up of bots and bad actors who you'll usually find are based around the world, including places like India, Russia, Nigeria and the USA.

The PM also led at a time when AI is now becoming commonplace and extremely good at fooling people, which doesn't just mean your nan is conned into buying a lifelike puppy robot, but convinces people that any chosen country/location is full of crime. I mean, look, you can see all those immigrants attacking that white woman in a video! It's real, honest!

I'm not sure the previous Government really had to deal with that level of manipulation, and it's certainly not going away unless the new PM does something about it. If they attempt to, they'll be attacked from every angle. If they don't declare their support for Israel, you can be sure they'll be attacked on that front too by the Zionists who are extremely good lobbyists.

Our political system is broken.

I hate to say it, but the only way the spell is likely to be broken is if Reform takes power and totally destroys the country like Trump has in the USA. Now a lot of MAGA have woken up and realised what's going on. I expect we would too, but the damage to us would be huge. Could the NHS recover from the changes Farage has been proposing (albeit a while ago as he is strangely quiet these days on any policy other than 'sending them back' which wins the most support).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Well, she had enough man in her to retake the Falklands

I wouldn't trust Labour as it is now to retake a Greggs or Starbucks

As said above, we are weak outside of the EU. That was of course always the plan when the likes of Cambridge Analytica and wealthy donors helped to make Brexit happen. Right now, we need to be something bigger to take on the attacks from the big tech firms in the USA and the onslaught of fake stories funded by places like Russia.
 

nw1

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True. It's certainly high stakes and if Burnham fails to achieve what are some incredibly hard targets, I fear that's just giving Reform the next GE on a plate.

Not necessarily - it just means Labour are more likely to lose.

A lot of people hate Reform with unbridled passion and would be prepared to vote for a party very different in ideology to their own to prevent that happening. There will be tactical voting like we've never seen before. Left-wingers voting Tory - yes, really.

There seems to be a prevailing attitude that Reform are the only alternative to Labour but they are not. As I've said before there are a number of other options, including a Tory revival or a progressive coalition. Perhaps even a coalition between Tories and others to keep Reform out.

More likely than Reform winning - I would hope - is we get a whole load of parties all achieving between 15-20% with an unpredictable result.
 
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Falcon1200

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You or I (if you live and vote in Surrey) never voted for Keir Starmer.

We do know that! What we, or I at least, did vote for was a Labour Party led by Keir Starmer who would, if they won the election, become Prime Minister. What we most certainly did not vote for, or even imagine, was a Prime Minister who was not even an MP at the the time of the election.

The right wing press wont care they will just hark on about another general election because they want Labour gone which is what this has all been about from the start.

I do wonder whether Andy Burnham might himself have called for a General Election when the Tories replaced their Prime Minister?
 

nw1

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We do know that! What we, or I at least, did vote for was a Labour Party led by Keir Starmer who would, if they won the election, become Prime Minister. What we most certainly did not vote for, or even imagine, was a Prime Minister who was not even an MP at the the time of the election.

I do wonder whether Andy Burnham might himself have called for a General Election when the Tories replaced their Prime Minister?

So would you be prepared to risk a Reform government if we had a GE now?

I wouldn't be opposed to a GE if the likely outcome was anything other than a Reform government. But I think that Reform are so hardline in their views and so potentially damaging to the country that a GE must be resisted if that is an at all likely outcome.
I honestly believe Reform are not rational, in my opinion they are so utterly wrapped up in ideology that they would cause huge economic and social damage to the country and not care. You've only got to look at their leader - probably the most obnoxious UK MP since Enoch Powell and a man who appears to despise large swathes of the population - and the calibre of some of their candidates. A Government and a Parliament full of Robert Kenyons - no thanks!

On the other hand if Burnham/Labour did some opinion polling in the early days which showed they were likely to win and the risk of a Reform win was very low, then yes - he should hold one. But you'd be a fool to hold a GE you would lose.
 
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Falcon1200

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I wouldn't be opposed to a GE if the likely outcome was anything other than a Reform government.

Surely the criteria for whether a General Election is morally or politically required cannot be who might win it! Personally I will never, ever vote Reform, and would indeed vote tactically if necessary to stop them, but the outcome of any election is not determined by me alone (unlike in an Isaac Asimov story I recall, in which a computer selected just one US citizen to vote for their next President... )
 

Nicholas Lewis

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So would you be prepared to risk a Reform government if we had a GE now?

