If there were no trams in Manchester now...

[northwichcat]

...what would you recommend for first Metrolink operations?

I'd suggest the following:
Service 1: Middleton-Prestwich-Victoria-Piccadilly
Service 2: Middleton-Prestwich-Victoria-Deansgate-Media City-Old Trafford
Service 3: Piccadilly-Deansgate-Media City-Old Trafford

All completely new lines.

With future extensions to look at if successful:
Heywood-Middleton
Piccadilly-Eastlands
Old Trafford-The Trafford Centre

 

[radamfi]

You say it is a new line so how are you getting from Prestwich to Victoria? Is this supposed to be street running? Why not run directly along Rochdale Road from Middleton? That would be a completely new route whereas Prestwich to central Manchester was/is already served by the Bury Line.

 

[tom1649]

Well the third rail infrastructure on the Bury line would be well and truly falling to bits by now. In fact it was life expired in 1991. Perhaps it would still be a candidate for conversion or it may have been converted to 25kv overhead/de-electrified for heavy rail.

 

[northwichcat]

You say it is a new line so how are you getting from Prestwich to Victoria? Is this supposed to be street running? Why not run directly along Rochdale Road from Middleton? That would be a completely new route whereas Prestwich to central Manchester was/is already served by the Bury Line.

I was thinking along the lines of Middleton-Rhodes-M60 J19 (for Park+Ride), probably going down the eastern side of Heaton Park opposed to actually in to Prestwich itself then to Victoria via either Higher Broughton or Cheetham Hill.

A Heywood extension would also allow an M62 Park+Ride.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well the third rail infrastructure on the Bury line would be well and truly falling to bits by now. In fact it was life expired in 1991. Perhaps it would still be a candidate for conversion or it may have been converted to 25kv overhead/de-electrified for heavy rail.

I perhaps should have made up a complete scenario saying whether the S-Bahn type system with an underground city centre section had been established instead of Metrolink. If it had there would still be scope for trams as well, as is the case in many German cities.

 

[radamfi]

I perhaps should have made up a complete scenario saying whether the S-Bahn type system with an underground city centre section had been established instead of Metrolink.

Oh yes, like the Picc-Vic project, which was ultimately more suitable than Metrolink for a sprawling conurbation like GM, but is not as iconic or glamorous as Metrolink. Get Greater Manchester Transport Review 1978 if you can find for a good description of railways in GM in the 70s and the proposed Picc-Vic project. I took it out of Oldham Central Library in the late 80s so maybe it is still there.

 

[northernrail]

A tram line in Middleton, just what i want...

For Middleton-Victoria, id miss Prestwich and go from Middleton along Manchester Old Road, then along Middleton Road and so on to Victoria.

 

[WatcherZero]

Well the third rail infrastructure on the Bury line would be well and truly falling to bits by now. In fact it was life expired in 1991. Perhaps it would still be a candidate for conversion or it may have been converted to 25kv overhead/de-electrified for heavy rail.

I imagine it would have gone to diesel.

 

[WestCoast]

Yes, a S-Bahn type system through the Picc-Vicc tunnel to replace shoddy pacers with trams along key bus corridors such as Oxford Road.

You could have Manchester Airport - Bury/Oldham/Rochdale e.t.c.

 

[table38]

Picc-Vic would certainly have led to more 25kV electrification north of Manchester, although hopefully something like the 314's rather than some sort of electric pacer

 

[tbtc]

If there were no trams in Manchester now?

I guess that if the Altricham/ Bury/ Oldham lines were retaining their "heavy rail" service (whether EMU/ DMU...) then the main points for a tram would be:

• A city centre link (if PICCVIC wasn't built in this hypothetical world)
• A link to Salford Quays (and other places with no rail service that have trams now)
• A link to the Trafford Centre (and other places with no rail service that still don't have trams)
• A link from southern Manchester to the Airport (possibly even Airport - Stockport too)
• Some P&R facility around the M60

Any tram wouldn't have to meet all five criteria, but I think that those would be the priorities (in no particular order)

Its an interesting question. I know more about the Sheffield trams, and there are certainly some changes that I'd make to them in hindsight - however I can't comment on what worked/failed on the Manchester system in the same way.

