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High Speed 2 should be between newcastle and Edinburgh
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OK so Scotland's a Kingdom but we're all part of the same State as 4 seperate countries. We have no power individually to do what independent countries can do but as a collective we do. Britian is so much stronger than smaller independent countries. For what it's worth, I don't think it'll happen...it'll be 'devolution max' to coin a horrible phrase! Though I could be wrong but who wants to join the Euro right now?!!
I'm not sure what the euro has to do with Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or England wanting to end the union. One thing is certain, if Scotland was independent it would not mean the end of improving cross border transport. Simply look at France/Spain or Italy/Switzerland!
As it happens, I think we are a long way from the break up of the union though!
As it happens, I think we are a long way from the break up of the union though!
dickdarlington
Member
As a resident of the North East, and a regular traveller along the ECML I don't think that HS2 is high on the agenda. The competitiveness against the planes will come from HS2 to Leeds and then an arm linking the existing ECML near York (maybe opening the old Ripon line to Northallerton). Then as in earlier comments, improvements to the existing infrastructure north of Newc, with additional loops and the provision for more stopping trains. A stopper for the likes of Morpeth, Alnmouth and Dunbar (and Berwick) with loops for the slower trains to wait in would see a far better service in the borders region. This isn't to stop these stations retaining their direct link to London of course.
The A1 needs improving though. We can't escape it. It will be 3 lanes as far as Leeming from next year. But two lanes from there to Newc, and then between Morpeth and Dunbar pretty much still in the stone ages. Dual carriageway will assist with employment and commerce. The trains will help with commuting.
It is a sad state of affairs that it only takes me 15 minutes longer to go from Darlington to Edinburgh via the M74 than it does going up the A1.
The A1 needs improving though. We can't escape it. It will be 3 lanes as far as Leeming from next year. But two lanes from there to Newc, and then between Morpeth and Dunbar pretty much still in the stone ages. Dual carriageway will assist with employment and commerce. The trains will help with commuting.
It is a sad state of affairs that it only takes me 15 minutes longer to go from Darlington to Edinburgh via the M74 than it does going up the A1.
gordonthemoron
Established Member
never mind improving the A1, what about the A68?
Butts
Veteran Member
Correct Greenback Wales is a principality - hence The Prince of Wales
Scotland is a Kingdom whose current Monarch is Elizabeth II.
The Welsh were vanquished by the English long before we joined them in the Act of Union in 1707.
James VI of Scotland became James I of England after the death of Elizabeth I of England in 1603.
If you look at the Royal Coat of Arms or indeed the Union Flag there is representation of England, Scotland and Ireland -nothing from Wales on either.
Footnote HST Route should be Newcastle to Falkirk !!
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Butts
Veteran Member
Lets start a campaign to make Llanelli to be Capital of Wales - after all Cardiff has only had it since 1955
Sure, but how full are the trains? I can't remember the last time I actually struggled to get a seat on the WCML.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
God there has been some wibble on this thread! :roll: This ^^^^^^^^^^ this, is sense! Dick, i agree 100%
A the worlds proudest northeasterner i would like nothing more than for us to be on HS but it is never going to happen. Does the OP seriously suggest that Newcastle-Edinburgh become an HS line? really?
If you go via the A74(M) then you have still have 40 miles of single carriageway on the A702 from Abington to Edinburgh and this can be quite slow at times. It's surprising that Edinburgh doesn't have any direct links to England of dual carriageway standard. As for improving the A68, forget it. The terrain the road passes through would make any upgrade very difficult and building a new dual carriageway through the Cheviot Hills AONB is not going to be acceptable. If any road between Newcastle and Edinburgh is to be improved it will be the A1.
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tbtc
Veteran Member
Lets start a campaign to make Llanelli to be Capital of Wales - after all Cardiff has only had it since 1955
Where was "capital" before 1955
The A68 is a hell of a road - am surprised there's not more accidents on it - great fun on an empty road, but so many blackspots - http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebustocrookes/5946264387/ if you don't know the road
Really?