I wouldn't be opposed to a GE if the likely outcome was anything other than a Reform government. But I think that Reform are so hardline in their views and so potentially damaging to the country that a GE must be resisted if that is an at all likely outcome.
I honestly believe Reform are not rational, in my opinion they are so utterly wrapped up in ideology that they would cause huge economic and social damage to the country and not care. You've only got to look at their leader - probably the most obnoxious UK MP since Enoch Powell and a man who appears to despise large swathes of the population - and the calibre of some of their candidates. A Government and a Parliament full of Robert Kenyons - no thanks!

On the other hand if Burnham/Labour did some opinion polling in the early days which showed they were likely to win and the risk of a Reform win was very low, then yes - he should hold one. But you'd be a fool to hold a GE you would lose.
Reform arent that prepared for GE their Makerfield candidate exemplifies that but give them a few more years and they could have changed that. The much bigger risk for Burnham is it would end up in coalition probably with Liberals and Greens but equally it could be Tories & Reform. Thus Burnham wont and have to rely upon his changed strategy delivering them back in 2029.
 

DoubleLemon

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Look North spoke to a group of teenagers about the social media ban - one teenager said it was wrong, because he got the news from social media, so how would he keep up to date....
The worst stat is (despite numerous attempts to explain to school children):
• 4.4% met with a person they didn’t know. - They agreed to meet a random person they didn't know who they spoke to online. People are nervous about meting people on online dating sites.
• 9.5% aged 13 to 15 received an unsolicited sexual message.
 

nw1

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Surely the criteria for whether a General Election is morally or politically required cannot be who might win it! Personally I will never, ever vote Reform, and would indeed vote tactically if necessary to stop them, but the outcome of any election is not determined by me alone (unlike in an Isaac Asimov story I recall, in which a computer selected just one US citizen to vote for their next President... )

If there are severe moral problems with one of the outcomes, I would disagree, to a point. Obviously we have to have a GE by the legally-mandated date, but IMV there is no requirement to have one before then. The moral problems of a Reform government outweigh, IMV, the moral problems with the new Labour leader not seeking a mandate from the public.

The norm is not to have a GE under these circumstances, stretching right back to 1976, so if there were not to be one, it would be nothing unusual.
 

DoubleLemon

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There seems to be a prevailing attitude that Reform are the only alternative to Labour but they are not. As I've said before there are a number of other options, including a Tory revival or a progressive coalition. Perhaps even a coalition between Tories and others to keep Reform out.
Even with Restore being further right, Reform is still getting a huge number of posts and comments on social media by bots and content farms- all fake but amplifying reforms profile.
One would think farage's connection to Russa might have something to do with that. They are out in thousands. All with posts saying pretty much the same thing with slight variations.
 

styles

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If there are severe moral problems with one of the outcomes, I would disagree, to a point. Obviously we have to have a GE by the legally-mandated date, but IMV there is no requirement to have one before then.
I don't think the general public would even support a snap election. I think most of us, even those engaged with politics, are bored of voting at the moment. Starmer won basically on a ticket of bringing some sort of stability; I don't think the desire for that has yet waned.
 

nw1

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Reform arent that prepared for GE their Makerfield candidate exemplifies that but give them a few more years and they could have changed that. The much bigger risk for Burnham is it would end up in coalition probably with Liberals and Greens but equally it could be Tories & Reform. Thus Burnham wont and have to rely upon his changed strategy delivering them back in 2029.

Interesting point - perhaps Burnham should conduct opinion polling in the early days and make the decision based on that.
 

JamesT

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If there are severe moral problems with one of the outcomes, I would disagree, to a point. Obviously we have to have a GE by the legally-mandated date, but IMV there is no requirement to have one before then. The moral problems of a Reform government outweigh, IMV, the moral problems with the new Labour leader not seeking a mandate from the public.

The norm is not to have a GE under these circumstances, stretching right back to 1976, so if there were not to be one, it would be nothing unusual.
Sorry, how do you get a severe moral problem with one of the outcomes? I get you don't like Farage, but he's just a politician. He's not standing on a platform of killing all the firstborn, but a selection of policies that would be uncontroversial in many countries. If that's what the electorate choose, why shouldn't they get it?
 

Magrar

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First, let's get real. Kids of today are properly technically illiterate, precisely because big tech has reduced them to dumb scrolling. They literally needed Auntie Gemini and Uncle TikTok to even tell them about VPNs when Australia implemented their ban.

