Quite. No one truly knows what the fare evasion rate is because the vast majority don't get caught. Personally, I find it hard to believe that it is only 7% on the trams. I do hope it is, because that shows there is still a high-trust honest society (the trams are a fully unstaffed and ungated network).
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
TfL issues 69,000 penalty fares as fare evasion crackdown intensifies
- Thread starter Mawkie
- Start date
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Possibly naively, I would have assumed the figures might be based on things like revenue blocks where they do catch people. Then a further assumption that the split of passengers in said blocks are representative of passengers in general.
That doesn't show you all the passengers who are ticketless or fare evading. A contactless card presented for inspection will pass a revenue check but will not actually involve paying a fare if it was not tapped in at the start of the journey.
I imagine this is where the data comes from. As you say, this assumes that this is representative. For the trams, I imagine fare evasion is very time dependent - for the commuters returning to their family homes in Beckenham at 17:30 it will be almost zero, late night on a Saturday will be a different story.
There will be other sources of data like gateline assistants recording people pushing through gates (not on trams, but on tube and rail), bus drivers noting those refusing to pay, passenger complaints about others not paying (especially on buses where this causes delay) etc. The figure will be based on something more substantial than "choose a number between 1 and 10", but will have quite a few assumptions.
Mcr Warrior
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 8 Jan 2009
- Messages
- 17,265
Does that still result in a 'failed inspection charge" being levied?
It does, but the lack of or presence of a touch at the start of a trip is not necessarily a barometer of fare evasion.
Train Operating Companies are required to carry out regular ticketless travel surveys for the DfT. The surveyors check the tickets of thousands of passengers and calculate the ticketless trevel rate for each route and TOC.
Like political opinion polls, although the sample is a small percentage of overall passengers, it is a representative sample and will be pretty accurate and also give good trending analysis.
Like political opinion polls, although the sample is a small percentage of overall passengers, it is a representative sample and will be pretty accurate and also give good trending analysis.
WesternLancer
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 12 Apr 2019
- Messages
- 15,232
Yes these are interesting to know about and it must help.
But if I was a ne’re do well I’d not hang about to chat to those surveyors I don’t think. Nor would I believe nothing was going to happen if I got asked something by them.
Having seen them in action I thought they looked. to a fare evader like another face of officialdom best avoided by a quick visit to the train toilet or a sudden decision to alight at the next station.
In fact when I last got surveyed by two of them working the train that’s exactly what I thought they were. Some sort of back up ticket inspector.
Egg Centric
Established Member
When I got surveyed by them their English was so bad and their presentation so unofficial I'd told them I wasn't interested as assumed it was some kind of chugging operation! Only realised later what it was. I'm very dubious of their figures as I at least knew such a thing existed, most(?) wouldn't.
Someone avoiding or going to hide would be recorded as ticketless.
WesternLancer
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 12 Apr 2019
- Messages
- 15,232
Yes. Tho I doubt they’d even notice a skilled evader.
Not the ones I saw on the job anyway.
MatthewHutton
Member
How many of those are there?
Because if you’re smart enough to hold down a real job it doesn’t make sense to do this.
It’s like that lawyer who got done for fare evasion and then couldn’t work his high powered job anymore.
There will always be someone who gets through any ticket check, however thorough.
That said, they surveys are statistically representative of the overall position (in a similar sort of way to political opinion polls), and they are a good indicator of trends and whether fare evasion is increasing or decreasing.
WesternLancer
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 12 Apr 2019
- Messages
- 15,232
Well that’s a good point. But there are always nefarious characters who develop high skills in their activities of choice but who wouldn’t be employable in other contexts.
Then there are the fare evaders who I’ve actually worked with in respectable jobs. But they are pay when challenged types so wouldn’t dodge these surveyors.
But I digress.
Point is the surveys will help with the data but the data will never be critically reliable. In my view.
I think @Egg Centric point is notable. All the hall marks of low paid agency staff who maybe don’t care too much about accuracy of data (would they notice a short fare even?) employed by a survey contractor that’s put in the lowest bid for the job I fear.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
I agree with this in general.
There are loads of people short faring and using the old blocked card reacharound mechanism. You don't have to be intelligent to do either, in fact, quite the opposite, as there are vastly better ways to evade the fare if you put your mind to it.