 

[Deerfold]

If there were no trams in Manchester now...what would you recommend for first Metrolink operations?

If there were no trams in Manchester now I don't think they'd stand a chance of gettting the funding for anything.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In this "hypothetical" world that is envisaged, how about a tram system that would follow part of the line of service 400 Trans-Lancs Express or the line of the service 456 originally run by The Coachmasters, which would serve all the main northern conurbation towns such as Wigan, Bolton, Bury, Heywood and Rochdale.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

In this "hypothetical" world that is envisaged, how about a tram system that would follow part of the line of the service 400 Trans-Lancs Express, which would serve all the main northern conurbation towns such as Wigan, Bolton, Bury, Heywood and Rochdale.

Light rail should serve to compliment heavy rail, not compete with it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Light rail should serve to compliment heavy rail, not compete with it.

Oh really. Where is the heavy rail service that currently links Bolton - Bury - Heywood at the present time for example and don't talk about the East Lancashire Railway serving part of this route which is not a scheduled rail service on the national network run by a TOC. You are most probably too young to remember that you could once travel by rail from Bolton to Rochdale, via Bury and Heywood, as I have done many times in the 1950's period.

Who said that Light Rail should not compete with Heavy Rail? This is only a hypothetical proposal in a hypothetical world....so there is no need for hypothetical pontification

 

[northwichcat]

Light rail should serve to compliment heavy rail, not compete with it.

Light rail is more suitable for a short route that's all stops whereas heavy rail are more suited to longer services.

The following scenario would be a good situation for the two to run side by side:
* Trains run from Chester to Sale to Manchester Piccadilly calling at only Sale between Altrincham and Manchester following the same lines they used pre-1989. Trains run every 30 minutes off-peak and every 20 minutes peak times.
* Tram-trains run between Altrincham and Bury using the Metrolink only section between Cornbrook and Victoria approximately every 10 minutes in frequency.
* Trains run between Heywood and Victoria via Bury hourly interworked by Rawtenstall and Victoria via Bury hourly, both limited stops between Bury and Victoria.

Interchangeable tickets would be available. Tram-trains would also be needed for Chorlton services while Eccles and Media City could both have services every 10 minutes to Piccadilly to give a 5 minute frequency between Piccadilly and Salford Quays all run by doubled up trams.

 

[tbtc]

Light rail should serve to compliment heavy rail, not compete with it.

Agreed.

I think that (in this hypothetical world) Manchester would be looking at a proper "tram" (low platforms, maybe compatible machines with another UK city etc), rather than the hybrid they have (which tries to be a direct train-replacement on some lines, but a "tram" on others).

If Bury/ Oldham/ Altricham remained as "heavy" rail then that'd leave Manchester's trams to concentrate on the kind of services that trams do elsewhere (shorter average journey times etc)

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Agreed.

I think that (in this hypothetical world) Manchester would be looking at a proper "tram" (low platforms, maybe compatible machines with another UK city etc), rather than the hybrid they have (which tries to be a direct train-replacement on some lines, but a "tram" on others).

If Bury/ Oldham/ Altricham remained as "heavy" rail then that'd leave Manchester's trams to concentrate on the kind of services that trams do elsewhere (shorter average journey times etc)

Exactly. Have trams to Eccles, Droylesdon, MediaCityUK, etc, places trains can't get to too easily, but leave larger conurbations and busier lines to trains - Sale, Bury, Oldham (a town of 120,000 people!) and Altrincham (though that does have 1 x 142 an hour to Stockport and Manchester).

 

[WestCoast]

I think it's important to make a distinction here:

Light Rail can mean anything from an on-street tramway right through to a segregated metro such as the Docklands Light Railway.