That's quite a surprise - I know the A1 is bad but... that's amazing
True - the roads are built to suit where the demand is (which is the way that the railways should be run, hence my arguments about train services to suit political boundaries...) - there have been a lot of cross border roads improved in Europe in recent years (Sweden to Denmark being one very obvious one!) - an Independent Scotland would be just as dependant upon improved road/rail links to England (and beyond) as a non-independent one.
See the threads on here about how busy Euston gets, and the way that demand has grown and grown.
As a Scot living in the north of England, I have to put tribal loyalties to one side and accept that the most obvious place to start HS2 is London to Birmingham.
And that should be done at any environmental cost when less destructive routes are available? Birmingham isn't on a direct route between London and Manchester/Leeds.
tbtc
Veteran Member
Less destructive routes? Do you mean ones which don't serve major centres of population?
At HS2 speeds, travelling "via Birmingham" will be the fastest route from London to Manchester.
I mean, Newcastle isn't on a direct line between London and Edinburgh...
But would be even faster if you didn't have to go via Birmingham. There's nothing to stop you building a line following the M1 corridor and then having a branch off that so that trains from Birmingham to the north can join the formation. The current Birmingham to London journey time is not exactly poor so I doubt there will be a large modal shift from other forms of transport on the Birmingham to London route as rail will already have a large share of this route. From Manchester this is not the cast though as faster journey times have to potential to end air travel between London and Manchester.
There's not much in it and the connection to the WCML makes sense. It'll reduce journey times from further north too encouraging a degree of model shift. The argument that Birmingham is way out of the way for services to Sheffield and Leeds isn't entirely true. I agree it's not the most direct, but there's not as much in it as I thought. Here's what anyone who feels the same should do, as I did...Look at a map of England and really look at the gap between Lichfield in the Birmingham area where HS2 is supposed to Join the WCML and then look at how far it is to Derby in miles, then get a map of Europe and look at the size of that kink to Derby on a European scale and you see it's nothing but a tiny flick from west East up the centre of the UK to Leeds. People really forget how tiny Britain is from west to east.
I still have reservations about it being 2 track in the southern end though. There's just no way this won't be at capacity almost from the start!
I still have reservations about it being 2 track in the southern end though. There's just no way this won't be at capacity almost from the start!
It's not just about that though, there are environmental considerations. If you go straight to Birmingham will result in ploughing through the Chilterns AONB. The Chilterns AONB could be avoided by going direct to the North (which would still encourage a modal shift from air) with the possibility of a branch to link Birmingham to the line.
True Zo, true! God knows it would also avoid the current teapot crew battles as well that would make life a whole lot easier! It would make sense also from the perspective that the expanding suburbia of London in Herts and Bedfordshire would also benefit from a javelin type train that could also run on it, whereas the suburbs within the chilterns are there but after that there's nothing until Birmingham whereas slightly further to the right as you suggest, there's continuous settlements with modest gaps all the way to the west midlands. The route would offer improved commuter high-speed links too. Ok let's try this route instead; wish they could change the route now I've had a look!
tbtc
Veteran Member
Running London - Birmingham - Manchester allows trains to serve three markets:
- London - Birmingham
- Birmingham - Manchester
- London - Manchester
Running on HS2 via Birmingham will still be faster than running on existing MML/ ECML services from London to Sheffield/ Leeds etc - as well as giving these cities faster Birmingham links (so taking pressure off XC).
Maybe HS3 will serve the M1 corridor - HS2 isn't the last line, we'll have more in the longer run
However, there is nothing stopping Javelin type units branching off towards these settlements on old rail formations.
Personally, the two big mistakes are no 4 track sections and no service of the Chilterns. Serve the Chilterns and Milton Keynes (even Oxford) will reasonably fill four tracks.
London to Birmingham is currently served quite well, London to Manchester would be covered by the M1 route, Birmingham to Manchester can easily be covered by a new line from Birmingham to the M1 route.
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