Routeing Point Calculator question

[scot_derailed]

Hi

This might seem like a stupid question but how are the routeing Point calculator results interpreted?

If I have an "Any permitted route" ticket valid for between Croy and Edinburgh. From the attached routeing Point calculator output. My understanding is I can choose to make the journey going via the following stations:

Falkirk High

Stirling

Camelon

Is this interpretation correct? If not, why not?

 

[Crithylum]

It has found valid origin routeing points. Now you need to go to the yellow pages, then the maps, then check that it doesn’t break any of the other rules.

Stirling is likely to fail the double-back rule. I would only do this if you can get an itinerary from an accredited retailer.

The other 2 seem perfectly fine looking at a map.

 

[scot_derailed]

Thanks Crithylum.

By the double back is this because I would pass through Larbert to get to Stirling from Croy and then pass back through Larbert to get from Stirling to Edinburgh?

It is interesting if I use ScotRail to buy a single ticket from Croy to Edinburgh the cost is £15.40

If I then use the "go via" option and include Stirling. The cost remains £15.40.

However it seems that because I am using a season ticket, I can't go via Stirling?

The rail ticket system is truly FUBAR!

 

[Watershed]

Hi

This might seem like a stupid question but how are the routeing Point calculator results interpreted?

If I have an "Any permitted route" ticket valid for between Croy and Edinburgh. From the attached routeing Point calculator output. My understanding is I can choose to make the journey going via the following stations:

Falkirk High

Stirling

Camelon

Is this interpretation correct? If not, why not?

Your interpretation is along the right lines, but you need to peruse the Routeing Guide in full to be sure that you can actually make use of all the Routeing Points that pass the fares check.

There is no general rule against doubling back in all circumstances. It is permitted in some cases and not in others.

In this case, Stirling passes as an origin Routeing Point and there is no negative easement which would rule out travelling via Stirling. This is why journey planners will validate it as a route on a through ticket from Croy to Edinburgh.

However it seems that because I am using a season ticket, I can't go via Stirling?

The rail ticket system is truly FUBAR!

The validity of season tickets is the same as single or return tickets in almost all cases. This journey is no exception.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is it actually possible to get from Croy to Edinburgh (via Camelon) without it being necessary to change at Larbert (or Stirling, if allowed) given that there are normally no services whatsoever running direct from Croy (via Camelon) towards Falkirk Grahamston / Edinburgh. Also, are there any negative easements / restrictions in place for journeys such as Croy to Edinburgh?

 

[scot_derailed]

Your interpretation is along the right lines, but you need to peruse the Routeing Guide in full to be sure that you can actually make use of all the Routeing Points that pass the fares check.

There is no general rule against doubling back in all circumstances. It is permitted in some cases and not in others.

In this case, Stirling passes as an origin Routeing Point and there is no negative easement which would rule out travelling via Stirling. This is why journey planners will validate it as a route on a through ticket from Croy to Edinburgh.


The validity of season tickets is the same as single or return tickets in almost all cases. This journey is no exception.

Hi Watershed,

Thanks for your response.

So this may not be a surprise but I actually attempted this journey yesterday going to Stirling.

The gateline staff were adamant (although had very limited knowledge of the routeing points) that I could not use my Croy to Edinburgh season ticket to Stirling. I ended up having to pay for a return ticket from Croy to Stirling.

Everything I can see from what has been said here and the information available in the over complicated routeing manual says I should have been allowed to use my ticket.

Do you agree that I should have been able to travel to Stirling unhindered?

Thanks

 

[Watershed]

Hi Watershed,

Thanks for your response.

So this may not be a surprise but I actually attempted this journey yesterday going to Stirling.

The gateline staff were adamant (although had very limited knowledge of the routeing points) that I could not use my Croy to Edinburgh season ticket to Stirling. I ended up having to pay for a return ticket from Croy to Stirling.

Everything I can see from what has been said here and the information available in the over complicated routeing manual says I should have been allowed to use my ticket.

Do you agree that I should have been able to travel to Stirling unhindered?