BazingaTribe
Member
They might not know but their supervisors and whoever is analysing the data probably do know.
Having seen these people in operation I'd also be sceptical of the figures. Though the figures are useful for identifying trends, I'll grant, I don't think anyone really believes the ticketless rate on the DLR is below 5%.
Mattplans
Member
I saw a Tiktok video of this on the Great Eastern portion of the Elizabeth Line. Iirc, non-uniformed poor english speakers asking passengers for proof of payment and unable to show identification.
...... i got the feeling the guy was genuine and it has now just occurred to me it could've been one of these surveys. Unfortunately as a punishment he was heavily berated by this Essex lad. I think the video might've done the rounds on right-wing Twitter and comments were made about the inspector's immigration status.
On the flip side, it is perfectly reasonable for a passenger to be dubious of a ticket check from someone who couldn't explain their role and could not produce ID and was not wearing uniform. I'll see if I can find it.
gembercannelle
Member
Yet another delay repay to WMR. Yet again got email saying "ticket duration" missing. There is no ticket duration field on the original form. Just none. It is not possible to update the form following the link they sent either. The only way to get through is to send an email to customer relations or to phone them. Have not tried the latter yet, but the whole process seems to be a waste of human beings time.
JohnofWessex
Member
I understand that one US system fitted 'full height' gates at the gateline.
They recovered the cost of installation in less than a year
They recovered the cost of installation in less than a year
Mattplans
Member
That's NYC Subway you're thinking of. This type of gate is being rolled out, and is already in place at one station managed by Chiltern Railways.
www.railforums.co.uk
I would like to see them installed at Stratford
Types of ticket barriers used on the railway network.
To bring this thread up to date, High Wycombe is the Chiltern Railways station which has had the new taller CTS FEnX ticket gates installed. As mentioned previously, this is the first station in the country to have these ticket gates installed. High Wycombe's going to be the first to have them...
www.railforums.co.uk
Last edited:
aron2smith
Member
Yep! Lets just make the railway resemble a prison more and more!That's NYC Subway you're thinking of. This type of gate is being rolled out, and is already in place at one station managed by Chiltern Railways.
I would like to see them installed at StratfordTypes of ticket barriers used on the railway network.
To bring this thread up to date, High Wycombe is the Chiltern Railways station which has had the new taller CTS FEnX ticket gates installed. As mentioned previously, this is the first station in the country to have these ticket gates installed. High Wycombe's going to be the first to have them...
We really should not be installing any more barriers until EVERY valid ticket type works on them. Sick of my railcard discounted ticket or rover not working, always issues changing from one set of platforms to another at Liverpool Street too. Let alone the forced switch to QR tickets which barely ever want to scan!
As for full height barriers, NO!
BazingaTribe
Member
Stockholm has this too. The mainline station is ungated but with ticket checks on the airport shuttle, but Scylla and Charybdis have nothing on the Tunelbån gates. They let you out without a ticket (I was only there for a long weekend so by the time I was used to it I was on the way back to the airport) but I was a bit worried about decapitation if I lingered too long.
I don't know about revenue though. The place was also swarming with operatives though so it was possible to buy tickets right up against the gate line.
That’s only the first time you’re caught, though. Repeat offenders will find it quickly escalates - and blagging a false address is a lot harder unless you can forge very convincing ID!
I don't want them to. They present a hostile look that we really do not need. A better investment would be installing the monitoring tech that these already use as standalone units integrated with the already existing barriers.That's NYC Subway you're thinking of. This type of gate is being rolled out, and is already in place at one station managed by Chiltern Railways.
I would like to see them installed at StratfordTypes of ticket barriers used on the railway network.
To bring this thread up to date, High Wycombe is the Chiltern Railways station which has had the new taller CTS FEnX ticket gates installed. As mentioned previously, this is the first station in the country to have these ticket gates installed. High Wycombe's going to be the first to have them...
They're glass and look less hostile than the existing barriers. Though I'm not convinced that leaping the barrier is the issue, it's bumping them.
They're not glass though? There's a tiny bit of it and the rest is the opposing metallic bodywork, alongside the overhead bar. That all screams hostility.
Which these will not solve because they're not designed to be less pushable, they're designed to be taller and more opposing.