So you're not going to have to work very hard to frustrate, detect and prevent any attempt by an "enterprising" kid who has their sights set on not just getting around a law to protect them, but being the online equivalent of a distributor of narcoticss and weapons to other kids.

Second, the internet of today is not what libertarians think it is. It's already highly centralised, surveiled and controlled, by both big tech and governments. There are multiple points of leverage and critical vulnerabilities now.

Even Wikipedia has found out to their shock, there are limits to the whole "but the internet, public good and privacy waaah!" argument, when a UK government is determined to protect its most vulnerable citizens.

And they're certainly not going to pull out of the UK rather than comply. And even if they did, to those of us who know Wikipedia's dark sides, their shockingly negligent attitude to safety and accuracy when doing so would be a threat to their operating model, that would be no bad thing.

And sure, you can theoretically copy Wikipedia a million times, even set up multiple working versions as a means to frustrate the UK regulators (although amusingly, as Wikipedia gets closer and closer to big tech, becomig ever more like a tech and social media company with merely an encylopedia attached), such copies would be less and less functional.

The really hilarious part? If you did that, you will get a cease and desist from Wikipedia. You can do whatever you want with their content, especially if you're fighting the famously tyrannical amd privacy invading UK Government, but you will absolutely not be allowed to use the Wikipedia name, or imply in any way, you are associated with or endorsed by the rightful legal owners of that brand. The CEO of which you probably couldn't even name (hint: it's not Jimmy Wales).

And because we still live in the real world, where most servers are not yet located off world, and most internet traffic is not yet transmitted as quantum data, they can and they will stop you, and make you pay their costs and the massive fine. Unless you want to partner with China/Russia in your fight for freedom. So good luck with that.

So that's the first and likely only means needed there. Kids want TikTok, SnapChat and InstaGram, the real deal, not a home brewed barely working not nearly as widely used cheap knock off run in some Chinese basement or sovereign free territory in Alaska knock off.

They probably really would rather just go to a youth club instead, if their digital horizons reach a practical limit of who they know can be trusted not to grass. You can build one using the fines this law would generate, that being the modern way of funding good things.

This is where parents need to be educated. Big tech has normalised kids having friend networks stretching for hundreds of miles, not neighbourhoods or even year groups. Very very close intimate friends who you trust and share anything with. That's the whole point of it all. A vast dragnet for data mining and eyeball commodification. Not a digital version of a small close knit peer group.

Suffice to say, if the UK Government is having a pretty easy time of bringing Wikipedia to heel, and otherwise blocking access to the most horrendous but very highly adaptable and sophisticated bad sites, you can bet your life the NCA is laughing at how easy it would be to counter the workaround of a kid thinking he's smarter than all of that technically literate and resource heavy effort at breaking existing laws.

All that is needed now, is political will. And if all the libertarians are going to do is stonewall using outdated arguments and the never effective slippery slope argument, ignoring as it does the already highly invasive and controlling nature of our present society, broadly accepted, and soon to be boosted with AI and next level biometrics, that political will, wiil arrive, and be used.

Andy will do it. It's the right thing to do. It's a vote winner. A Reform killer. It's something a man with passion and conviction will do. Has to do. Was born to do.
 

nw1

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Sorry, how do you get a severe moral problem with one of the outcomes? I get you don't like Farage, but he's just a politician. He's not standing on a platform of killing all the firstborn, but a selection of policies that would be uncontroversial in many countries. If that's what the electorate choose, why shouldn't they get it?

There has to be a line somewhere, and for me, Reform are the wrong side of the line. To take two examples, scrapping Indefinite Leave to Remain, and benefits for those with settled status, are to my mind irrational, hard-right, xenophobic nonsense, driven IMO by Farage's own personal prejudices which he has exhibited since he was at school.

The Tories are however on the right side of the line, even though I really don't like their policies at all.

Let's say some hypothetical party, let's call it the PPP (People's Populist Party), campaigned for the recriminalisation of gay sex, and was achieving 25-30% support due to also being anti-immigration with a risk of winning. Would it or would it not be a major moral problem if they got in? Should right-thinking people try to delay a GE until the latest possible date, by which time the PPP threat may have passed?

I'm simply saying that the moral problem of risking such parties winning a GE is greater than the moral problem of taking over as PM without a GE. If there was as much moralising about Reform getting in as there is about Starmer's supposed misdeeds or Burnham becoming PM without a GE, this country would be a much better place. As a country we seem to be too focused on individual misdeeds and not focused enough on the big picture. I'm not sure if this is a UK-specific problem or a problem across the Western world in general.
 
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