Thanks

The gateline staff were wrong to deny you travel, let alone charge you anything extra. It would have been incredibly simple for them to look it up on National Rail Enquiries or the ScotRail app if they were unsure, so refusing to look into it further was unacceptable.

I would raise a complaint with ScotRail asking for reimbursement of the additional ticket you were wrongly forced to buy, as well as an assurance that the gateline staff at Stirling will be briefed on the validity of your ticket (and other similar ones) via Stirling.

Is it actually possible to get from Croy to Edinburgh (via Camelon) without it being necessary to change at Larbert (or Stirling, if allowed) given that there are normally no services whatsoever running direct from Croy (via Camelon) towards Falkirk Grahamston / Edinburgh. Also, are there any negative easements / restrictions in place for journeys such as Croy to Edinburgh?

A change is necessary as you say, since services from Glasgow terminate at Falkirk Grahamston nowadays. It's not necessary to go via Stirling but it is permitted.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

A change is necessary as you say, since services from Glasgow terminate at Falkirk Grahamston nowadays.

Different route via Stepps and then Cumbernauld. Not via Croy.

 

[Watershed]

Different route via Stepps and then Cumbernauld. Not via Croy.

Ah sorry, I'm mixing those up. Either way, going via Stirling or even Larbert requires a change.

 

[scot_derailed]

The gateline staff were wrong to deny you travel, let alone charge you anything extra. It would have been incredibly simple for them to look it up on National Rail Enquiries or the ScotRail app if they were unsure, so refusing to look into it further was unacceptable.

I would raise a complaint with ScotRail asking for reimbursement of the additional ticket you were wrongly forced to buy, as well as an assurance that the gateline staff at Stirling will be briefed on the validity of your ticket (and other similar ones) via Stirling.


A change is necessary as you say, since services from Glasgow terminate at Falkirk Grahamston nowadays. It's not necessary to go via Stirling but it is permitted.

Watershed,

Don't worry I will definitely be making a very detail complaint to ScotRail. You will be an industry expert that I have consulted.

It does make you wonder how many other people are being incorrectly denied travel with a valid ticket.

I will post an update here once I get a response from ScotRail.

Thanks again for all your help and also to MCR warrior for engaging in the discussion.

 

[scot_derailed]

Hi @Watershed

So I finally got a response from ScotRail customer service and there response was not that surprising but was basically " ticket wasn't valid" with no evidence to contradict the routeing Point evidence I provided.

I replied asking them to escalate the complaint but doubt I will get anywhere.

Any advice on where to go next, escalate to the ombudsman?

 

[Watershed]

Hi @Watershed

So I finally got a response from ScotRail customer service and there response was not that surprising but was basically " ticket wasn't valid" with no evidence to contradict the routeing Point evidence I provided.

I replied asking them to escalate the complaint but doubt I will get anywhere.

Any advice on where to go next, escalate to the ombudsman?

It is worth asking them whether this is their 'letter of deadlock' so that you may take the matter to the Ombudsman. You don't necessarily need to intend to take it to the Ombudsman to ask for that, but in my experience the threat of an Ombudsman case can sometimes focus minds and result in a complaint being escalated up the 'food chain' to someone who has a better understanding.

Presumably it's something in the region of £7 to £9 you were forced to pay for the additional ticket, correct? So the problem you have is that it is probably too small an amount to be worth your time taking them to Court.

 

[scot_derailed]

I will wait to see what there reply is but I won't hold my breath.

To be honest I am so fed up with ScotRail since they have been nationalised that I am not prepared to let this one go. So I am more than happy to go to the Ombudsman.
Also because they are now owned by the Scottish government the other option I can use is to go to my local MSP.

At the moment it is around £9...

 

[Watershed]

Unfortunately the Ombudsman is notoriously incompetent and useless, since they don't employ anyone with subject matter expertise and often just seem to accept whatever the train company says as gospel. The company appointed as the Ombudsman previously did furniture cases and didn't even have a very good reputation in that area...

I think you might have a bit more luck with your MSP but obviously it depends on the individual politician as to how good they are.