TfW new service between Bristol and Cardiff

[Krokodil]

Actually centre of Cardiff and Bristol are only 25 miles apart,
Liverpool and Manchester are 31 miles

Cardiff and Bristol are 45 miles apart by road, and unless a more direct new Severn Rail Crossing has been built while I was looking the other way, the rail distance will be similar.

Crow flies distances are completely irrelevant when considering potential demand, we have to use the infrastructure available in the absence of any new plans.

Which is presumably a good argument for trains not to end at Cardiff or Bristol, but to carry on to stations on other side, so services serve areas directly

There's no where anywhere near Bristol that would offer extra through destinations equivalent to those east of Manchester that justify having both 2tph from Liverpool to Sheffield and the 2tph from Liverpool to Leeds.

Onward connections within Bristol are dire, swathes of the city only have buses in terms of public transport. No railway stations at all in the east of the city and most of the south, while the Supertram project proved politically impossible to implement because of council boundaries.

I thought the Bristol end was supposed to be regular frequency

Two hourly was mentioned.

That is speculative, can make journey now with existing tickets, but have to change trains in Cardiff

I spent many years dealing with whatever brainwaves TfW's pricing team spat out each week. I would bet on the full works of TOC-specific tickets and advances. So people travel out on a TfW service with a TOC-specific return. They come to return and find that they've just missed a train and that the next one that their tickets will be valid on is 1h57m away.

So is the argument that people can't have an improved service so as not to upset the franchisee, who has fewer than 200 days left?

No, the argument is that if you want to improve services, do it properly. Have some kind of integrated plan so that both the long-distance and local passengers get a regular service, rather than trying to thread a 2-car DMU uncomfortably between existing services such that it adds little value on its own.

 

[Falcon1200]

Actually centre of Cardiff and Bristol are only 25 miles apart,

But 38 miles by rail! No such discrepancy for the Liverpool/Manchester route.....

 

[The exile]

It feels as if GWR is demob happy and counting down the days, nixing any changes that might require effort to change their modus operandi.

If that were the case they’d be raising no objections - certainly not commercial ones- as by the time the service is up and running they’ll have been “demobbed”.

 

[Clarence Yard]

It feels as if GWR is demob happy and counting down the days, nixing any changes that might require effort to change their modus operandi.

GWR isn’t going anywhere and the DfT will still be calling the shots there after the date of transfer.

 

[vicbury]

From reading the document, this isn’t a stopping service. Patchway could probably warrant a better service but the majority of passengers between Lawrence Hill and Ashley Down will not be travelling to South Wales and it would remove the flexibility to run on the fast lines between Bristol and Filton. Severn Tunnel Junction gets a half-hourly service in the peak and is fairly barren at other times. Customers from Chepstow and Lydney also have connections at Gloucester for Bristol now that route has gone half-hourly.

As a Lydney commuter, it's news to me if tickets to Bristol are now valid via Gloucester. And the connections via Severn Tunnel Junctions are unreliable at best, unusable at worst.

 

[Parallel]

As a Lydney commuter, it's news to me if tickets to Bristol are now valid via Gloucester. And the connections via Severn Tunnel Junctions are unreliable at best, unusable at worst.

BR fares show there are fares via Gloucester and fares via Severn Tunnel Junction from Lydney. The Gloucester ones are more expensive. But it’s not rare for TOCs to offer cheaper fares on slower/less convenient routes.

 

[Kilopylae]

Is there actually the passenger demand to justify 4tph between Cardiff and Bristol however?

There's growth potential to be had from integrating the two cities more, but better connections would have to precede this, not wait for it to happen on its own.

GWR isn’t going anywhere and the DfT will still be calling the shots there after the date of transfer.

You don't think the DfT is calling these particular shots already?

 

[The exile]

You don't think the DfT is calling these particular shots already?

Clearly - as the use of “still” implies!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The main difference is some GWR services do Severn Tunnel Junction - Newport - Cardiff - Bridgend (or part of this) which is a contactless PAYG area, but GWR services are excluded. So whose logo is on the train matters to PAYG users.
Don't really get same problems along mid and North Wales border, as there is no contactless alternative to tickets.

I believe contactless is coming to the "North Wales Metro" soon, we'll see if Avanti participates.
In a GBR context, I expect there will always be differences between local and long-distance services over such things, just as there was between IC and RR services in BR days.
GWR is a rare hybrid animal of IC and local services.