In an ideal world Greater Manchester (and the North West) would have an S-Bahn style network (fully integrated into the National Rail network) incorporating existing heavy rail lines such as to Crewe, Manchester Airport, Hadfield and Preston but also including the Bury/Altrincham/Oldham metrolink lines. Then in addition to this, a traditional tram network to Eccles/East Manchester/Oxford Road corridor.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Exactly. Have trams to Eccles, Droylesdon, MediaCityUK, etc, places trains can't get to too easily, but leave larger conurbations and busier lines to trains - Sale, Bury, Oldham (a town of 120,000 people!) and Altrincham (though that does have 1 x 142 an hour to Stockport and Manchester).

Many cities on the Continent take this approach, and it does work. A fully integrated network of trams, suburban trains or a metro and buses. Large UK cities should aspire to this. London is by far the closest at the moment.

 

[cslusarc]

the question I always wanted to ask:
Was it so cost prohibitive to convert High Level platforms to Low Level platforms at ex-rail stations that were converted to Metrolink tram stops that High Level platforms because neccessary to minimize capital expenditure?

 

[WatcherZero]

Well they had two dozen stations with platforms already built and often platform buildings and access ways tied to platform height, outweighed the disadvantage of half dozen high level stations in the city centre. The other main reason however was modern 100% low floor trams (which dont use two wheel axles) hadnt been invented then and they had something usually refered to as 70% low floor similar to low floor buses the entry level is in the centre and low but then theres steps up to seating above the axles on either end of the carriage.

Heres an example

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Exactly. Have trams to Eccles, Droylesdon, MediaCityUK, etc, places trains can't get to too easily, but leave larger conurbations and busier lines to trains - Sale, Bury, Oldham (a town of 120,000 people!) and Altrincham (though that does have 1 x 142 an hour to Stockport and Manchester).

I cannot fault your reasoning above (with the exception of the spelling of Droylesden) and, in the spirit of the questions posed by the OP, would put forward the reinstament of either of the two Manchester to Middleton tram services that ran in days long since gone. I have the first edition of Middleton Tramways by A.K.Kirby B.Sc., B.A. (Com), in my transport library that was first published in October 1976. There is an appendix that shows these two routes in the 1930's period, that cover the routes currently taken by the 17 bus service (via Collyhurst, Harpurhey and Blackley) and the 59 bus service (via Cheetham, Cheetham Hill, Heaton Park and Rhodes).

There was a heavy rail train service that served this route up to 1964 and I found this excellant for commuting puposes, when compared to the bus service in those days, when car ownership was still only light in North Manchester. The stations on this line were as folllows:-

Manchester Victoria
Miles Platting...............now closed
Newton Heath.............now closed
Moston
Middleton Junction.......now closed
Middleton...................now closed

 

[jonesy3001]

If there was no trams in manchester, i reckon GM Buses(1986-1994) would be still out on the roads.

 

[Samtron2000]

If there was no trams in manchester, i reckon GM Buses(1986-1994) would be still out on the roads.

They were sold to fund the Eccles line beyond Broadway, so is likely they may still have existed in some form

 

[WatcherZero]

But then deregulation ground down municipal bus companies one by one, theres 60 different bus companies in GM at the moment, even if GM Buses continued I would imagine there would be just as much competion.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Liverpool opted for the heavy rail solution which makes any extension to the network unlikley and expensive. Manchester's metrolink not only brings people into the heart of the city but also makes extending the system to previously unserved areas a more viable proposition.

 

[tom1649]

But then deregulation ground down municipal bus companies one by one, theres 60 different bus companies in GM at the moment, even if GM Buses continued I would imagine there would be just as much competion.

There are still a few municipals left. Nottingham City Transport being one example.

 

[WestCoast]

There are still a few municipals left. Nottingham City Transport being one example.

Looking at the bigger picture though, they are nowadays very much the exception. Wiki has the complete list, just 11 companies in total. The largest are Lothian Buses, Nottingham City Transport, Cardiff Bus and Blackpool Transport.

 

[Deerfold]

If there was no trams in manchester, i reckon GM Buses(1986-1994) would be still out on the roads.

The government of the time put in a deadline beyone which local authorities would not receive the proceeds of the sale of local authority bus companies. Too many authorities were pressured into selling off theirs. Manchester might have simply used the proceeds of the sale for something else.