 

[The exile]

I believe contactless is coming to the "North Wales Metro" soon, we'll see if Avanti participates.
In a GBR context, I expect there will always be differences between local and long-distance services over such things, just as there was between IC and RR services in BR days.
GWR is a rare hybrid animal of IC and local services.

Not that rare. EMR, Greater Anglia, GWR, Scotrail, and arguably Chiltern, SWR and even TfW themselves all mix them.

 

[Kilopylae]

Clearly - as the use of “still” implies!

Whoops, I can't read!

 

[Djgr]

I believe contactless is coming to the "North Wales Metro" soon, we'll see if Avanti participates.

We do already between Bidston and Wrexham, which is part of the North Wales Metro.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

We do already between Bidston and Wrexham, which is part of the North Wales Metro.

Yes but there's no Avanti involved in that flow (though Merseyrail and its contactless system is close by).
Contactless on Wrexham-Chester-Llandudno/Bangor would be a different matter, with parallel Avanti services.
My guess is that Avanri (soon to move to DFTO/GBR) would cooperate, as they don't run the prime services on the route.

 

[GoneSouth]

GWR is a rare hybrid animal of IC and local services.

Not that rare. EMR, Greater Anglia, GWR, Scotrail, and arguably Chiltern, SWR and even TfW themselves all mix them.

And works much better as a result.

 

[TransportHub]

And works much better as a result.

But those numbers GWR is the norm and LNER & AWC are the exceptions, being the only IC only operators (OAO excluded). Even XC runs local/regional services

 

[dk1]

Not that rare. EMR, Greater Anglia, GWR, Scotrail, and arguably Chiltern, SWR and even TfW themselves all mix them.

Anglia Railways was the forerunner of such things. Wasn't common to mix Intercity and local services at the time. I clearly recall after splitting from Anglia & Gatwick the Intercity side of Crown Point wasn’t interested in those pesky buses as the 153s & 150s they suddenly inherited were classed as.

 

[Djgr]

Yes but there's no Avanti involved in that flow (though Merseyrail and its contactless system is close by).
Contactless on Wrexham-Chester-Llandudno/Bangor would be a different matter, with parallel Avanti services.
My guess is that Avanri (soon to move to DFTO/GBR) would cooperate, as they don't run the prime services on the route.

I certainly would not allow TOCs an optout.

 

[Transilien]

I hope Plaid do a good and _pragmatic_ job of running Wales. I often felt that Labour in Wales was trying to 'out-Plaid' Plaid in their policies as they saw them as the largest threat, rather than fighting it by being different.

It’s probably why Welsh Labour have lasted so long in Wales, Scottish Labour tried to do the opposite with the SNP and they haven’t been successful in the Scottish Parliament since 2007.

 

[Annetts key]

Cardiff and Bristol are separated by about 23 miles of sea though, so that comparison is moot.

You may want to check on that, as the water is only just over half the distance, so much less than 23 miles. I would say less than 16 miles along a line between Cardiff to Bristol. The sea width is even less if you measure it at a different angle.

None of this is really relevant to who provides a train service and what type and level of service is provided.

Given however that there are four cities fairly close to one another (Newport, Cardiff, Bristol and Bath), a better and more frequent train service linking Newport, Cardiff Central and Bristol Temple Meads is preferable.

Certainly, I have been at either Newport or Cardiff Central and thinking, do I really have to wait that long before the next service to B.T.M.?

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Given however that there are four cities fairly close to one another (Newport, Cardiff, Bristol and Bath), a better and more frequent train service linking Newport, Cardiff Central and Bristol Temple Meads is preferable.

Certainly, I have been at either Newport or Cardiff Central and thinking, do I really have to wait that long before the next service to B.T.M.?

This is the important point, I think.

SE Wales and the West of England operate as largely separate economies. Connectivity between the two regions has been improved by the removal of Severn Bridge and Second Severn Crossing tolls but rail connectivity remains very poor and both regions would benefit from stronger transport and economic links.

 

[Torfaen]

I'm not sure I'd agree that removal of the bridge tolls has improved connectivity, since it has contributed to increased congestion of the motorway network in the area. As house prices have risen in the Bristol area, more and more people are commuting from the west side of the Severn. The rail service needs an uplift to cater for the daily commuter flow just as much as for improved connectivity between city centres. Capacity is better than it was a decade ago (IETs on the Cardiff-Taunton route now compared with a class 150 - plus a 153 if you were lucky) - but further enhancement is now needed.

 

[Dr Day]

I'm not sure I'd agree that removal of the bridge tolls has improved connectivity, since it has contributed to increased congestion of the motorway network in the area. As house prices have risen in the Bristol area, more and more people are commuting from the west side of the Severn. The rail service needs an uplift to cater for the daily commuter flow just as much as for improved connectivity between city centres. Capacity is better than it was a decade ago (IETs on the Cardiff-Taunton route now compared with a class 150 - plus a 153 if you were lucky) - but further enhancement is now needed.

Is the commuter flow actually between places that are on the direct rail network between West Wales and Bristol TM though? Or is it more 'out of town housing estate on the edge of Chepstow' to 'out of town industrial estate somewhere near Avonmouth', and variations thereof, where for a door-to-door journey rail may always struggle to be competitive, and better buses may be a better answer on the supply side? Or bringing back tolls on the long term demand side.

Despite all the political issues around cross-border rail, they are still far better funded and managed than cross-border buses in this part of the world.

 

[fishwomp]

Is the commuter flow actually between places that are on the direct rail network between West Wales and Bristol TM though? Or is it more 'out of town housing estate on the edge of Chepstow' to 'out of town industrial estate somewhere near Avonmouth', and variations thereof, where for a door-to-door journey rail may always struggle to be competitive, and better buses may be a better answer on the supply side? Or bringing back tolls on the long term demand side.

Despite all the political issues around cross-border rail, they are still far better funded and managed than cross-border buses in this part of the world.

Seems to me there have been a lot of evidence pointing to the M48 and so Chepstow and above to Bristol as a big flow. Seems to me that Severn Tunnel Jct could do with more services to Bristol TM and Parkway.. if only one could connect there from Chepstow and Lydney etc

 

[Kilopylae]

Or bringing back tolls on the long term demand side.

I don't disagree with the overall thrust of your post about the poor position of the rail line to soak up commuter flows, but this is an extraordinarily short-sighted suggestion. The future of the Bristol/Cardiff region is more integrated, not less.

Tomos y Tanc isn't wrong that, at present...

SE Wales and the West of England operate as largely separate economies.

...but this is a problem to be overcome, and we're already seeing the green shoots.

Trying to suppress it by reintroducing tolls to avoid short-term overcrowding would be a catastrophic misstep. Ironically, though, it's kind of the same attitude that GWR's objection to the new TfW services evinces.

 

[Djgr]

Is the commuter flow actually between places that are on the direct rail network between West Wales and Bristol TM though? Or is it more 'out of town housing estate on the edge of Chepstow' to 'out of town industrial estate somewhere near Avonmouth', and variations thereof, where for a door-to-door journey rail may always struggle to be competitive, and better buses may be a better answer on the supply side? Or bringing back tolls on the long term demand side.

Despite all the political issues around cross-border rail, they are still far better funded and managed than cross-border buses in this part of the world.

Given Bristol's traffic, I can't see buses ever being the meaningful solution.

 

[Envoy]

The T7 bus links Magor > Chepstow & Bristol city centre.

 

[Torfaen]

Seems to me there have been a lot of evidence pointing to the M48 and so Chepstow and above to Bristol as a big flow. Seems to me that Severn Tunnel Jct could do with more services to Bristol TM and Parkway.. if only one could connect there from Chepstow and Lydney etc

Does Severn Tunnel Junction have any scheduled services to/from Bristol Parkway?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jun 2026 ==

The T7 bus links Magor > Chepstow & Bristol city centre.

2 a day to/from Magor and it takes an hour an a half. If/when Magor gets its station, the journey time by train will be about 30 minutes.

 

[Annetts key]

Does Severn Tunnel Junction have any scheduled services to/from Bristol Parkway?

Not that I can see.

 

[Envoy]

Not that I can see.

STJ to Bristol Parkway will have a service when LUMO get up and running.

"Lumo – FirstGroup’s open access train brand – will now operate the service, running five return journeys a day between Carmarthen and London Paddington. The service will call at Llanelli, Gowerton, Cardiff, Newport, Severn Tunnel Junction and Bristol Parkway."

CARMARTHEN: Lumo to launch direct Carmarthen to London Paddington service in December 2027 — with stops at Llanelli and Gowerton - Swansea Bay News

Lumo has confirmed a December 2027 launch for a new direct Carmarthen to London Paddington service, calling at Llanelli and Gowerton, following years of regulatory battles and a change of operator from Grand Union to FirstGroup.

swanseabaynews.com

 

[Torfaen]

STJ to Bristol Parkway will have a service when LUMO get up and running.

Lumo will surely be planning to fill their seats with passengers making longer journeys than commuters just going 12 miles. Would they even sell tickets for STJ-BPW?